|
On May 13 2010 06:32 Sins wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2010 05:50 xDaunt wrote:On May 13 2010 05:41 Sins wrote:
I would rather have a federal bill that discriminates against ALL individuals than have a bill that discriminates against someone's visible characteristics. I oppose this bill and feel sad for those that are simply supporting it on xenophobic grounds. Here's the problem with the debate. Those who are opposing the new Arizona law are blindly chalking up support for the law to "racism" or "xenophobia," without considering the real, tangible problems that illegal immigration causes. Just to be clear, I don't mean that you, personally, are guilty of this; the balance of your comment suggests that you are not. However, far too many people are. Please elaborate on the problems that "illegal" immigrates cause? We as a whole benefit far greater than they exploit the system. How is it that our first class country is able to prevail w/ our agricultural products being so cheap? Illegal immigrants are far more deserving even at the cost of our healthcare system, in order for them to seek the medical attention they need to continue working in the fields. As for them "not paying taxes" how do they manage to manipulate the system? Illegal immigrants do pay their taxes, what do you think ITIN is for? And if they are NOT paying it then they only LOSE the benefits that this country supplies them with. Don't blindly confuse me to be part of your constituent; I am not your buddy.
You do realize that our tax system is generally a progressive system and that people who generally don't make much (illegal immigrants...) don't pay much if anything into the system as a whole right?
|
On May 13 2010 06:51 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2010 06:32 Sins wrote:On May 13 2010 05:50 xDaunt wrote:On May 13 2010 05:41 Sins wrote:
I would rather have a federal bill that discriminates against ALL individuals than have a bill that discriminates against someone's visible characteristics. I oppose this bill and feel sad for those that are simply supporting it on xenophobic grounds. Here's the problem with the debate. Those who are opposing the new Arizona law are blindly chalking up support for the law to "racism" or "xenophobia," without considering the real, tangible problems that illegal immigration causes. Just to be clear, I don't mean that you, personally, are guilty of this; the balance of your comment suggests that you are not. However, far too many people are. Please elaborate on the problems that "illegal" immigrates cause? We as a whole benefit far greater than they exploit the system. How is it that our first class country is able to prevail w/ our agricultural products being so cheap? Illegal immigrants are far more deserving even at the cost of our healthcare system, in order for them to seek the medical attention they need to continue working in the fields. As for them "not paying taxes" how do they manage to manipulate the system? Illegal immigrants do pay their taxes, what do you think ITIN is for? And if they are NOT paying it then they only LOSE the benefits that this country supplies them with. Don't blindly confuse me to be part of your constituent; I am not your buddy. Wow, no good deed goes unpunished. I went out of my way to be friendly and explicitly give you the benefit of the doubt, and you respond with this outright incivility? Anyway, as you will.... Go educate yourself and read up on the earlier parts of the thread. The undeniable truth is that illegal immigrants do not contribute more to the system than they take out of it. There are multiple articles cited above demonstrating that illegal immigrants are a net drain on the country. More importantly, they are a very severe net drain upon states and communities where there are large communities of illegal immigrants. Yes, some illegal immigrants pay taxes. However, they do not even come close to, as a group, paying enough taxes to cover all of the social benefits that they use. THAT is why the Arizona bill was passed and THAT is why most Americans support it and would like to see similar measures enacted in their states or at a national level.
Yes, I am deliberately discourteous cause you failed to confirm that share the same country bumpkin viewspoints. Also I must go educate myself simply because I have opposing view points! Also don't vaguely elude to some statements like I need to go search myself in order to respond. How about you post them yourself which exact ideas you are for because I can do the same. "
"Yes, immigrants pay for their keep, just go look on the internet!"
|
On May 13 2010 07:13 Sins wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2010 06:51 xDaunt wrote:On May 13 2010 06:32 Sins wrote:On May 13 2010 05:50 xDaunt wrote:On May 13 2010 05:41 Sins wrote:
I would rather have a federal bill that discriminates against ALL individuals than have a bill that discriminates against someone's visible characteristics. I oppose this bill and feel sad for those that are simply supporting it on xenophobic grounds. Here's the problem with the debate. Those who are opposing the new Arizona law are blindly chalking up support for the law to "racism" or "xenophobia," without considering the real, tangible problems that illegal immigration causes. Just to be clear, I don't mean that you, personally, are guilty of this; the balance of your comment suggests that you are not. However, far too many people are. Please elaborate on the problems that "illegal" immigrates cause? We as a whole benefit far greater than they exploit the system. How is it that our first class country is able to prevail w/ our agricultural products being so cheap? Illegal immigrants are far more deserving even at the cost of our healthcare system, in order for them to seek the medical attention they need to continue working in the fields. As for them "not paying taxes" how do they manage to manipulate the system? Illegal immigrants do pay their taxes, what do you think ITIN is for? And if they are NOT paying it then they only LOSE the benefits that this country supplies them with. Don't blindly confuse me to be part of your constituent; I am not your buddy. Wow, no good deed goes unpunished. I went out of my way to be friendly and explicitly give you the benefit of the doubt, and you respond with this outright incivility? Anyway, as you will.... Go educate yourself and read up on the earlier parts of the thread. The undeniable truth is that illegal immigrants do not contribute more to the system than they take out of it. There are multiple articles cited above demonstrating that illegal immigrants are a net drain on the country. More importantly, they are a very severe net drain upon states and communities where there are large communities of illegal immigrants. Yes, some illegal immigrants pay taxes. However, they do not even come close to, as a group, paying enough taxes to cover all of the social benefits that they use. THAT is why the Arizona bill was passed and THAT is why most Americans support it and would like to see similar measures enacted in their states or at a national level. Yes, I am deliberately discourteous cause you failed to confirm that share the same country bumpkin viewspoints. Also I must go educate myself simply because I have opposing view points! Also don't vaguely elude to some statements like I need to go search myself in order to respond. How about you post them yourself which exact ideas you are for.
