On August 24 2011 09:48 BlackAut wrote: u surprised that the damn al quida is an american creation (back then gainst the russians) k go check it out, if i lie don t troll me then plx :3
That's a terrible lack of understanding. I feel compelled to explain a bit of the history behind this statement. Allow me:
Among all of the world's ancient religions, Islam was the last to arrive in Afghanistan, in AD 654, when Arab armies poured through India and into Afghanistan after the death of the Prophet Mohammed. Ancient peoples frequently swept through Afghanistan on the way to India - either to occupy it, or to continue on to Persia. Persians, Greeks, Turkic tribes, Central Asians, and Genghis Khan's Mongols all impregnated Afghanistan with diverse social, ethnic, and cultural legacies. Thus today we are left with a mosaic Afghanistan that includes Tajiks in the north near the Uzbeks and the Hazaras, a pattering of Balochs among the majority Pashtun belt of the south, as well as Kyrgyz, Nuristani, Pamiri, Turkmen, and others.
In 1504, Prince Babur of the Ferghana Valley (modern day Uzbekistan) led an army to conquer Kabul and India, thus establishing his Moghul Dynasty that would stand firmly until 1857. During this time the Moghuls in India, the Safavids in Iran, and the Uzbek Kingdom in Central Asia began to fall into a sharp decline - due in large part to political chaos and civil war turmoil. At this time the Pashtun tribes of Afghanistan emerged and Afghanistan became, for the first time, its own state. Pashtun and Afghanistan were interchangeable at this point, as now true Afghans were seen as Pashtuns, given the relative chaos around them. There were two major groups of Pashtun Afghans - the Ghilzai and the Abdali. To backtrack a little, let me explain something - in 1701 the Ghilzai tribes people revolted against the Iranian Safavids. This rise in Ghilzai power caused the Abdali people to form a confederation, and in 1747 all tribes held a Loya Jigra (grand political meeting that still holds true power today), in Kandahar, to choose a leader of the increasingly disorganized people. They elected General Ahmad Shah Abdali as their king.
At this point, Ahmad Shah Abdali changed his name to Durrani, thus ushering in the Durrani Dynasty. This man became what is known today as the Father of the Nation. The Durranis relocated the capital to Kabul in the late 1700s and consolidated all of the wild region of northern Afghanistan. Afghanistan truly became its mosaic self once again, encompassing Hazaras and Tajiks of the north among other peoples, in addition to the majority Pashtun groups. Rivalry between these differing ethnic groups - and between the Durranis and the Ghilzai - spawned endless bickering, violence, and downright civil war at times. Nonetheles, the country was governable and sustainable despite its precarious, impoverished state.
So, at this point, certain European empires began to gain interest in the region during a time of rising imperialism. Both the British Empire and Tsarist Russia attempted to conquer Afghanistan but were thwarted by harsh conditions. Instead, these two juggernauts opted to battle for leverage by converting Afghanistan into a client state. These two empires poured money and spies into Afghanistan in what came to be known as "The Great Game". Finally, at the close of the nineteenth century, both empires agreed to delineate the borders of Afghanistan. Afghanistan was divided into states, but remained as a nation-state. Tribes and ethnic groups were divided, with Russia to the north, Persia to the west, and India to the east.
King Abdul Rehman (known as Iron Amir), in the late 1800s, used British funding to establish Afghanistan's first standing army. With his established force, he began to employ brutal methods of control (which later inspired certain Taliban efforts). He suppressed countless revolts by the Hazaras, Uzbeks, and Tajiks, thus ending their "Great Game" partitioned autonomy and once again bringing them under the control of a central Kabul government. The Durrani Dynasty perpetuated onward in relative stability until 1973 when then king Zahir Shah (ruled since 1933) was ousted in a coup. Sardar Mohammed Daud, Zahir Shah's brother in-law and cousin, overthrew the king with the support of Afghanistan's nascent communist parties influenced by Russia. Afghanistan was suddenly declared a republic, with presidential government authority. Once again, Afghanistan - unable to sustain itself without foreign support - fell into a pseudo-conflict between to nations. Both the US and Russia began pouring funds into Afghanistan in efforts to best one another in the Cold War. Afghanistan resisted getting involved, but could not deny the support it needed. Between 1956 and 1978 Afghanistan received around $530 million from the United States, and over $2.5 billion from Russia. As a client state, it depended on this foreign aid for up to 40 percent of its budget. The United States sought to foment trouble in Afghanistan, and Russia sought to instill an austere communist rule. Although Afghanistan tried to play a role of balancing the powers, Daud overrode Afghanistan's balancing act.
