Sorry if this is the wrong forum to put this, but I need serious responses. I know I have to do something, but not sure what my best plan of action is.
My friend is going through a lot of distress. The cause of her distress is not something that is going to go away. She's losing her house, in massive amounts of debt, can't declare bankruptcy because courts will unravel the fact that she frauded a bunch of paperwork (T4's / notice of assessments).
For 1 month now she's been only able to sleep 1-2 hours a night. She's sick because she's in such bad health due to lack of sleep. Lack of sleep caused by such incredible amounts of stress.
On anti depressants / valium / bunch of other crap given to her by doctors but none of it is actually working. She's getting worse by the week.
I've tried for dozens and dozens of hours to talk to her and try to convince her it isn't so freaking bad, but she won't have any of it. The stress of the whole situation is way too enormous for her.
Wants me to help her suicide, and knowing her she's actually really serious about it.
She's flying in on Monday. My plan is to check her into the hospital on Tuesday.
The only way your plan could be improved is by checking in her in on Monday instead of waiting the day.
You are doing the right thing, she needs professional help since it's clear you've tried to help and cannot. Stay there for her, but make sure she gets the help she needs too.
seriously you should give her some hope, distraction, inspiration or addiction of something. good luck. please do tell her that she is very important to you.
On November 14 2009 14:15 Tien wrote: Wants me to help her suicide, and knowing her she's actually really serious about it.
Holy shit.
Every area should have toll free suicide hotlines that you can call (even if you're not the one contemplating it), they can recommend what to do/say. I honestly don't even want to take a stab at it other than to say at this point, professionals need to be involved (police asap if she tries anything).
As far as what you can do, just be supportive, let her know you'll always be there to support her, but DO NOT downplay her problems, she'll know you're full of it. Just tell her you're always there, she obviously seems to trust you more than anyone else in the world.
Continue to be there for her and help convince her that this isn't the end of her story and there is a life past this whole debt situation. Take one step at a time.
I'm no psychological specialist, but I think your friend needs to: 1) accept the fact (she should have already, actually) that theres nobody else to blame except herself for the situation she's in. The more people she can blame her misery to, the more hatred grows and the farther away from the world she gets. 2) find a reason to live. This is hard - it could be love (probably the best motive and the hardest to "make one up"), some sort of a legacy, hobbies (strong ones), personal goals, power and fame, whatever.
I think it'll be best of you to simply spend time with her and keep her feel like she's part of the world. Often suicides occur because the person feels alone, isolated, unloved and uncared. She needs to know that, many times and often, and make sure she gets it. This is different from trying to convince her it's not so bad because if a person's contemplating suicide, it's very likely that her only voice of reason is her own and nobody else's. That's why it's important to constantly show she's not alone - her voice of reason might start listening to yours, and others.
On November 14 2009 14:25 aRod wrote: Get her to a hospital ASAP. She needs to be involuntarily or voluntarily commited. Both of which are legal when someone is considering suicide.
This. Very least get her to call one of the free hotlines. At the most phone the police and get them to stop her. Tbh it doesn't sound like she has a decent exit strategy from this anyway so you can't make shit must worse by intervening. Short of winning the lottery shit will hit the fan.
She might hate you for interfering, especially if you just bluntly tell people what's on so they can help her. It'd be a breach of trust. But being hated by a living friend > burying one and wondering what you could have done more.
She wants me to help her do it (yeah fucking right). I even lied to her and told her I'd help her do it (loooooool) but only to convince her to fly over to Montreal from Calgary to help her finish some other urgent business affairs.
But how long can someone survive on 1-2 hours of sleep a day? She's going to turn into a Heath Ledger.
On November 14 2009 14:33 Tien wrote: She won't do it on her own.
She wants me to help her do it (yeah fucking right). I even lied to her and told her I'd help her do it (loooooool) but only to convince her to fly over to Montreal from Calgary to help her finish some other urgent business affairs.
But how long can someone survive on 1-2 hours of sleep a day? She's going to turn into a Heath Ledger.
erkkhmm if your a guy.. you can do something about it.
my friend commited suicide. they said they had the university doctors examine him and they said he was normal, etc so they didn't do any follow up checks. however he wasnt. he tried to get into a car crash on his own but he decided not to for some reason. he ended up shooting himself in the head in a parking lot.
do NOT leave her alone. dont know what to say on talking to her but i would try to boost her esteem, show her that she is loved, what she has to look forward too.
talk to her. let her know that with alot of work and time she will be alright. get some professional help and for heaven's sake get her off the valium!