I don't care if people espouse a point of view that disagrees with my own as long as that point of view is informed and grounded in fact. Arguing that illegal immigrants do not constitute a fiscal burden upon the country at both national and state levels (especially at the state level) is proof that your opinion is uneducated on this matter and that you have no idea what you're talking about. If you want to argue to that illegal immigrants, despite the fiscal burdens, are good for the country, fine. However, your argument apparently is that there are no problems associated with illegal immigration at all. Sorry, but that is as stupid as it is uninformed.
Anyway, since you're apparently too lazy to go read earlier parts of the thread, here are the main things that you should read:
http://www.cfr.org/content/publications/attachments/ImmigrationCSR26.pdf
http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html
http://www.heritage.org/Research/Testimony/The-Fiscal-Cost-of-Low-Skill-Immigrants-to-State-and-Local-Taxpayers
|
The desire to protect the sovereignty of one's national boundaries does not, by definition, make one xenophobic. I am a supporter of tighter border security, but I'm all for reworking the legal process to make it easier for these workers to come legally and documented. My problem with illegal immigration is not that I believe these people are bad (Most of them are fine, hard-working people.). My problem is that there's no accountability when it comes to illegal immigration.
We simply do not know who's coming in, how many people are coming in, and more often than not, there's no documentation whatsoever which is not good for them because they're liable to be exploited because of their status and it's not good for the nation because we need information about who is in the country not only for security concerns, but also to collect taxes and allocate resources appropriately. In the cases of communities with dense illegal immigrant populations, this means that these communities are often receiving funding not representative of their actual population. On top of that, they are collecting less taxes while supporting more people with their social services. To say that illegal immigration doesn't cause issues or create a burden is just plain short-sighted.
|
On May 13 2010 05:15 Destro wrote:Show nested quote +
This is my problem with the people protesting the law. They protest the law on these grounds, but they don't explain a better way to solve the problem because there isn't one. All they are doing essentially is protesting the enforcement of already in place laws and protesting any solution that comes about rather than proposing their own solutions.
This logic people have astounds me. you are essentially saying: "HEY YOU DONT HAVE AN ANSWER SO SHUT UP. " You do not need the right solution to know what the wrong solution is.
In this case I could easily say that and have a legit point, but I'm not saying that. I'm saying if you are protesting the enforcement of already in place laws and protesting any solution that comes you should shut up. You can't sit and protest ANY deterrent to illegal immigration and expect people who want to solve the problem to stop trying to solve it.
Also I don't understand why people are arguing the cost/benefits of illegals being in the US. It doesn't even matter. What matters is its ILLEGAL and shouldn't be happening.
|
I have a few questions to explore the statist mindset in this thread.
Don't bother if you don't wanna. Ignore my post.
To all the people whining about illegal immigration: what have illegal immigrants done to you?
What is the difference between an illegal immigrant to a legal one?
Why do you feel entitled in forcing one to leave and the other one not?
To all the people whining about a loss of jobs or income: do you feel entitled to have a job?
What is it that an illegal immigrant is being so unfair in doing that a legal immigrant cannot do?
Why do you feel entitled in forcing them to do anything?
To all the people whining about a loss of GDP: what's bad about a lower GDP?
What can an illegal immigrant do to lower the GDP that a legal immigrant cannot?
Why do you feel entitled in doing whatever it takes to keep GDP up?
To all the people whining about misused public funds: if the public funds are there to "help the public", why is it a misuse?
What taxes can an illegal immigrant forfeit that a legal immigrant cannot?
Why do you feel entitled to manage the public funds? (tricky question, maybe)
Here are my answers.
+ Show Spoiler +To all the people whining about illegal immigration: what have illegal immigrants done to you?
Nothing.
What is the difference between an illegal immigrant to a legal one?
The legal immigrant has state approval. Thats all.
One could be lucky to earn a lottery green card, the other one not, for example.
Why do you feel entitled in forcing one to leave and the other one not?
I do not, since I do not own the entire geographic region of America, I do not feel entitled to having a say on how it should be managed. Each person is to manage their own property. If they find certain immigrants unproductive and criminally pursuant, they can seize to do business with them, don't rent to them, don't sell houses or anything, and physically impede them only if they do something funny. The whole innocent before guilty thing, you know?
To all the people whining about a loss of jobs or income: do you feel entitled to have a job?
No I do not. The employer can hire whoever he wants. He can hire the one asking for the least, just as I can buy the products selling for less. I respect his choice, he respects mine and that's great.
What is it that an illegal immigrant is being so unfair in doing that a legal immigrant cannot do?
There is nothing. State approval or the lack thereof does not increase or lowers one's productivity. The illegal immigrant undercuts the legal immigrant simply because the legal immigrant is restrained by the government on minimal wage laws. Remove the law, and no complaints can be made. If anything, the complaint right now should be against such laws, indeed, since they don't allow the "legals" to compete with the illegals.
