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MasterCard Website Down- Hackers support WikiLeaks - Page 4

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GnaR
Profile Joined June 2010
United States73 Posts
December 08 2010 15:18 GMT
#61
This is just like anon's huge attack on the RIAA website. Derp, site went down for a night, OH NOES.
JWD
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States12607 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-08 15:33:00
December 08 2010 15:18 GMT
#62
On December 09 2010 00:13 Aim Here wrote:

Aim Here, I'd love if you responded to my post quoting yours, on page 2. Imagine some property (say, a small office building, or a company car) that is worth less to MasterCard than a few hours of uptime on mastercard.com. Would you also be in favor of 4chan blowing up that building, or torching that car?

(Note that the car/building hypo is favorable to you, because destruction of the car or office building wouldn't be as much harm to MC's customers as taking down mastercard.com)
✌
Deadlyfish
Profile Joined August 2010
Denmark1980 Posts
December 08 2010 15:18 GMT
#63
So Mastercard didnt support wikileaks, so a bunch of hackers though it would be a great idea to annoy innocent people by closing the mastercard site down?

I think the logic behind it was "America is trying to shut down wikileaks, better hack MC site". You sure are "rebels" haha

I think someone should hack 4chan, that would be too ironic.
If wishes were horses we'd be eating steak right now.
D10
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Brazil3409 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-08 15:27:17
December 08 2010 15:26 GMT
#64
On December 09 2010 00:18 Deadlyfish wrote:
So Mastercard didnt support wikileaks, so a bunch of hackers though it would be a great idea to annoy innocent people by closing the mastercard site down?

I think the logic behind it was "America is trying to shut down wikileaks, better hack MC site". You sure are "rebels" haha

I think someone should hack 4chan, that would be too ironic.


I like the initiative.

Unilateral punishment is never good when dealing in huge world affairs.
" We are not humans having spiritual experiences. - We are spirits having human experiences." - Pierre Teilhard de Chardin
SCC-Faust
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States3736 Posts
December 08 2010 15:27 GMT
#65
On December 08 2010 22:30 qwaykee wrote:
i love how they call scriptkiddies hackers


Yeah, because "scriptkiddies" would be a better word to use in a report for the general public.

Why are people so anal about terminology when it comes to hacking?
Did everyone suddenly become a "hacker"? So many pretentious people on these forums...

This was a bad move though. What the hell do they think they're accomplishing?
I support Wikileaks and what Julian is doing, I don't support a bunch of rampant teenagers randomly DDOSing websites without even giving it a second thought. DDOSing won't fix anything... if anything it'll make tensions even worse. If you want to help Wikileaks, try not fighting fire with fire. When you go out of the way to try and destroy things, you're making a mockery of what Wikileaks is trying to do.
I want to fuck Soulkey with a Zelderan.
Banksy
Profile Joined December 2010
United States39 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-08 16:08:13
December 08 2010 15:29 GMT
#66
Mod edit: no posting links to DDOS stuff please, this isn't 4chan
SCC-Faust
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States3736 Posts
December 08 2010 15:36 GMT
#67
On December 09 2010 00:29 Banksy wrote:
You can join too


No man.

Can you try to pay attention?

http://www.businessinsider.com/cyber-hackers-that-took-down-swiss-bank-site-have-now-taken-down-mastercardcom-2010-12

"Mastercard says working to suspend acceptance of mastercards on WikiLeaks until situation resolved."
I want to fuck Soulkey with a Zelderan.
BlackJack
Profile Blog Joined June 2003
United States10441 Posts
December 08 2010 15:42 GMT
#68
On December 08 2010 23:44 HellRoxYa wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 08 2010 23:07 BlackJack wrote:
On December 08 2010 22:54 Pika Chu wrote:
Stepping over a line why?