Mohammed Daud tilted decisively towards the Soviets, thereby increasing the power of the two rival communist parties: the Khalq and the Parcham. This decisive tilt led to a crackdown on the fledgeling Islamist movements that had just begun to emerge. The followers of the nascent Islamic fundamentalist movement fled to Pakistan in 1975 to avoid arrest or death. Pakistan became infuriated by Daud's support of Pakistani Pashtuns and Baloch Marxists, and conveniently found an opportunity to retaliate: via the Islamist movement (linked to the Muslim Brotherhood and Pakistan's jamiat-e-Islami). Pakistan enlisted the Islamists under the training of Lt.-Gen. Naseerullah Babar, head of the paramility Frontier Corps in Pakistan. They were sent back into Afghanistan to commence a guerrilla war against the communist parties and Daud -- they were quickly crushed. Among the Islamists were Gulbuddin Hikmetyar, Burhanuddin Rabbani, and Ahmad Shah Masud, who would soon become very prominent in a war against the Soviet Union.
In 1978, Daud's authoritarian rule finally broke down. His own army murdered him, his family, and his presidential guard. These Marxist officers then attempted to impose a purist-style Soviet rule over Afghanistan that was doomed to fail. The two rival parties - the Khalq and the Parcham - began a terrible internecine conflict that left many dead, and much of the city aflame. After a series of short-lived rulers and assassination, the Parchamis established Babrak Karmal as their leader. This Parchami establishment was made possible by the invasion and support of the Soviet Union in December, 1979. The Soviet Union had finally been enticed into invasion by the growing strength of the Mujahedin insurgency and the fighting between the communist parties.
Afghanistan was shot directly into the center of the Cold War. United States president Ronald Regan pledged to "roll back communism", while Afghan mullahs and political leaders pledged a jihad against communism and the Soviet Union. 5 million fled to Pakistan and west to Iran. Over the next decade, the United States and its European and Arab allies poured billions of dollars' worth of aid and arms to the Mujahedin. This money was routed via Pakistan through military dictator General Zia ul-Haq. ZIA denied the CIA any rights to monitoring the situation directly; he and Pakistan's Inter-services Intelligence Directorate (ISI) used their newfound US wealth to become a state within a state.
By 1989, the Soviet occupation was faltering due to severe political setbacks at home, and a lack of commitment on the ground in Afghanistan. The Soviets withdrew in 1989, and collapsed just two years later. The last remaining communist strongman, Mohammed Najibullah, stepped down in 1992 due to intense fighting among his own ranks. A UN plan to transfer power failed, and Afghanistan quickly plummeted into a state of chaos once again. Thus commenced a race for Kabul between the Pashtun forces of Hikmetyar in the south and the Tajik and Hazara forces of Rabbani and his commander Masud. Masud and his forces won after many weeks of terrible shelling and rocketing in Kabul. The capital fell into the hands of non-Pashtuns for the first time in three hundred years. An agreement between the Mujahedin declared a rotating presidency, with spiritual leader Sibghatullah Mujaddedi as first ruler. He was the first president for the first four months of the new Islamic Republic of Afghanistan, with Hamid Karzai as his deputy foreign minister.