Why do you feel entitled in forcing them to do anything?
I do not. Those who do, might think that they know what's best for them than themselves...
To all the people whining about a loss of GDP: what's bad about a lower GDP?
GDP can be increased or decreased in a number of ways, and the measure is hardly of value to distinguish a raise or decrease in the standards of living. To me, it's a useless statistic. A country at war could have an awesome GDP making tanks and blowing up shit (USA included perhaps). Is that good? See broken window fallacy.
What can an illegal immigrant do to lower the GDP that a legal immigrant cannot?
They can work for less income, consequently lowering the cost of products and services that are available. Is that a bad thing? I don't think so, I like Walmart and cheap stuff.
Why do you feel entitled in doing whatever it takes to keep GDP up?
I do not, since I do not own the GDP (lol). The state claims to own it though, obviously since they are so interested in managing "the economy" (aka you and me)
To all the people whining about misused public funds: if the public funds are there to "help the public", why is it a misuse?
Not a misuse. Though I can see why one would think so.
What taxes can an illegal immigrant forfeit that a legal immigrant cannot?
Federal taxes mostly. State taxes are almost unavoidable AFAIK. So those schools and hospitals? they're paid for the illegals too. But I could be wrong, whatever.
Why do you feel entitled to manage the public funds? (tricky question, maybe)
Yeah, those two questions above are pointless to me because the "public funds" are not really public in my eyes. They're state owned. The state decides what to do with it. You have a recourse in the manner of elections every now and then, mailing your representatives or whatever BS, but really, it's state owned. The state decides and controls the funds. And it becomes theirs right when you forfeit it as taxes. You have no claim to it any longer. State gets your money, state spends your money. Thats how it goes.
Now, if the relation between state and citizen could be changed so the state first offers a service and then you're free to buy it or not, well, maybe it could be improved a bit that way. But what am I saying, wishing that I could forfeit having to pay for services that I did not request. How childish of me.
|
On May 13 2010 07:30 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2010 07:13 Sins wrote:On May 13 2010 06:51 xDaunt wrote:On May 13 2010 06:32 Sins wrote:On May 13 2010 05:50 xDaunt wrote:On May 13 2010 05:41 Sins wrote:
I would rather have a federal bill that discriminates against ALL individuals than have a bill that discriminates against someone's visible characteristics. I oppose this bill and feel sad for those that are simply supporting it on xenophobic grounds. Here's the problem with the debate. Those who are opposing the new Arizona law are blindly chalking up support for the law to "racism" or "xenophobia," without considering the real, tangible problems that illegal immigration causes. Just to be clear, I don't mean that you, personally, are guilty of this; the balance of your comment suggests that you are not. However, far too many people are. Please elaborate on the problems that "illegal" immigrates cause? We as a whole benefit far greater than they exploit the system. How is it that our first class country is able to prevail w/ our agricultural products being so cheap? Illegal immigrants are far more deserving even at the cost of our healthcare system, in order for them to seek the medical attention they need to continue working in the fields. As for them "not paying taxes" how do they manage to manipulate the system? Illegal immigrants do pay their taxes, what do you think ITIN is for? And if they are NOT paying it then they only LOSE the benefits that this country supplies them with. Don't blindly confuse me to be part of your constituent; I am not your buddy. Wow, no good deed goes unpunished. I went out of my way to be friendly and explicitly give you the benefit of the doubt, and you respond with this outright incivility? Anyway, as you will.... Go educate yourself and read up on the earlier parts of the thread. The undeniable truth is that illegal immigrants do not contribute more to the system than they take out of it. There are multiple articles cited above demonstrating that illegal immigrants are a net drain on the country. More importantly, they are a very severe net drain upon states and communities where there are large communities of illegal immigrants. Yes, some illegal immigrants pay taxes. However, they do not even come close to, as a group, paying enough taxes to cover all of the social benefits that they use. THAT is why the Arizona bill was passed and THAT is why most Americans support it and would like to see similar measures enacted in their states or at a national level. Yes, I am deliberately discourteous cause you failed to confirm that share the same country bumpkin viewspoints. Also I must go educate myself simply because I have opposing view points! Also don't vaguely elude to some statements like I need to go search myself in order to respond. How about you post them yourself which exact ideas you are for. I don't care if people espouse a point of view that disagrees with my own as long as that point of view is informed and grounded in fact. Arguing that illegal immigrants do not constitute a fiscal burden upon the country at both national and state levels (especially at the state level) is proof that your opinion is uneducated on this matter and that you have no idea what you're talking about. If you want to argue to that illegal immigrants, despite the fiscal burdens, are good for the country, fine. However, your argument apparently is that there are no problems associated with illegal immigration at all. Sorry, but that is as stupid as it is uninformed. Anyway, since you're apparently too lazy to go read earlier parts of the thread, here are the main things that you should read: http://www.cfr.org/content/publications/attachments/ImmigrationCSR26.pdfhttp://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.htmlhttp://www.heritage.org/Research/Testimony/The-Fiscal-Cost-of-Low-Skill-Immigrants-to-State-and-Local-Taxpayers
Stop using ad hominem remarks it will not validate your points! Apparently you firmly believe that those individuals who are under the notion that "illegal" immigrants are NOT a burden are "uneducated". Well that's very bigot of you, I'm just responding with the same chauvinist courtesy. I find it hilarious the rhetoric you're spewing without even questioning it because you're denying natives who are more deserving of their inherited resources than you are.
