EPTViews on construction of Mosque at Ground Zero - Page 6
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funk100
United Kingdom172 Posts
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Meta
United States6225 Posts
On August 24 2010 03:11 LlamaNamedOsama wrote: Aaaannnnd here's the mandatory anti-religion post  For the 1 about video games, he was using an example of people scape-goating something as a "cause" when really the issue is far more complex. Your same analysis about "Islam brainwashing" falls under this kind of thinking, by claiming "direct correlation." Just because it CAN be interpreted a certain negative way doesn't mean it is causally responsible: in fact by acknowledging the importance of interpretation you're conceding that the crucial distinction is the interpretation which is based on the person's own perspective and individuality. People have also interpreted the ideals of America to justify ethnic cleansing of Native Americans and slavery too. Does that mean America "is equally bad, and has no place in modern society." Plus, there are millions of lurking variables. Poor economic background, lack of access to education, and more all influence both the individual's interpretation, as well as their susceptability to others' interpretations. Also, you're assuming that "most human beings are inherently good." Because of that assumption you're prone to thinking that it therefore is some external corrupting factor that causes bad things to happen, but this crux of that thinking isn't really justified. I'm not necessarily argue the antithesis, but just noting that this is a far deeper philosophical question that can't be reduced to such simple claims. I agree with everything you said, except maybe the interpretation of what happened to Native Americans. The cause of religiously motivated violence, whatever it may be, would simply not exist without religion. It probably is extremely complex, the leaders and decision makers within terrorist organizations may, for all we know, have been subjected to harsh physical or emotional abuse as children. They may just be sociopaths. But the main thing I want to get across with my previous post is that pure faith in any single text that has passages demeaning towards outside people will, by necessity, lead to violence towards those outsiders propagated by only the most brainwashed individuals. It's a really tough problem to pin down because of it's complexity, like you said there are a million lurking variables. I just don't see the problem with eliminating one of them (religion) and seeing where we end up as a species. edit: This is my last post about it (maybe only partially in fear of moderator action). Like I said I agree with almost everything you said, clearly you're of higher intelligence. Also I like this topic because it raises an issue rarely talked about on TL these days. I wish I could watch that Kieth Olbermann video from work just based on the responses on the last page | ||
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dybydx
Canada1764 Posts
well... i can't believe that i m witnessing this in my life time. the US invaded iraq and abused prisoners in the name of peace and freedom. and now, their ignorance has led them to justify the ban on mosque to be consistent with freedom of religion. | ||
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DefMatrixUltra
Canada1992 Posts
On August 23 2010 23:22 Ixas wrote: It serves as a painful reminder of the past for those who are affected, its not about discrimination but more of respect for the victims. This is a good argument, but should we also disallow the construction of Christian churches in areas that have had abortion clinics bombed? One way or the other, intentional or otherwise, this is just discrimination and blaming an entire people/religion for the actions of very few. | ||
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barballs
United States21 Posts
She claims this so called cultural center will "contain recreation facilities for youth, a restaurant and culinary school, education programs, a library and child care services in addition to a prayer room (mosque)". I wonder what will be taught in education center (IED-making 101?). Statements like this from the US press makes me sad to be living here. Such hatred and intolerance from coming from the nation who fights for freedom? Where is the freedom of choice for the patriotic American Muslims? There wouldn't be so much as a peep if it were a synagogue or a church. Such hypocrisy makes me sick to my core. I am a Christian. let them build their Mosque. There's already 200 in the area including 2 within 2 miles of the site. What's one more? There clearly is a large Muslim community there. | ||
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DwmC_Foefen
Belgium2186 Posts
He should move too then according to their logic :p | ||
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Ecael
United States6703 Posts
How do people to intend to remove the connection that Islamic Fundamentalism, and consequently, Islam, have to the 9/11 attacks? Regardless of how the blame should be mete out, to some people who has suffered from 9/11, a mosque only serves as a painful reminder. They are silenced by others invoking the freedom of religion, the idea of tolerance, the ideals that the nation is built on. In the name of a greater good and what is 'proper', these people's opinions are casted aside and even twisted against them. Perhaps, in the future, we could actually try to consider these victims' feelings before calling their opinion discriminatory, racist, and downright evil. They should be allowed to express their opinion, and over time, perhaps work out a suitable compromise. They should not be stomped beneath the power of the majority and the name of the greater good, regardless of whether they were in fact guilty of the faults lumped onto them. | ||