Yeah it's bad that random internet users will have to "suffer" (wtf suffer, it's not that bad if you can't buy something off amazon) but knowing that Amazon fell into political pressures into breaking over the freedom of speech, they deserve this. They deserve not being able to make money (any downtime for amazon is a big lose of money for them).


just fyi, you're posting this on a website that routinely bans people for their speech. You think it's okay for those banned users to hack TL for payback because TL censored their free speech?


This is not the same thing. Private organisations, groups and in this case websites, have the right to refuse membership over any grounds they so please (unless the law explicitly forbids it). TL is a private website and thus has the right to refuse any member on any grounds. The difference is that MasterCard (among others apparently) seem to have given in to pressure which Anon conciders wrong, and that is why they need to be punished. They will fight in any way they can. Sure we can discuss whether their approach is a good one or not, but your analogy isn't accurate in the slightest.


Sorry but that part I bolded is just so ridiculous to me. Just for clarification, I fully support TL's right to ban obnoxious users to the same extent that I support my right to throw unruly guests out of my own home. You are right that private organisations have different rules from public companies. The point I was making is that if those rules are broken is it up for the courts to decide, and not people who "consider it wrong and that is why they need to be punished."
OTIX
Profile Joined July 2010
Sweden491 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-08 15:45:08
December 08 2010 15:43 GMT
#69
If what Paypal, MC and VISA have done is in fact legal then that is even more reason to be outraged. These corporations basically have the power to destroy any retailer or donation-supported organisation in the world. There has to be laws in play to prevent them from wielding that power, much like any corporation that controls vital infrastructure. I suppose americans are used to major corporations having significant political influence but I think most people would agree that that is not an acceptable situation.

Shutting down the MC site obviously has no impact whatsoever but it does help to bring even more attention to what's happening.
emythrel
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United Kingdom2599 Posts
December 08 2010 15:53 GMT
#70
On December 08 2010 23:19 JWD wrote:
Maybe 4chan should have taken some hostages from MasterCard management instead? Or at the very least, destroyed some of MasterCard's physical property, like by blowing up an empty office building or something (might well cause MC less losses than having its website down for hours)? Then all of you supporters of this attack would really get excited?

I am opposed to illegal, destructive retaliation against a private business for its lawful business decisions. And a bit disgusted that so many TLers aren't.


well said.

Any company has the right to deny service to any customer, for any reason they wish.... that is the law.

When I go in to a shop, they can kick me out or refuse to serve me if they wish, and if i then cause havok in the store.... I am breaking the law.

When there is nothing left to lose but your dignity, it is already gone.
BlackJack
Profile Blog Joined June 2003
United States10441 Posts
December 08 2010 15:54 GMT
#71
On December 08 2010 23:29 funkie wrote:

Let's get something clear here. When someone gets banned, it's not because of their "free speech" if because of their language, their misbehavior and they "abuse" of free speech. Get it, pumpkin?


Sorry but all of that is free speech. Throwing the words "abuse of" in front of free speech doesn't make it any less of free speech. Somebody can randomly post 10,000 links of goatse in every single thread and that is still free speech. You have a right to free speech and TL has a right to ban you for speech it does not like, and rightfully so. I'm not complaining of TL's moderation I am just stating a simple fact. This is not even exclusive to TL, there are countless examples of people being punished for free speech: The Dixie Chicks, Don Imus, Keith Olbermann etc. Who gets to decide that its okay to hack mastercard for dropping Assange or if its okay to hack MSNBC for suspending Olbermann, or the Dixie Chicks record label for dropping them, or TL for banning the guy that posted 10,000 goatse links? Does Anon get to decide this or should the courts get to decide this? It sickens me that some people think the former should decide.

btw its even in the TL ten commandments "We are not obligated to observe anyone's notions of "free speech" or even "fairness.""
Kralic
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Canada2628 Posts
December 08 2010 15:58 GMT
#72
On December 09 2010 00:43 OTIX wrote:
If what Paypal, MC and VISA have done is in fact legal then that is even more reason to be outraged. These corporations basically have the power to destroy any retailer or donation-supported organisation in the world. There has to be laws in play to prevent them from wielding that power, much like any corporation that controls vital infrastructure. I suppose americans are used to major corporations having significant political influence but I think most people would agree that that is not an acceptable situation.