So now to the biggest point:
At this point, the Soviet withdraw was not the only withdraw. That of the United States followed immediately after, having won the Cold War. Washington had no further interest in the region - a mistake that has manifested itself today to an unfathomable degree. A critical power vacuum of instability was left behind, for which the United States would pay a disgustingly high price a decade later. The Afghan people were abandoned, and the Mujahedin were left to their own devices. The CIA wanted nothing more to do with the region, and so it handed over its partial handle of the situation to Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. Pakistan viewed Afghanistan as its poor fifth province, while Saudi Arabian princes viewed it as a land in which they could hunt bustards and plain turkeys. The never truly united Mujahedin parties broke up into warring factions - the most bloodthirsty being that of Hikmetyar to the east of Kabul. His rival was the Tajik commander Ahmad Masud under Rabbani, who had become president after Mujaddedi. A renewed civil war broke out, and once again, Kabul was shelled to pieces in 1993.
By 1994 the country was disintegrating. Warlords ruled the country. These warlords taxed the people, installed highway tolls, raped and pillaged villages of people, and worse. They destroyed any semblance of infrastructure. Shunned education. It was time for another change in Afghanistan, and its people were desperate. At this time emerged the Taliban - a direct consequence of these pathetic, appalling conditions. Led by Mullah Omar, these were frustrated young men who sought a real reform of their land. They had fought against the Soviets and then returned to their madrassas in villages in Pakistan or Afghanistan to continue with their religious studies. These men banded together, and called themselves "Talibs", or "religious students who seek justice and knowledge". They wanted to restore peace, disarm the population, and enforce Islamic Sharia law. They were good people initially, but were taken over shortly after by the ISI as a proxy, according to Karzai. The Taliban consolidated their men into a considerable force, and seized Kandahar in the winter of 1994. In 1996 they reached Kabul. By this time, however, the Taliban had become a perverse version of its former self. After driving Ahmad Masud to the north, they no longer wished to call a Loya Jigra and establish a fair, peaceful establish of government. They had become heavily influenced by extremist Islamic teachings in Pakistan along with a severe perversion of the Pashtunwali, or Afghan social code. The intellectual shortcomings of the Taliban and their extremism allowed them to fall prey to Al Qaeda's global jihad policy. The Taliban became more and more influenced by Al Qaeda philosophy, and by 1998 were completely controlled by Al Qaeda. Al Qaeda utilized the Taliban to conscript thousands of young men to enact their wars. They spawned widespread resentment, and returned Afghanistan to all-out war between ethic Tajiks of the north and Pashtun Taliban/Al Qaeda. Again, the US simply stood by and allowed this civil war to carry on. It was not interested in the region under the Clinton administration. Under the guidance and logistical support of bin Laden, Al Qaeda and the Taliban worked to establish a nexus of terrorist camps in Afghanistan that would serve to fulfill Al Qaeda's desire for global terrorism and perverted jihad. Utilizing this alliance and these conditions, bin Laden was able to muster thousands upon thousands of Islamic extremist supporters.
Thus spawned to global terror threat, Al Qaeda.
That's all for now. The rest has been/is unfolding today.
There's a book called 'Afghanistan: A Military History from Alexander the Great to the Fall of the Taliban'. You can find it in audiobook format on some torrent sites. for those interested,
On August 24 2011 11:16 Hekisui wrote: GeyzeR, everything you brought up has not only been false, but extremely embarrassing. I bet I could do a way way better job defending Gaddafi if I tried.
So then you decide to go on an off topic rant? Why still bother. No one will take you seriously. Also, I think you need to have a debate on morality with yourself. What you are doing is immoral.
Actually, considering you tell us to read the Green Book, which is an extremely strange thing to suggest, this is pretty fishy. No normal person would ever suggest this.
Is this a hoax? Does Gaddafi really pay you? You are a son of someone in the Gaddafi regime? This can't be for real.
I do not defend Gaddafi, I just showed an alternative point of view. Maybe you want to live in a world with just one, the "right" point of view.. then sorry.
I can tell you that the Green Book was suggested to the ex pats(by expats, I guess normal people) going to live in Libya. Just to understand better how the society works. I thought we are discussing Libya.