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angelicfolly
United States292 Posts
On August 24 2010 03:48 barballs wrote: Statements like this from the US press makes me sad to be living here. Such hatred and intolerance from coming from the nation who fights for freedom? Where is the freedom of choice for the patriotic American Muslims? There wouldn't be so much as a peep if it were a synagogue or a church. Such hypocrisy makes me sick to my core. I am a Christian. let them build their Mosque. There's already 200 in the area including 2 within 2 miles of the site. What's one more? There clearly is a large Muslim community there. This really ins't about religion, same issue when a shinto shrine was built (not recently) SEVERAL miles away from Pearl Harbor. Point is, association with "attacks" on the US is not want people want. Shinto Shrine=Pearl Harbor Muslim=9/11 Connection? Yes because it is a Identity issue, that probably doesn't actually mean it's apart of said source. If a so-called Christian "group" did something like those two, you bet they would not want to a church to be built so close to it. | ||
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Vokasak
United States388 Posts
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ghermination
United States2851 Posts
On August 24 2010 04:02 angelicfolly wrote: This really ins't about religion, same issue when a shinto shrine was built (not recently) SEVERAL miles away from Pearl Harbor. Point is, association with "attacks" on the US is not want people want. Shinto Shrine=9/11 Muslim=9/11 Connection? Yes because it is a Identity issue, that probably doesn't actually mean it's apart of said source. If a so-called Christian "group" did something like those two, you bet they would not want to a church to be built so close to it. And no, this is completely wrong. If some psychotic fundamentalist group had bombed the WTC, i'm very sure we would have constructed a church near it. I bet you there's even at least one Chapel inside the "Freedom Tower" Christianity is the default religion of America and the West. It's what you're expected to follow and it has generally caused much more pain for our country than any other. When a Muslim commits a crime, the judgmental few out there (hola Fox news extremists) will connect it with his religion. These same few people would refuse to do so with a Christian. | ||
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catamorphist
United States297 Posts
On August 24 2010 04:02 Ecael wrote: Perhaps, in the future, we could actually try to consider these victims' feelings before calling their opinion discriminatory, racist, and downright evil. They should be allowed to express their opinion, and over time, perhaps work out a suitable compromise. They should not be stomped beneath the power of the majority and the name of the greater good, regardless of whether they were in fact guilty of the faults lumped onto them. They are allowed to express their opinion; they've been expressing their opinion all over the media for weeks. Having an opinion doesn't entitle you to respect, especially if your opinion is that everyone of a particular religion should be treated as a second-class citizen. (And that's a damn gracious interpretation of a lot of people's opinions, after watching the rallies against this mosque.) | ||
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Dr.Kill-Joy
United States627 Posts
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JinNJuice
United States255 Posts
On August 24 2010 04:02 angelicfolly wrote: This really ins't about religion, same issue when a shinto shrine was built (not recently) SEVERAL miles away from Pearl Harbor. Point is, association with "attacks" on the US is not want people want. Shinto Shrine=9/11 Muslim=9/11 Connection? Yes because it is a Identity issue, that probably doesn't actually mean it's apart of said source. If a so-called Christian "group" did something like those two, you bet they would not want to a church to be built so close to it. I think this right here highlights the exact cause of this whole debate. It's the fact that people cannot open their eyes and see that associations and stereotyping is the reason for every hate crime that has ever occurred. This is what has to STOP. If we can't get past our prejudices that every Muslim is somehow connected to terrorism, then we're no better than the terrorists themselves. | ||
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Ecael
United States6703 Posts
On August 24 2010 04:16 catamorphist wrote: They are allowed to express their opinion; they've been expressing their opinion all over the media for weeks. Having an opinion doesn't entitle you to respect, especially if your opinion is that everyone of a particular religion should be treated as a second-class citizen. (And that's a damn gracious interpretation of a lot of people's opinions, after watching the rallies against this mosque.) What I am seeing is that at the point when people express an opinion against the construction of the Mosque, they are labeled as such. Even if they are racist, the deserve a certain level of respect. Point out that fact and people will understand. Is the violence of words in using all these ideals and principles not a form of discrimination and refusal to communicate in itself? | ||
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Biochemist
United States1008 Posts