Shutting down the MC site obviously has no impact whatsoever but it does help to bring even more attention to what's happening.



So you want companies to have no power over the services they offer to others? I just don't follow, MC Visa and Paypal aren't the only companies that offer these services.
Brood War forever!
Aim Here
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Scotland672 Posts
December 08 2010 16:06 GMT
#73
On December 09 2010 00:18 JWD wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 09 2010 00:13 Aim Here wrote:

Aim Here, I'd love if you responded to my post quoting yours, on page 2. Imagine some property (say, a small office building, or a company car) that is worth less to MasterCard than a few hours of uptime on mastercard.com. Would you also be in favor of 4chan blowing up that building, or torching that car?

(Note that the car/building hypo is favorable to you, because destruction of the car or office building wouldn't be as much harm to MC's customers as taking down mastercard.com)


First off, I'm fairly ambivalent about these DOS tactics that Mastercard is using, mostly because I can't predict the likely effects of them (and as far as morality is concerned, I believe that the judgement of morality of an action hinges purely on the predictable consequences of that action). It partly hinges on the likelihood of what the state can get away with, and do, if these attacks became really successful, and I'm not sure about that - currently what's going on is a bog-standard DDOS, of little or no consequence in the medium to long term. There's also the issue of Anonymous being a small, unaccountable, group of people wielding some power out of proportion to their numbers, but that's a problem for a later date - currently the DOSes are just propaganda (and far more effective at that than the jester, the anti-Wikileaks counterpart).

As for the damage to physical property you're suggesting, the case there is more clearcut, since it's happened before - there was a spate of left-wing 'urban guerrilla' type actions in the late '60s and early '70s that were similar to the ones you suggest. Some of the groups (like the Red Brigade in Italy, or Red Army Fraction in Germany) did commit terrorist bombings and assassinations, so they're not applicable here.

The Angry Brigade in the UK, or the Weather Underground in the US, did mostly restrict themselves to property damage and issuing communiques (although the Weather Underground were going to do a rather nasty terrorist bombing initially, until the bombmaker blew himself up - the remaining members of the WU were a less violent bunch). All that came out of those guys was that lots of people were scared of secretive elite groups planting bombs (even if they weren't aimed at people), the fear among the public led to a lot of state repression, and no social change, and I think that if a group like that sprang up today it would get more fear and even less support. So yes, I'm against bombing an empty building the way you describe. Bombs are scary. Scaring people is usually bad.

Now smashing up the property of people who are up to no good CAN be done in a way that doesn't create massive amounts of fear among the general population. The mass anticapitalist demos of the late 1990s and early 2000s did involve some rioting and property damage, but in a way that didn't cause mass fear among the general population. There was a lot of state repression (most notably at the G8 summit in Genoa in 2001), but since it was the protesters who came off worse, physically, and it made for good propaganda if the robocops of the Italian State were shown to be evil fascist thugs, it did have the effect of tempering the state. I was protesting the G8 summit in 2005, and the strategy of the state there was mostly to work with (or appear to work with - a lot of the announcements at the end of the summit were fraudulent, but it was a start) the NGOs in order to hijack the anticapitalist demonstration - because they realised they wouldn't have easily gotten away with just storming peaceful protesters in their beds and torturing them, as happened at Genoa. Some people did get clobbered, and the police tactics probably weren't entirely legal, but in general, the filth were on their best behaviour.

In short, I wouldn't object to destroying the property of Mastercard in certain circumstances (or even on general principles, I'm a 'property is theft' kinda guy!), but the way you propose it should be done would be out of the question.
acker
Profile Joined September 2010
United States2958 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-08 16:14:54
December 08 2010 16:07 GMT
#74
Low Orbit Ion Cannons!