I do not see problem even if someone reads "Mein Kampf". It has some historical value. Even Germany is going to republish it "for educational purposes in schools and universities" I find your reaction to my suggestion inadequate.
On August 24 2011 12:08 Joey Wheeler wrote: let sheep be sheep, but saying gadhafi is responsible for destroying his country is total bullshit
And what if someone calls you a sheep for thinking that? It's not exactly a strong position to take - that whole nonconformist "you people are sheep" position that certain types like to toss around. In any case, I'd like to quote Joey Wheeler in response to your views on these Libyan events:
On August 08 2011 05:46 Joey Wheeler wrote: As a North American I'm envious of the strong will these European communities possess. Riots are simply a part of freedom, where the government and the authorities should be afraid of the people.And when a government is afraid of the people it's a lot more likely they'll become oppressive and corrupted, which is what is happening in North America, simply because the media has turned the people into meek obedient sheep.
On August 24 2011 08:33 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: I like how the news said that the ICC confirms the capture of some son of qaddafi, and then when it was overwhelmingly obvious that it was bogus, they said the opposite. Oh propaganda x).
I don't like those lybian govt. idiots, but it's funny how often the US and Co. governments/media perpetrate myths as we speak. Fortunately, that guy met with reporters the same day and right away the news agencies take back what they said. How embarrassing for the propaganda makers hehe. I love comedy .
Yeah, sure: "Rebels and NATO killed 1300 in one day" all over the media! That is not possible, does not matter how many killed. I personally do not believe in such high number. Libyan government is interested to increase causalities.
And the American government is interested in decreasing the number of casualties from however many have actually died. Woah! We see bullshitting on both sides!
My fucking god...
It's war 101 you spread those kind of stories to break morale when the enemy morale allready seems low. Same reason you had stories of Gaddaffi's death floating around. For someone pretending to be so smart that he can look through "teh propeganda" you really fail to understand even basic modern warfare.
On August 24 2011 08:33 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: I like how the news said that the ICC confirms the capture of some son of qaddafi, and then when it was overwhelmingly obvious that it was bogus, they said the opposite. Oh propaganda x).
I don't like those lybian govt. idiots, but it's funny how often the US and Co. governments/media perpetrate myths as we speak. Fortunately, that guy met with reporters the same day and right away the news agencies take back what they said. How embarrassing for the propaganda makers hehe. I love comedy .
Yeah, sure: "Rebels and NATO killed 1300 in one day" all over the media! That is not possible, does not matter how many killed. I personally do not believe in such high number. Libyan government is interested to increase causalities.
And the American government is interested in decreasing the number of casualties from however many have actually died. Woah! We see bullshitting on both sides!
My fucking god...
It's war 101 you spread those kind of stories to break morale when the enemy morale allready seems low. Same reason you had stories of Gaddaffi's death floating around. For someone pretending to be so smart that he can look through "teh propeganda" you really fail to understand even basic modern warfare.
I see detecting satire isn't one of your strong points.
Seeing as your ability to comprehend is lacking, allow me to explain in order to enlighten you and bring you to a slightly higher level of understanding and knowledge.
In this thread are many nationalistic nutjobs (you seem to fit into that category as well, and surprisingly, this post to which I am replying is the most reasonable and objective I've seen out of you) who claim that if American media or news that serves the American cause claims something, no matter how ludicrous that even a birth-defected chimp would know it's bs, it has to be entirely true. No if's, and's, or but's about it.
If it's from the enemy, it has to be entirely false.
This is the ideology and reasoning of some people in this thread, whom I was satirizing in my post by expressing obviously sarcastic surprise and awe.
What did I do? I basically cited one of the infinite cases of bullshitting in US media in order to show the thick-headed fellows in this thread that bs'ing occurs on all sides (probably the most from the US by far in this and countless other events). I satirized their lacking common sense and ability to see the very obvious of the way things work. I realize I made a serious reply to you earlier in this thread to teach you some common sense on the way things work, but when something is so ludicrous and unbelievably inane, may as well throw in a little sarcasm. You see how that works?