I also never stated, "However, your argument apparently is that there are no problems associated with illegal immigration at all" in fact I would like those individuals that do indeed commit crimes to be deported! Most Mexicans have zero tolerance for criminals which just illustrate to you how they treat them in Mexican prison. Their culture carries heavier morals and discipline since 80% percent of them are practicing Catholics.
Also here's some opposing views but I doubt I'll convince you seen you're unwilling to dispose of your already existing prejudices:
http://www.workpermit.com/news/2006-12-15/us/illegal_immigrants_not_burden_health_care.htm
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN26407393
http://foundationcenter.org/pnd/news/story.jhtml?id=162600004
http://www.examiner.com/x-21635-El-Paso-Culture-Examiner~y2009m12d29-Illegal-Immigrants-do-not-drain-public-services
http://www.visalaw.com/h09nov/13hnov09.html
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2009/01/illegals-medica.html
|
The law should be passes nationally. But first like I said we need to secure the border. We should also make it easier for productive people to immigrate here legally.
it did, the az law is a water down version of the federal law, if anything, az is doing the illegals a favor- law wise
|
I'd love to see what would happen if Arizona actually did get rid of all the illegal immigrants. I imagine the costs of new construction or remodeling would skyrocket so high it would way outweigh any supposed strain they put on the economy.
I worked for a general contractor for a year in Albuquerque in between undergrad and grad school and we were completely dependent on "amigos" to have competitive bids. Demolition, landscaping, block laying, concrete pouring... all bid knowing we'd pay waaaaay under minimum wage. Those guys work hard too, take short breaks and don't get paid extra for overtime.
Most people I encounter with an "It's ILLEGAL, throw them out, DUH" attitude when it comes to this issue have no idea how key illegal labor is in southwestern states (not sure what it's like in the rest of the country). It is not a simple issue. Having worked with a fair number of them personally, the majority of them are good people that just want to work hard and earn some money.
Living in SoCal now, from what I see they are even more key. My land lady did a ton of remodeling on my apt building and my rent rarely went up. And I love the cheap local produce, avocados and strawberries ftw! I live near some businesses that wholesale bricks and outdoor flooring, tons of guys waiting around and getting picked up every day.
I honestly can't imagine a "solution" to the illegal immigration "problem" that would go well. Deport them all, at a huge law enforcement expense? Build a wall??? Watch tons of American businesses that depend on them go under or drop minimum wage to $1.25? Force people on unemployment and welfare to do physical labor?
That's why politicians have generally left it alone, execpt for the occasional empty "We need reform!" campaign speech. It's political suicide to actually mess with it. Those Arizona lawmakers are toast once the effects of the boycotts start to hit the economy.
|
On May 13 2010 08:15 Yurebis wrote:
To all the people whining about illegal immigration: what have illegal immigrants done to you?
Nothing directly. There are others who may have had bad personal experiences, but I haven't.
On May 13 2010 08:15 Yurebis wrote:
What is the difference between an illegal immigrant to a legal one?
The answer is in the question. What's the difference between a legal firearm and an illegal one? Or for the matter, legal drugs and illegal drugs? It's a stupid question. The difference is the process or circumstances which make one legal and the latter illegal.
On May 13 2010 08:15 Yurebis wrote:
Why do you feel entitled in forcing one to leave and the other one not?
I do not feel entitled to force anyone to do anything personally. The government on the other hand is completely entitled to force illegal immigrants to leave because they were never given permission to come here in the first place.
On May 13 2010 08:15 Yurebis wrote:
To all the people whining about a loss of jobs or income: do you feel entitled to have a job?
No, I don't feel that I'm entitled to a job, but a government has a responsibility to protect the interest of its citizens. Foreign interests are secondary to this, particularly if those foreign interests are not acting legally while I am.
On May 13 2010 08:15 Yurebis wrote:
What is it that an illegal immigrant is being so unfair in doing that a legal immigrant cannot do?
They're essentially "cutting the line" by running across the border when thousands of people all over the world are doing things the right way to come here legally. If you cannot see what's wrong with that, then I really cannot help you.
On May 13 2010 08:15 Yurebis wrote:
Why do you feel entitled in forcing them to do anything?
I am not entitled to anything. The government, however, is. This is the United States of America and the law of the land reigns supreme within these borders.
On May 13 2010 08:15 Yurebis wrote:
To all the people whining about a loss of GDP: what's bad about a lower GDP?
http://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/199.asp
On May 13 2010 08:15 Yurebis wrote:
What can an illegal immigrant do to lower the GDP that a legal immigrant cannot?
Considering the complex nature of how GDP's are calculated, I honestly cannot answer this. Maybe you should be asking someone who's good with economics.
On May 13 2010 08:15 Yurebis wrote:
Why do you feel entitled in doing whatever it takes to keep GDP up?
It's not that we're "entitled in doing whatever it takes to keep GDP up", it's that economic growth is a positive thing for this nation and therefore, we are going to do what we can to increase it.
On May 13 2010 08:15 Yurebis wrote:
To all the people whining about misused public funds: if the public funds are there to "help the public", why is it a misuse?
It's misuse because it's meant to help the tax-paying public and legal residents of this country. By your logic, it would not be misuse of public funds to take all the money and send it to Africa to help the public there. The word, "public" in this case refers to (or at least is supposed to) a specific group of people.