This entire cyberwar kinda reminds me of the American Civil Rights Movement or even standard union sit-ins for some reason; nonviolent, illegal actions designed to curry attention for a cause.

Which is definitely a better analogy than bombings or hostage taking; one is to deny use of a service, and the other is to commit violent destruction of life and property.

Amusingly enough, MasterCard accepts donations to the KKK and other white supremacist parties.
tnud
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Sweden2233 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-08 16:39:34
December 08 2010 16:16 GMT
#75
I have to say I'm kinda impressed, they managed to get almost 1700 people willingly into a botnet oO

EDIT: It's over 1700 now..
EDIT: 1800...
- ಠ_ಠ - | disinfect wrote: AHAHHAHAHA 2DG FUCK ME ALREADY.
KaiserJohan
Profile Joined May 2010
Sweden1808 Posts
December 08 2010 16:27 GMT
#76
On December 09 2010 00:58 Kralic wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 09 2010 00:43 OTIX wrote:
If what Paypal, MC and VISA have done is in fact legal then that is even more reason to be outraged. These corporations basically have the power to destroy any retailer or donation-supported organisation in the world. There has to be laws in play to prevent them from wielding that power, much like any corporation that controls vital infrastructure. I suppose americans are used to major corporations having significant political influence but I think most people would agree that that is not an acceptable situation.

Shutting down the MC site obviously has no impact whatsoever but it does help to bring even more attention to what's happening.



So you want companies to have no power over the services they offer to others? I just don't follow, MC Visa and Paypal aren't the only companies that offer these services.


He never said that. He got a very good point.

You are overreacting by saying they should have "NO" power; he said they shouldn't have the power to completely screw up an organization relying on donations.
Of course they should be able to control what they do, but to a certain extent. Just because you got a private company dosn't mean you can do jackshit with it, there are many laws you have to follow, atleast in the countries with an existing socal security...

England will fight to the last American
JWD
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States12607 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-08 16:47:29
December 08 2010 16:45 GMT
#77
On December 09 2010 00:18 Bartuc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 09 2010 00:01 JWD wrote:
On December 08 2010 23:43 Bartuc wrote:
On December 08 2010 23:38 JWD wrote:
On December 08 2010 23:29 funkie wrote:
On December 08 2010 23:19 JWD wrote:
Maybe 4chan should have taken some hostages from MasterCard management instead? Or at the very least, destroyed some of MasterCard's physical property, like by blowing up an empty office building or something (might well cause MC less losses than having its website down for hours)? Then all of you supporters of this attack would really get excited?

I am opposed to violent retaliation against a private business for its lawful business decisions. And a bit disgusted that so many TLers aren't.


Violent retaliation? are you serious?, what's "so violent" in all of this? and then you say "against Private Business for it's Lawful business decisions". "LAWFUL"? are you serious, AGAIN?.

What's lawful in this?, the pressure the government is putting on these "private" business to cut services from Wikileaks (who represents a customer like any other). So, to you, like say, Paypal, Amazon, MasterCard and Visa, can cut your credit, take away your money and so on, not process payments to you among others, just because some "bigger man" is putting pressure on them?

I used the word violent because a DDoS attack is violent: it's 4chan trying to hurt MC by destroying something of MC's. That's violence. But I mean, violence is often justified. So I don't see your objection to that word, really.

Of course MasterCard's decision to pull support for WikiLeaks was lawful. It is only illegal for a private business to deny service to a customer for a few very specific reasons, for example sex or race discrimination. I highly doubt that MC pulled support for WikiLeaks for one of those reasons. It's much more plausible that MC made its decision weighing the costs (in government pressure, perhaps, or lost business from people who don't like WikiLeaks) of maintaining WikiLeaks as a customer against the benefits (not many? WikiLeaks is not a major business). Or maybe MC just decided that it didn't want to serve WikiLeaks because MC is an American business and it supports the US government. Either way, WikiLeaks has no legal recourse against MC, and MC's action was lawful — in general MasterCard's service is not a public right, but a privilege bestowed by MC.

