EPTBut even if they're legit, all it does is move us from "Israeli thugs kill deliverers of humanitarian aid on international waters" to "Israeli thugs get well-deserved beatdown before killing deliverers of humanitarian aid on international waters".
News: Israel Attacks Gazan Aid Flotilla - Page 62
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Severedevil
United States4839 Posts
But even if they're legit, all it does is move us from "Israeli thugs kill deliverers of humanitarian aid on international waters" to "Israeli thugs get well-deserved beatdown before killing deliverers of humanitarian aid on international waters". | ||
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Squeegy
Finland1166 Posts
On June 09 2010 04:30 TOloseGT wrote: So all that was left was guns? Gimme a break. Got any suggestions? And while you think of them, consider the fact that the ships carry a limited amount of gear. | ||
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TOloseGT
United States1145 Posts
On June 09 2010 04:41 Squeegy wrote: Got any suggestions? And while you think of them, consider the fact that the ships carry a limited amount of gear. As serious as Israel is about the Gaza blockade, you would think they would equip their ships better. If a few protesters got the better of their commandos, I'm worried how ill equipped Israel is in giving the people locked in Gaza food and water. | ||
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angelicfolly
United States292 Posts
On June 09 2010 04:35 Severedevil wrote: Those pictures are remarkably clean and well-positioned, considering they were supposedly taken at night in the middle of a brawl. But even if they're legit, all it does is move us from "Israeli thugs kill deliverers of humanitarian aid on international waters" to "Israeli thugs get well-deserved beatdown before killing deliverers of humanitarian aid on international waters". That is disgusting way to put something, contrary of actual truth of the matter. Well I guess you put so much before somebody and they still will deny it to kingdom come. Seriously though, you can not make such an accusation about the flotilla because one they where not peaceful, two they had KNOWN terrorist links on board. On the pictures, I don't care who took them, they only show a snippet of what happen, more to the point to show that the flotilla was NOT PEACEFUL. With that said, it also shows that the flotilla supporters can/will edit the evidence themselves to support their side. To which klaz kept trying to hammer Israel about. TOloseGT, Ok, well just let the soldiers become beaten/killed/hostage, that works for everyone. I mean soldiers are not trained to kill, or fire they gun are they (this is such a key point here)? Did it ever occur to you that Israel may have actually sent those commandos to be peaceful, only to have it backfire? I mean if they wanted to kill the flotilla people they certainly wouldn't have been overwhelmed like they where, just throwing it out there. Give it some thought. | ||
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TOloseGT
United States1145 Posts
Then they killed 9 people. Nothing to see here but over zealous soldiers itching for some killing. | ||
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TSM
Great Britain584 Posts
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Squeegy
Finland1166 Posts
On June 09 2010 04:56 TOloseGT wrote: The only way those commandos could have been subdued was if they were outnumbered. They brought it on themselves when they illegally boarded the ship. Then they killed 9 people. Nothing to see here but over zealous soldiers itching for some killing. Now that is some fine argumenting indeed! I can't wait for Subversive to say the same thing so we can finally agree on something! | ||
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TOloseGT
United States1145 Posts
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Klaz
Ireland334 Posts
On June 09 2010 04:49 angelicfolly wrote: That is disgusting way to put something, contrary of actual truth of the matter. Well I guess you put so much before somebody and they still will deny it to kingdom come. Seriously though, you can not make such an accusation about the flotilla because one they where not peaceful, two they had KNOWN terrorist links on board. On the pictures, I don't care who took them, they only show a snippet of what happen, more to the point to show that the flotilla was NOT PEACEFUL. With that said, it also shows that the flotilla supporters can/will edit the evidence themselves to support their side. To which klaz kept trying to hammer Israel about. TOloseGT, Ok, well just let the soldiers become beaten/killed/hostage, that works for everyone. I mean soldiers are not trained to kill, or fire they gun are they (this is such a key point here)? Did it ever occur to you that Israel may have actually sent those commandos to be peaceful, only to have it backfire? I mean if they wanted to kill the flotilla people they certainly wouldn't have been overwhelmed like they where, just throwing it out there. Give it some thought. Unless I'm mistaken, the unedited versions of those pictures were published originally in a TURKISH newspaper. That's right, the place from where most of the confirmed dead are supposedly from. I don't think these photos we're released by the IDF. Actually, I read somewhere that one of the passengers on the ships, a woman, took these with her phone and then