I guess satire and sarcasm don't exist in the Netherlands. That's a pity. Well, I hope you learned something, and that you can continue to learn and become more intelligent. It was my pleasure teaching you .
Now play nice.
Umm, since I'd like to give credit where credit is due, I guess thanks for telling me what I've already known for a very long time. lol
So apparently some in-depended journalist are being targeted by NATO and the MSN
Journalist Mahdi Nazemroaya and Thierry Meyssan (these are journalist that give reports that are contradictory to the MSM and popular believes in Libya)
Also www.voltairenet.org/en (this is the site of Thierry Meyssan) is now offline, it used to work yesterday and i remember they had an article about how their journalist were threatened in Libya by NATO and the MSN.
Mahdi Nazemroaya explicit said that CNN threatened them.
I would all like to remind you a document of wikileaks from the Ministry of Defense
Quote John Pilger: "The coverage of war should be this eyewitness but it should also try to tell us the why. That means journalists not colluding but investigating. One of the most revealing documents released by Wikileaks was a 2,000-page Ministry of Defence document that equated investigative journalists with terrorists. That reflects the lethal stupidity that runs like a current through the war-making industry. It says they are afraid of the truth."
24th morning the NATO ground operation has started. French hospital ship noticed near Algeria. Constantly receives helicopters. Tripoli for the moment under control of NATO. Libyan army left the city. On TV it is still a group of several hundreds fresh rebels that defeated Khamis 's 3500 men brigade. The loyalist location and plans are unknown for now.
You will really get confused when you begin to realise those journalists are a part of the western media wich is supposedly corrupt to the bone, part of the new world order, and loyal to NATO.
I have a little conspiracy of my own.
GeyzeR 30 posts Saiji 42 posts rEpulse 12 posts
Near exclusive posting in Libya thread, same idiotic reasoning, randomly capsing a letter.
Illuminati? Not saying he is but can we take the risk?
On August 24 2011 09:48 BlackAut wrote: u surprised that the damn al quida is an american creation (back then gainst the russians) k go check it out, if i lie don t troll me then plx :3
That's a terrible lack of understanding. I feel compelled to explain a bit of the history behind this statement. Allow me:.............
Thus spawned to global terror threat, Al Qaeda.
That's all for now. The rest has been/is unfolding today.
Im afraid this is a totally flawed history of what actually occurred. Voluminous analysis does not necessary mean sounder conclusions.
Observe this interview with Zbignew Brezinski who was the national security adviser to Jimmy Carter from 1978-81
Question: The former director of the CIA, Robert Gates, stated in his memoirs ["From the Shadows"], that American intelligence services began to aid the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan 6 months before the Soviet intervention. In this period you were the national security adviser to President Carter. You therefore played a role in this affair. Is that correct?
Brzezinski: Yes. According to the official version of history, CIA aid to the Mujahadeen began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan, 24 Dec 1979. But the reality, secretly guarded until now, is completely otherwise Indeed, it was July 3, 1979 that President Carter signed the first directive for secret aid to the opponents of the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul. And that very day, I wrote a note to the president in which I explained to him that in my opinion this aid was going to induce a Soviet military intervention.
Q: When the Soviets justified their intervention by asserting that they intended to fight against a secret involvement of the United States in Afghanistan, people didn't believe them. However, there was a basis of truth. You don't regret anything today?
B: Regret what? That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap and you want me to regret it.
The United States created mujadeen groups and sent then into Afghanistan specifically to draw the Soviets into the trap. These forces would become Al Qaeda.
The next mission that these fighters embarked upon was to break up Yugoslavia following the soviet fall where these Jihadees attacked Serbia, committing atrocities and provoking reprisals in order to justify the bombing of that country. The fruits of this are the military bases being built in Bulgaria and Romania.