Nothing is actually destroyed, only access is blocked due to many people blocking the entrance to their facilities at the same time. I'd compare it more to a few thousand people standing around the entrance of a bank blocking everybody who comes in and out. I'd define it as civil disobedience rather than violence.

There's a fine line to be sure. But I disagree that "nothing is actually destroyed," in the sense that mastercard.com is MC's property, and MasterCard is suffering every second that it is down. Ensuing damage to MC's business is permanent (if difficult to measure).

The analogy to blocking a bank entrance is nice, and has got me thinking pretty hard. This particular "entrance" (mastercard.com) has tens of thousands of visitors a day (plus it's much more important to MasterCard than any one physical location), so in scale the analogy is definitely way off. And I mean, presumably some sort of aggression would be necessary to stop bank customers from simply walking through the crowd to go in the bank.

As for calling a DDoS attack mere "civil disobedience," my immediate reaction is that such an attack is much too aggressive to fall within the connotative meaning of that term.

But all this is getting away from the thrust of my point, which is that it's not right for 4chan to harm (whether through "violent retaliation" or mere "civil disobedience") MC for MC's lawful business decision.


Hm, I'm not sure that the scale has any potential effect on whether or not it is violent. Consider a major event disturbed by a group of people of certain environmental/political beliefs by blocking access to that event. What matters most in terms of scale is that the induced impact is higher, but if this impact is supported by the general populus and no violence/direct damage occurs, then objectively I wouldn't nessecarily say that such a high scale impact event is bad. Still, even when general populus is against said impact/political motivation I might still support it because I agree with them. There's plenty of political causes that are vigorously protested/demonstrated for by a poilitical minority. I think this is very subjective and depends on you as a person as to whether you think it is bad or not.

In terms of the violence that would be nessecary to stop entrance to the bank, I disagree. The way I concider it is if you stand between potential user and mastercard in a real world situation without applying violence to stop the user, you would cause indirect and potential damages (for lack of better terms/explanation). If you use violence (e.g. pushing the other person away) the other person receives direct damage to himself and his property. I think the latter is not the case when paraphrasing it to the online situation.

All good points. You're absolutely right that scale doesn't go to violence. As I pointed the difference in scale out, I was thinking "but this doesn't differentiate the bank picketing analogy, on principle." Actually after continuing to think about your bank picketing analogy, I can't find any good way to differentiate it. So I now think that "violent" was probably the wrong word. I edited my first post accordingly. Thanks for that illuminating thought.

Aim Here, thanks for your post. I really have to study now but I hope to respond to it later.
✌
RiotSpectre
Profile Joined October 2010
United States163 Posts
December 08 2010 16:53 GMT
#78
Anon is such a wildcard, and I think they absolutely prefer it that way. I support Wikileaks and freedom of information, but a DDOS attack against MC is pretty childish. I doubt it will accomplish anything.

Of course, members of Anon may now be wanted in Sweden for some hastily concocted sexual offense allegations...
Natt
Profile Joined August 2010
France253 Posts
December 08 2010 17:01 GMT
#79
lol, anon hwaiting
Neivler
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Norway911 Posts
December 08 2010 17:13 GMT
#80
On December 09 2010 00:43 OTIX wrote:
If what Paypal, MC and VISA have done is in fact legal then that is even more reason to be outraged. These corporations basically have the power to destroy any retailer or donation-supported organisation in the world. There has to be laws in play to prevent them from wielding that power, much like any corporation that controls vital infrastructure. I suppose americans are used to major corporations having significant political influence but I think most people would agree that that is not an acceptable situation.

Shutting down the MC site obviously has no impact whatsoever but it does help to bring even more attention to what's happening.


When you get an account with any of the companies you both agree on a contract. I am not sure but I would guess they are not allowed to deny your account, when you have no broken any of their regulations.
I pwn noobs
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