smuggled the memory chip past the IDF in her underwear. So I don't understand where you're getting this idea that the people on the aid ship are releasing edited photos. These photographs graphic as they are don't actually prove or disprove either sides' narrative in this. We already know that the commandos were subdued when they boarded they ship. The aid workers claim this was in self-defence in response to being attacked at 3am in the middle of the night. These photos neither conform no challenge that narrative. We also know that 45 people were shot by the IDF and at least 9 were killed. Photos of those people lying dead would no more prove that the Israelis attacked BEFORE the flotilla reacted than these prove that the people on board attacked the commandos first. Unless we saw footage of people dead before there were any commandos on board. So I don't see how you're drawing this conclusion that those on board did not have peaceful intentions. We know they fought back against the attack. Funnily enough though, these photos also included shots of aid workers ministering to injured Israeli soldiers. Though I doubt you will find those highlighted on the blogs and websites you frequent. While the IDF left three injured aid workers untreated for three hours causing them to bleed to death. Also the claims that there were in fact "terrorists" on board have been thoroughly debunked though you wouldn't know that if you watched fox news. Meanwhile the Israeli Govt. have rebuffed the pretty much universal (except for the US) call for an independent inquiry and continue to withhold all the evidence. They will conduct only an internal enquiry and not even QUESTION the soldiers involved. Which to me, speaks volumes. Here's the thing I still don't understand... so you have these "terrorists" on the ship, they've captured Israeli soldiers, they've got guns and all sorts of "sophisticated" weapons. And even after the Israelis opened up with live fire. None of the "terrorists" killed of these soldiers, who seemed to be below deck and sequestered AWAY from their comrades. It seems to me that you are drawing conclusions of convenience rather than fact. | ||
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condoriano
United States826 Posts
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Klaz
Ireland334 Posts
On June 09 2010 05:28 condoriano wrote: Some idiot thinks he can post 2 pictures of injured soldiers in the middle of a crowd and refute everything that was said? Even considering no one actually argued some of the commandos got roughed up once they tried to board the ship? Sick. It would be funny if it didn't happen so often. Seems to be the modus operandi of those that seek to justify the unjustifiable. Deny, obfuscate, deny, apologise, obfuscate. | ||
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angelicfolly
United States292 Posts
On June 09 2010 05:09 Klaz wrote: Unless I'm mistaken, the unedited versions of those pictures were published originally in a TURKISH newspaper. That's right, the place from where most of the confirmed dead are supposedly from. I don't think these photos we're released by the IDF. Actually, I read somewhere that one of the passengers on the ships, a woman, took these with her phone and then smuggled the memory chip past the IDF in her underwear. So I don't understand where you're getting this idea that the people on the aid ship are releasing edited photos. These photographs graphic as they are don't actually prove or disprove either sides' narrative in this. We already know that the commandos were subdued when they boarded they ship. The aid workers claim this was in self-defence in response to being attacked at 3am in the middle of the night. These photos neither conform no challenge that narrative. We also know that 45 people were shot by the IDF and at least 9 were killed. Photos of those people lying dead would no more prove that the Israelis attacked BEFORE the flotilla reacted than these prove that the people on board attacked the commandos first. Unless we saw footage of people dead before there were any commandos on board. So I don't see how you're drawing this conclusion that those on board did not have peaceful intentions. We know they fought back against the attack. Funnily enough though, these photos also included shots of aid workers ministering to injured Israeli soldiers. Though I doubt you will find those highlighted on the blogs and websites you frequent. While the IDF left three injured aid workers untreated for three hours causing them to bleed to death. Also the claims that there were in fact "terrorists" on board have been thoroughly debunked though you wouldn't know that if you watched fox news. Meanwhile the Israeli Govt. have rebuffed the pretty much universal (except for the US) call for an independent inquiry and continue to withhold all the evidence. They will conduct only an internal enquiry and not even QUESTION the soldiers involved. Which to me, speaks volumes. Here's the thing I still don't understand... so you have these "terrorists" on the ship, they've captured Israeli soldiers, they've got guns and all sorts of "sophisticated" weapons. And even after the Israelis opened up with live fire. None of the "terrorists" killed of these soldiers, who seemed to be below deck and sequestered AWAY from their comrades. It seems to me that you are drawing conclusions of convenience rather than fact. WARING, I do watch fox news, so to you, you