On May 13 2010 08:15 Yurebis wrote:
What taxes can an illegal immigrant forfeit that a legal immigrant cannot?
Illegal immigrants technically don't exist so far as the government is concerned so theoretically, they can evade every tax except for the ones attached to the goods they buy. Of course anyone else can choose to evade every tax as well, but there are legal implications to doing that for everyone else. This is not to say illegal immigrants don't pay taxes. A lot of them actually do. But a good number of them don't and that causes issues.
On May 13 2010 08:15 Yurebis wrote:Why do you feel entitled to manage the public funds? (tricky question, maybe)
While I do not personally feel entitled to manage public funds, I do feel entitled as part of the tax-paying community to have a voice in how these public funds garnered through taxes are spent. You may understand that when the government takes 40% of my salary in taxes and uses it to subsidize the living of someone who doesn't rather than in things that benefit me and my community, I may have a problem with that. This is particularly the case when that 40% of my income that they take away has a drastic effect on my quality of life and sometimes, my ability to pay my own bills.
|
On May 13 2010 08:36 Sins wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2010 07:30 xDaunt wrote:On May 13 2010 07:13 Sins wrote:On May 13 2010 06:51 xDaunt wrote:On May 13 2010 06:32 Sins wrote:On May 13 2010 05:50 xDaunt wrote:On May 13 2010 05:41 Sins wrote:
I would rather have a federal bill that discriminates against ALL individuals than have a bill that discriminates against someone's visible characteristics. I oppose this bill and feel sad for those that are simply supporting it on xenophobic grounds. Here's the problem with the debate. Those who are opposing the new Arizona law are blindly chalking up support for the law to "racism" or "xenophobia," without considering the real, tangible problems that illegal immigration causes. Just to be clear, I don't mean that you, personally, are guilty of this; the balance of your comment suggests that you are not. However, far too many people are. Please elaborate on the problems that "illegal" immigrates cause? We as a whole benefit far greater than they exploit the system. How is it that our first class country is able to prevail w/ our agricultural products being so cheap? Illegal immigrants are far more deserving even at the cost of our healthcare system, in order for them to seek the medical attention they need to continue working in the fields. As for them "not paying taxes" how do they manage to manipulate the system? Illegal immigrants do pay their taxes, what do you think ITIN is for? And if they are NOT paying it then they only LOSE the benefits that this country supplies them with. Don't blindly confuse me to be part of your constituent; I am not your buddy. Wow, no good deed goes unpunished. I went out of my way to be friendly and explicitly give you the benefit of the doubt, and you respond with this outright incivility? Anyway, as you will.... Go educate yourself and read up on the earlier parts of the thread. The undeniable truth is that illegal immigrants do not contribute more to the system than they take out of it. There are multiple articles cited above demonstrating that illegal immigrants are a net drain on the country. More importantly, they are a very severe net drain upon states and communities where there are large communities of illegal immigrants. Yes, some illegal immigrants pay taxes. However, they do not even come close to, as a group, paying enough taxes to cover all of the social benefits that they use. THAT is why the Arizona bill was passed and THAT is why most Americans support it and would like to see similar measures enacted in their states or at a national level. Yes, I am deliberately discourteous cause you failed to confirm that share the same country bumpkin viewspoints. Also I must go educate myself simply because I have opposing view points! Also don't vaguely elude to some statements like I need to go search myself in order to respond. How about you post them yourself which exact ideas you are for. I don't care if people espouse a point of view that disagrees with my own as long as that point of view is informed and grounded in fact. Arguing that illegal immigrants do not constitute a fiscal burden upon the country at both national and state levels (especially at the state level) is proof that your opinion is uneducated on this matter and that you have no idea what you're talking about. If you want to argue to that illegal immigrants, despite the fiscal burdens, are good for the country, fine. However, your argument apparently is that there are no problems associated with illegal immigration at all. Sorry, but that is as stupid as it is uninformed. Anyway, since you're apparently too lazy to go read earlier parts of the thread, here are the main things that you should read: http://www.cfr.org/content/publications/attachments/ImmigrationCSR26.pdfhttp://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.htmlhttp://www.heritage.org/Research/Testimony/The-Fiscal-Cost-of-Low-Skill-Immigrants-to-State-and-Local-Taxpayers Stop using ad hominem remarks it will not validate your points! Apparently you firmly believe that those individuals who are under the notion that "illegal" immigrants are NOT a burden are "uneducated". Well that's very bigot of you, I'm just responding with the same chauvinist courtesy. I find it hilarious the rhetoric you're spewing without even questioning it because you're denying natives who are more deserving of their inherited resources than you are. I also never stated, "However, your argument apparently is that there are no problems associated with illegal immigration at all" in fact I would like those individuals that do indeed commit crimes to be deported! Most Mexicans have zero tolerance for criminals which just illustrate to you how they treat them in Mexican prison. Their culture carries heavier morals and discipline since 80% percent of them are practicing Catholics. Also here's some opposing views but I doubt I'll convince you seen you're unwilling to dispose of your already existing prejudices: http://www.workpermit.com/news/2006-12-15/us/illegal_immigrants_not_burden_health_care.htmhttp://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN26407393http://foundationcenter.org/pnd/news/story.jhtml?id=162600004http://www.examiner.com/x-21635-El-Paso-Culture-Examiner~y2009m12d29-Illegal-Immigrants-do-not-drain-public-serviceshttp://www.visalaw.com/h09nov/13hnov09.htmlhttp://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2009/01/illegals-medica.html
Don't look at me and complain about ad hominem attacks. You're the guy that decided to be " deliberately discourteous" as you so eloquently put it earlier. Also, I never once attacked you personally. Just your opinions. Now, whether the stupidity of some of the things that you have said reflect poorly upon you personally is something that's up to the audience. And yes, anyone who does not recognize the burdens that illegal immigrants pose is either uneducated or grossly ignorant. I've give you plenty of information to arm yourself for intelligent conversation on the topic. I even gave you a valid argument on which you could stand. What you do with those is up to you.