On August 24 2010 02:59 Meta wrote: As an atheist I'm astounded that you can't understand that all religious people, especially devout ones, actually believe what they say they believe. Unfortunately every holy text has passages that can be and HAVE BEEN interpreted to promote violence towards outside groups. Even the bible has been used to justify slavery and the crusades, just as the Qur-an has been used to justify the horrific deeds of terrorists. Even though most people are inherently good, and will never commit atrocities such as these, there's no reason why some people, who aren't inherently good for whatever reason, will use the passages from these books, which they believe to be the word of God, to justify horrible cruelty. The issue isn't that Islam is a "bad religion" or any of that nonsense. It's that all religions are equally bad, and have no place in modern society. And it's not that all Muslims are being judged as bad, I'm absolutely positive that a large majority of them are good, ethical human beings, because most human beings are good and ethical. That said, I still support the construction of this Mosque, because in America they have the freedom to do whatever they want with the land that they purchased. Arguing against their right to construct it leads nowhere. You might be shocked to learn that there are many religious groups (yes, even those Christians) who promote the development of personal character as one of their primary goals. Not everyone is the gun-toting muslim-hating rabble that you seem to stereotype them all as, and I think religions like that do a lot to enhance the state of the modern world. Just because people sometimes (mistakenly) use holy scriptures to justify violence and discrimination doesn't mean that religion is bad. Try to be a little more open minded. | ||
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angelicfolly
United States292 Posts
On August 24 2010 04:14 ghermination wrote: And no, this is completely wrong. If some psychotic fundamentalist group had bombed the WTC, i'm very sure we would have constructed a church near it. I bet you there's even at least one Chapel inside the "Freedom Tower" Christianity is the default religion of America and the West. It's what you're expected to follow and it has generally caused much more pain for our country than any other. When a Muslim commits a crime, the judgmental few out there (hola Fox news extremists) will connect it with his religion. These same few people would refuse to do so with a Christian. It's wrong because you ASSUME that a Christian church would be built? Hmm, did I NOT say this is a identity issue, regardless of wither it's true or not? I'm not even going to deal with the rest of that.... On August 24 2010 04:18 JinNJuice wrote: I think this right here highlights the exact cause of this whole debate. It's the fact that people cannot open their eyes and see that associations and stereotyping is the reason for every hate crime that has ever occurred. This is what has to STOP. If we can't get past our prejudices that every Muslim is somehow connected to terrorism, then we're no better than the terrorists themselves. Partly, I would say it also the association the Terrorists have identified themselves with.Sadly when joe average (i'm really not going to debate intelligence or whatever on this, it is an EXAMPLE) will need time to put the two separate. Meaning things built before and sometime (I wouldn't know how long, but this isn't about exact dates) after will be fine. Give it time. One for people to really separate the issue (Japan was not forgiven and vice versa just after ww2). Being selfish in this situation is only making things worse (being tactless). Know when to invoke your rights, makes a smother journey for all. | ||
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QuanticHawk
United States32102 Posts
I never thought i'd read a good political story on cracked. Nice and simple read—even the all-the-arabs-are-terrorists crowd might be able to handle it. But yeah, a majority of the posts in this thread echo the 'Us vs Them' sentiments being pandered by the wonderful conservative right. You people are the reasons laws like RLUIPA exists—without it, the makeup of any community would be determined by it's hateful, bigoted majority. | ||
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Ranix
United States666 Posts
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catamorphist
United States297 Posts
On August 24 2010 04:29 Ecael wrote: What I am seeing is that at the point when people express an opinion against the construction of the Mosque, they are labeled as such. Even if they are racist, the deserve a certain level of respect. Point out that fact and people will understand. Is the violence of words in using all these ideals and principles not a form of discrimination and refusal to communicate in itself? Perhaps they ought to take a page from the Bible and "Do unto others..." If they want respect, they should start respecting their neighbors. Protesting someone else's place of worship for no reason other than "it makes me angry because 9/11" is the epitome of disrespect. | ||
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angelicfolly
United States292 Posts
On August 24 2010 04:55 catamorphist wrote: Perhaps they ought to take a page from the Bible and "Do unto others..." If they want respect, they should start respecting their neighbors. Protesting someone else's place of worship for no reason other than "it makes me angry because 9/11" is the epitome of disrespect. Do unto othes.... Would also mean if a so-called Christian did something similar they would have to follow the same "thing" that is happening here. This can really be turned around against you. | ||
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