might want to avoid me (this is in light of the post you edited). Oh by the way fox news IS considered the most balanced news networks in America.... Was that first part pointed at me? Because if you actually read the articles I posted, that was completely NOT what I was talking about. I wasn't trying to prove who attacked first, but the fact that the flotilla WAS NOT peaceful. You have pictures that show Israel soldiers being pulled down, bleeding, and with knives in the picture. That does NOT paint a peaceful picture, If they where peaceful they would NOT have responded to violence, civil rights in America anyone? Oh lets point to the exception of a very few minority on the ship to call it peaceful. That the same argument that tries to paint an army as a bunch of murders if one solider goes rouge. If those terrorists claims where debunked provide the documents so, if you can't don't bring it up again. Oh buy the way I didn't learn that at Fox News... I really, really don't care what volumes it speaks to you, because frankly that remains on personal opinion. (to which I avoid half this thread). Frankly it doesn't for me, what an contradiction that makes. Ummm, if your whole goal is a pr campaign why make yourself look bad by killing the soldiers. That really was the whole goal of the flotilla, give Israel some pretty bad publicity. Yet again, I don't care what you 'Think" I'm doing, how about we actually deal with whats out there? Instead of trying to discredit each other? condoriano, Way for the Ad Hominem, Go back to where I first posted that information. I did in light of Klaz constantly saying Israel doctored information. Did I actually challenge the commandos getting rough up, No? then comprehend what was written. I SAID because of the pictures (I.E. what was in them) it does NOT paint the flotilla as peaceful. So now it comes down to personal attacks wow, didn't think it was going there (actaully I did..). | ||
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Squeegy
Finland1166 Posts
On June 09 2010 05:33 Klaz wrote: It would be funny if it didn't happen so often. Seems to be the modus operandi of those that seek to justify the unjustifiable. Deny, obfuscate, deny, apologise, obfuscate. Oh, I see, so there is in fact nothing I, IDF or anyone for that matter can say or do. You've made up your mind. Lovely open-mindedness! | ||
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Romantic
United States1844 Posts
Never | ||
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Squeegy
Finland1166 Posts
On June 09 2010 06:04 Romantic wrote: This thread is now about how long it will take the simple majority of humanity to realize meeting violence with violence only escalates violent problems. Never Or rather that sometimes violence is necessary. Or how do you think the Nazis were supposed to be stopped? | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
On June 09 2010 06:05 Squeegy wrote: Or rather that sometimes violence is necessary. Or how do you think the Nazis were supposed to be stopped? One of the issues is that discussing violence in totally abstract terms and making vast generalizations about them is dangerous when you then apply them to a real-life example. In this case, one person saying "sometimes you shouldn't use it" and then another responding "but sometimes you should" are both very innocuous, but it's hard to see it apart from earlier arguments about a very specific issue, namely the Israel-Palestine conflict, so that saying "sometimes you should use violence" suddenly sounds very ominous. To me it seems better to not judge violence per se, but simply say: there are times when it's appropriate, times when it isn't. There are some frameworks to think about it, either international law, long-term peace, etc. | ||
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angelicfolly
United States292 Posts
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
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mmp
United States2130 Posts
On June 09 2010 04:49 angelicfolly wrote: That is disgusting way to put something, contrary of actual truth of the matter. Well I guess you put so much before somebody and they still will deny it to kingdom come. Seriously though, you can not make such an accusation about the flotilla because one they where not peaceful, two they had KNOWN terrorist links on board. On the pictures, I don't care who took them, they only show a snippet of what happen, more to the point to show that the flotilla was NOT PEACEFUL. With that said, it also shows that the flotilla supporters can/will edit the evidence themselves to support their side. To which klaz kept trying to hammer Israel about. TOloseGT, Ok, well just let the soldiers become beaten/killed/hostage, that works for everyone. I mean soldiers are not trained to kill, or fire they gun are they (this is such a key point here)? Did it ever occur to you that Israel may have actually sent those commandos to be peaceful, only to have it backfire? I mean if they wanted to kill the flotilla people they certainly wouldn't have been overwhelmed like they where, just throwing it out there. Give it some thought. You appear to be new around here... | ||
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annul
United States2841 Posts
On June 09 2010 05:34 angelicfolly wrote: Oh by the way fox news IS considered the most balanced news networks in America.... o_O | ||
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