Another outing for these forces was deployment into Russia. The west sent large numbers of well armed Jihadees into southern Russia to continue the break up of that country. The Russians expecting to find Chechens peasants with muskets sent in a few troops with poor preparedness however what they found were thousands of US backed Jihadees with laser guided anti tank missiles. Over 5 thousand Russian army soldiers died in the ensuing blood bath. Putin finally employing immense force of arms wiped out the Chechen insurgents out some years later.
I assure you no peasant revolt can reap such havoc.
The fact is that in typical form just as in the Yugoslavian war Al Qaeda forces are fighting as the ground troops of imperial aggression on the part of NATO. The murderous rebels slaughtered every black person in Benghazi when they seized control (look it up) the western press white washed the whole incident saying that only 'some mercenaries' had been slaughtered. The reality is that this war is nothing but brazen imperial aggression where NATO is wielding brigades of murderous mercenary forces and islamic radicals ran by westen officers and with air support raping and pillaging the land as the propagandists swarm hysterically proclaiming that the reason we are conducting terror bombing on Libya is to protect civilian lives. Shocking in its hipocracy to say the least!
well credit to what gaddafi has done to help his country but i'm not sure what exactly started the uprising. and credit to UN for helping out civilians however....
TBH this whole rebel thing is kind of bullshit because the rebels lost again and again until they got UN (reads the rest of the world) to support them. There were more loyalists than rebels but the rest of the world we decided we knew best and helped the rebels until the loyalists caved. it seems to me like from the start it was a large bully vs little guy situation.
On August 24 2011 19:09 Saji wrote: So apparently some in-depended journalist are being targeted by NATO and the MSN
Journalist Mahdi Nazemroaya and Thierry Meyssan (these are journalist that give reports that are contradictory to the MSM and popular believes in Libya)
Also www.voltairenet.org/en (this is the site of Thierry Meyssan) is now offline, it used to work yesterday and i remember they had an article about how their journalist were threatened in Libya by NATO and the MSN.
Mahdi Nazemroaya explicit said that CNN threatened them.
I would all like to remind you a document of wikileaks from the Ministry of Defense
Quote John Pilger: "The coverage of war should be this eyewitness but it should also try to tell us the why. That means journalists not colluding but investigating. One of the most revealing documents released by Wikileaks was a 2,000-page Ministry of Defence document that equated investigative journalists with terrorists. That reflects the lethal stupidity that runs like a current through the war-making industry. It says they are afraid of the truth."
According to some people (cant confirm this) it seems that the original videos with Mahdi Nazemroaya are being removed from youtube
A NATO sniper shot the Hezbollah journalist in Tripoli as he was sitting by the pool just the other day. The murderous targeting of antiwestern journalists is shameful. I think both sides have enough sense that we wont see to much of it but Franklin Lamb the Hezbollah journo NATO apparently hates enough to snipe.
On August 24 2011 22:13 Mykill wrote: well credit to what gaddafi has done to help his country but i'm not sure what exactly started the uprising. and credit to UN for helping out civilians however....
TBH this whole rebel thing is kind of bullshit because the rebels lost again and again until they got UN (reads the rest of the world) to support them. There were more loyalists than rebels but the rest of the world we decided we knew best and helped the rebels until the loyalists caved. it seems to me like from the start it was a large bully vs little guy situation.
Because in the modern world of guns and video surveilance it is impossible for a minority to control a majority.
On August 24 2011 21:53 zalz wrote: You will really get confused when you begin to realise those journalists are a part of the western media wich is supposedly corrupt to the bone, part of the new world order, and loyal to NATO.
I have a little conspiracy of my own.
GeyzeR 30 posts Saiji 42 posts rEpulse 12 posts
Near exclusive posting in Libya thread, same idiotic reasoning, randomly capsing a letter.
Illuminati? Not saying he is but can we take the risk?
Its funny because according to a government tied think tanker named Cass Sunstein they want to get government agents to get on the net and shape views the way they want. No doubt they do this however I wonder if we would find them on TL. More likely they are working to manipulate Syrian youth to rise up to support western imperial objectives.
EPT
.