Anyway, let's turn to your authorities:
[http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN26407393] This article is not on point. Again, you are confusing the issue of how illegal immigrants affect the US as a whole and how illegal immigrants affect local communities. On a national level, no, illegal immigrants aren't going to over-burden the health system because most communities around the USA do not have large illegal populations. Now, how illegal immigrants affect just Arizona is another matter. If you can't even understand this basic concept of national vs local effects of illegal immigration, you should just quit now.
[http://www.workpermit.com/news/2006-12-15/us/illegal_immigrants_not_burden_health_care.htm]
[http://foundationcenter.org/pnd/news/story.jhtml?id=162600004] So here you have two articles quoting two studies. One study says illegal immigrants cost $1.1 billion nationally for health care. The other says that the cost is $1.4 billion for Los Angeles alone. A good family friend of mine is a CFO at a major hospital in California. I assure you that the latter study is the more accurate one.
[http://www.examiner.com/x-21635-El-Paso-Culture-Examiner~y2009m12d29-Illegal-Immigrants-do-not-drain-public-services] This article is a joke. No citations. Just unsubstantiated garbage. His claim that illegal immigrants pay high levels of taxes, especially that they pay enough taxes to cover their services, is pure bullshit. Most illegal immigrants do not pay taxes because they have to stay off the grid for obvious reasons. Go find a study with real facts and citations like the ones that I posted.
[http://www.visalaw.com/h09nov/13hnov09.html] This article has the same problems as the Reuters article.
[http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2009/01/illegals-medica.html] This article also isn't on point. It talks about doctors suing over MediCal (medicaid for California) reimbursements. As the doctors pointed out, medicaid does not concern illegal immigrants. What the article does not discuss is how hospitals and medical providers are often left uncompensated for treatment that they give to illegal immigrants. That's another topic.
None of these articles are particularly useful or on point. Furthermore, they only address health care, which is not even the biggest problem. Where are you authorities on how illegal immigration increases state education costs? How about the cost of incarcerating illegal aliens that are criminals? Go back to the drawing board, tiger.
|
To all the people whining about illegal immigration: what have illegal immigrants done to you?
Nothing.
You are just to dumb to figure out how they have effected you. Sure one has never walked up to you and punched you in the gut however I guarantee illegal immigration has effected every person in the country in some way..
|
On May 13 2010 09:28 JinMaikeul wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2010 08:15 Yurebis wrote:
To all the people whining about illegal immigration: what have illegal immigrants done to you? Nothing directly. There are others who may have had bad personal experiences, but I haven't.
thx for taking my questions
On May 13 2010 09:28 JinMaikeul wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2010 08:15 Yurebis wrote:
What is the difference between an illegal immigrant to a legal one?
The answer is in the question. What's the difference between a legal firearm and an illegal one? Or for the matter, legal drugs and illegal drugs? It's a stupid question. The difference is the process or circumstances which make one legal and the latter illegal. The process in which the state gave their approval or disapproval to some of them, right?
On May 13 2010 09:28 JinMaikeul wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2010 08:15 Yurebis wrote:
Why do you feel entitled in forcing one to leave and the other one not? I do not feel entitled to force anyone to do anything personally. The government on the other hand is completely entitled to force illegal immigrants to leave because they were never given permission to come here in the first place.
The state claims to be entitled to regulate all land. Do you agree with them on the decision of deporting illegal immigrants?
I mean, if I pay and ask a security guard to kick some junkie out of my bar, I am forcing that junkie out of my bar, am I not?
You are therefore forcing them by proxy basically...
On May 13 2010 09:28 JinMaikeul wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2010 08:15 Yurebis wrote:
To all the people whining about a loss of jobs or income: do you feel entitled to have a job? No, I don't feel that I'm entitled to a job, but a government has a responsibility to protect the interest of its citizens. Foreign interests are secondary to this, particularly if those foreign interests are not acting legally while I am.
Again, if you agree on the governments decision to kick out the foreign competition, and is paying them to, it's the same as if you were doing that mercantilist routine yourself... don't you agree?
On May 13 2010 09:28 JinMaikeul wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2010 08:15 Yurebis wrote:
What is it that an illegal immigrant is being so unfair in doing that a legal immigrant cannot do? They're essentially "cutting the line" by running across the border when thousands of people all over the world are doing things the right way to come here legally. If you cannot see what's wrong with that, then I really cannot help you.
The line which was arbitrarily drawn by the government.
Which arbitrarily claims to own all land.
That's fine with me if you respect their claim, and I do too to an extent, but only utilitarianly (not sure if that word exists lol), aka don't want to be arrested.
Hardly something I'd be proud to agree on, much like I wouldn't be proud of giving away my wallet at gunpoint.
On May 13 2010 09:28 JinMaikeul wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2010 08:15 Yurebis wrote:
Why do you feel entitled in forcing them to do anything? I am not entitled to anything. The government, however, is. This is the United States of America and the law of the land reigns supreme within these borders.
Ok, so the government owns all land. 
From that website, one of the first lines
For example, if the year-to-year GDP is up 3%, this is thought to mean that the economy has grown by 3% over the last year.
It is thought, by keynesians, that the economy has grown. However this is demonstrably false, see the "broken window fallacy" somewhere. GDP can grow for any number of increased products or services that are actually no good "for the economy" (whatever that means). E.g. is making tanks, huge and unusable nails, breaking windows and then fixing them good for "the economy"? I don't know man, but they're sure good for the GDP.
The trick here is realising that "the economy" and the GDP are separate concepts, the first one being almost impossible to gauge the values of (too many people with individual wishes and needs for any single or group of economists to account for)
On May 13 2010 09:28 JinMaikeul wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2010 08:15 Yurebis wrote:
What can an illegal immigrant do to lower the GDP that a legal immigrant cannot? Considering the complex nature of how GDP's are calculated, I honestly cannot answer this. Maybe you should be asking someone who's good with economics.
np
On May 13 2010 09:28 JinMaikeul wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2010 08:15 Yurebis wrote:
Why do you feel entitled in doing whatever it takes to keep GDP up? It's not that we're "entitled in doing whatever it takes to keep GDP up", it's that economic growth is a positive thing for this nation and therefore, we are going to do what we can to increase it.
"economy growth" =/= gdp growth, at the very least not necessarily so.
(if I got the least understanding of what you mean by "economy")
On May 13 2010 09:28 JinMaikeul wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2010 08:15 Yurebis wrote:
To all the people whining about misused public funds: if the public funds are there to "help the public", why is it a misuse? It's misuse because it's meant to help the tax-paying public and legal residents of this country. By your logic, it would not be misuse of public funds to take all the money and send it to Africa to help the public there. The word, "public" in this case refers to (or at least is supposed to) a specific group of people.
The people living at those places maybe?
The way I see it is, you give money to a public fund for public services, and don't want it spend in your neighborhood because some people aren't labelled as legal by your state? Why not? If the purpose of those funds is to elevate the "public good" (lol can't believe I'm saying that), then I wouldn't give a damn where they spend it as long as it's in my state/township. Give it to sick puppies, illegal sick puppies even.
On May 13 2010 09:28 JinMaikeul wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2010 08:15 Yurebis wrote:
What taxes can an illegal immigrant forfeit that a legal immigrant cannot?
Illegal immigrants technically don't exist so far as the government is concerned so theoretically, they can evade every tax except for the ones attached to the goods they buy. Of course anyone else can choose to evade every tax as well, but there are legal implications to doing that for everyone else. This is not to say illegal immigrants don't pay taxes. A lot of them actually do. But a good number of them don't and that causes issues.
There's land taxes too which I don't think illegal aliens can evade too good.
Especially if they're renting which in that case it's payed by the landlord already
And AFAIK, those land taxes are what pay for things in most states. But I could be wrong, and I'd like if someone (googled info 4 me lol and) explained it better.
On May 13 2010 09:28 JinMaikeul wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2010 08:15 Yurebis wrote:Why do you feel entitled to manage the public funds? (tricky question, maybe)
While I do not personally feel entitled to manage public funds, I do feel entitled as part of the tax-paying community to have a voice in how these public funds garnered through taxes are spent. You may understand that when the government takes 40% of my salary in taxes and uses it to subsidize the living of someone who doesn't rather than in things that benefit me and my community, I may have a problem with that. This is particularly the case when that 40% of my income that they take away has a drastic effect on my quality of life and sometimes, my ability to pay my own bills.
Yes thats fine. I see how one would feel entitled to say how a thief can use his stolen money too.
I just don't because I'd rather call the thief a thief instead of trying to negotiate. ty 4 reading these poor utopian thoughts
|
On May 13 2010 10:04 Weedman wrote:Show nested quote +To all the people whining about illegal immigration: what have illegal immigrants done to you?
Nothing. You are just to dumb to figure out how they have effected you. Sure one has never walked up to you and punched you in the gut however I guarantee illegal immigration has effected every person in the country in some way..
Give me some example or thought experiment.
If the only difference between an illegal immigrant and the legal immigrant is state approval, then I doubt anything the illegal does is something the legal wouldn't do.
Or the native wouldn't do for that matter.
|
On May 13 2010 10:08 Yurebis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2010 10:04 Weedman wrote:To all the people whining about illegal immigration: what have illegal immigrants done to you?
Nothing. You are just to dumb to figure out how they have effected you. Sure one has never walked up to you and punched you in the gut however I guarantee illegal immigration has effected every person in the country in some way.. Give me some example or thought experiment. If the only difference between an illegal immigrant and the legal immigrant is state approval, then I doubt anything the illegal does is something the legal wouldn't do. Or the native wouldn't do for that matter.
There's been ample discussion in this thread about how illegal immigrants negatively affect Americans. To sum it up, states and communities suffer from high populations of illegal immigrants because the illegal immigrants drain local resources and state resources, causing fiscal problems. That is why Arizona is cracking down with this bill.
|
On May 13 2010 10:19 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2010 10:08 Yurebis wrote:On May 13 2010 10:04 Weedman wrote:To all the people whining about illegal immigration: what have illegal immigrants done to you?
Nothing. You are just to dumb to figure out how they have effected you. Sure one has never walked up to you and punched you in the gut however I guarantee illegal immigration has effected every person in the country in some way.. Give me some example or thought experiment. If the only difference between an illegal immigrant and the legal immigrant is state approval, then I doubt anything the illegal does is something the legal wouldn't do. Or the native wouldn't do for that matter. There's been ample discussion in this thread about how illegal immigrants negatively affect Americans. To sum it up, states and communities suffer from high populations of illegal immigrants because the illegal immigrants drain local resources and state resources, causing fiscal problems. That is why Arizona is cracking down with this bill.
Define drain. How do they drain it? Are they stealing, invading and killing?
Or are they just using a public resource that was put in place by the state?
Imagine the same thing were to happen on private property. You are in a restaurant, and a bunch of mexicans come in and just eat everything. It also happens that you weren't able to get the meal you actually paid for. Who do you complain to and about?
I'd complain to and about the restaurant, not the freeloaders which were just taking what the restaurant was giving out for free.
Why is it not the same deal when it comes to public property? Can't you come out openly and say that it's owned by the state? The state is the restaurant. But it's funny that the state can offload those complaints to others when he just points the finger at greedy capitalists or illegal immigrants for its own administrative inabilities...
|
wow yurebis you are truly idiotic
following your ridiculous restaurant analogy, the restaurant owners and customers are pissed now that they've run out of funds because of these free loaders
nobody was giving out anything for free; these mexicans just sneaked and hide in a closet while coming out during night to grab food from the pantry
now they want to change that and kick out these free loaders
i fail to see what you are arguing against here
even IF these illegal immigrants don't cause financial strain (they do), it's competlely absurd for them to come to US
should korea just allow japanese citizens to randomly visit without visas? should china allow vietnamese to enter the country without visas? there is an utter lack of accountability and documentation
it is illegal for a reason
i mentioned this earlier but another big reason is that this is huge injustice for the millions of other foreigners who dearly want to come to this country but cannot simply sneak over a border like the mex
do you have any idea how complicated/involved/time-consuming/difficult it is for a foreigner to be allowed to 1) come to this country and 2)stay here?
well, i know what my parents had to go through and shit you say is insulting to them
User was temp banned for this post.
|
On May 13 2010 10:40 Yurebis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2010 10:19 xDaunt wrote:On May 13 2010 10:08 Yurebis wrote:On May 13 2010 10:04 Weedman wrote:To all the people whining about illegal immigration: what have illegal immigrants done to you?
Nothing. You are just to dumb to figure out how they have effected you. Sure one has never walked up to you and punched you in the gut however I guarantee illegal immigration has effected every person in the country in some way.. Give me some example or thought experiment. If the only difference between an illegal immigrant and the legal immigrant is state approval, then I doubt anything the illegal does is something the legal wouldn't do. Or the native wouldn't do for that matter. There's been ample discussion in this thread about how illegal immigrants negatively affect Americans. To sum it up, states and communities suffer from high populations of illegal immigrants because the illegal immigrants drain local resources and state resources, causing fiscal problems. That is why Arizona is cracking down with this bill. Define drain. How do they drain it? Are they stealing, invading and killing? Or are they just using a public resource that was put in place by the state? Imagine the same thing were to happen on private property. You are in a restaurant, and a bunch of mexicans come in and just eat everything. It also happens that you weren't able to get the meal you actually paid for. Who do you complain to and about? I'd complain to and about the restaurant, not the freeloaders which were just taking what the restaurant was giving out for free. Why is it not the same deal when it comes to public property? Can't you come out openly and say that it's owned by the state? The state is the restaurant. But it's funny that the state can offload those complaints to others when he just points the finger at greedy capitalists or illegal immigrants for its own administrative inabilities...
That's why Arizona is doing something by trying to get rid of the illegals? If its the state's problem, the state needs to come up with a solution. In your analogy, the obvious solution would be to eat the costs and then kick the Mexicans out and never let them come again.
|
Incidentally, don't you already have to show identification most times a cop stops you, especially if you're being ticketed/charged?
And don't you, most places in the US, already have to be a legal resident in order to have legal identification?
I'm honestly not seeing that this law actually accomplishes anything new. As far as I can tell, it's a rhetorical ploy by the AZ GOP to say, "Look, we're dealing with the issue!" when in fact it doesn't change anything. It's already illegal to be an illegal immigrant, you already have to show an ID any time you're pulled over by a cop... this really doesn't add anything except a bunch of verbiage.
|
On May 13 2010 10:52 Musoeun wrote:
Incidentally, don't you already have to show identification most times a cop stops you, especially if you're being ticketed/charged?
And don't you, most places in the US, already have to be a legal resident in order to have legal identification?
I'm honestly not seeing that this law actually accomplishes anything new. As far as I can tell, it's a rhetorical ploy by the AZ GOP to say, "Look, we're dealing with the issue!" when in fact it doesn't change anything. It's already illegal to be an illegal immigrant, you already have to show an ID any time you're pulled over by a cop... this really doesn't add anything except a bunch of verbiage.
The law allows Arizona to make it a crime if you're an illegal. The best Arizona could do previously if they saw an illegal was detain him or her for 48 hours waiting for an immigration official. Ultimately, the official doesn't come and the police will need to release the illegal.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