If you're in university they should have a place to call specifically for situations like this, otherwise what ET said. You can find these by looking at community page or hospital websites (or if you just call the police and ask them to direct you the operate will know). Your plan is to get her to a professional and help in whatever way they see fit.
If she suddenly feels well, don't take it as a sign of relief because she might of thought of a clever suicide technique, and suddenly not worried anymore... Be cautious.
talk to her. let her know that with alot of work and time she will be alright. get some professional help and for heaven's sake get her off the valium!
On November 14 2009 14:15 Tien wrote: She's losing her house, in massive amounts of debt, can't declare bankruptcy because courts will unravel the fact that she frauded a bunch of paperwork (T4's / notice of assessments).
Make her call the hot-lines. Those people are trained to listen and to make her feel understood, which will help reduce her pressure. She might not want to talk to them at first, but try to gently coax her into it. If the situation demands, you can even call for her and talk to those people first, and then give the phone to her and leave the room/or not depending on her needs.
Do not under any circumstance give her "hard advice", stuff like "just tough it up", take responsibility, ectect. Any smart intelligent being would have already thought of that or heard it from some other jackass, so go away captain obvious. Shes already smashing herself into bits inside, and doesnt need you to add to it.
Tell her from the start you wont help her suicide, so she knows you're not lying to her and you can be trusted. And be with her as much as possible. Not just that emotionally "call me anytime! im here for you!" bullshit. Actually stick by her side for lengthy periods of time. Bring your computer over and play starcraft or something. Suicide is an incredibly lonely experience, company is welcomed even if she pushes you away, find some other way to negotiate to stick around.
Get used to silence, it might be uncomfortable for you, and you might try to fill it with conversation, but long drawn out silences to you are just short periods of time for her to wallow in her own depressive thoughts. I'm not saying don't giver her any silent time, but just that sometimes silence is needed and don't try to dispel it.
!!!!MOST IMPORANTLY!!!! She will not have the motivation to kill herself at the pit of depression. She will do it when she is recovering and actually feels a little better and more in control. DO NOT let your guard down once she is on the recovery path, in-fact, thats the most dangerous time, so stick around her even more then.
Gently, if you can, tease out her secret suicide plan if she has one, and take the necessary precautions. Remove scissors and firearms, turn off the gas, lock the windows.
If you have many friends who want to help, you can even set up a rotation schedule to be with her at all times.
Edit: The hospital thing depends on the situation. Some people are open to it, some people violently reject the stigma/label of being hospitalized. My uncle was of the latter category and coupled with some other stuff, was porobably what pushed him over the edge. Also hospital staff are not always reliable, you will always care about her more than they do.
I think taking her to the hospital involuntarily will be difficult. See if they can pick her up (serious) and attempt to coax her in the mean time and make sure she can't bail on you.
Something important to note about anti-depressants: they can actually make your depression worse under certain biological conditions. You need to get her to a doctor ASAP. Be there for her and help her through this mess.
check with your local PD about involuntarily commitment is the first thing I'd do. I'm no psychological, but just let her know your there for her even if she in a hospital for a while, You may want to PM some of the Psychology majors from the man power thread.
I think railxp posted some really quality advice...
I would recommend maybe waiting a few days before attempting to hospitalize her. Firstly because it can help show her that you really are there for her, and your not just trying to unload her. Secondly because those places can only help her as much as she's willing to be helped. A lot of people get stuck like this because they didn't think they needed help in the first place...
I'm not necessarily saying these are the case, but the brain thinks in terrible ways when it's down like that. +1 to what Railpx said though GL
100% she needs professional help. Any hospital should have a psych ward. Get her to one. ON THE DAY SHE ARRIVES. Continue to support her and check up on her after she's admitted, especially if she's admitted forcibly.
It seems like you are the last strand of hope she's clinging onto in this world. She may be wanting you to stop her from doing it, to see if someone cares enough about her to do so. Don't be afraid to speak up for her or decide things for her, but also don't dismiss what she says. Listen to what she tells you and what she may not be telling you. There will be resistance and probably some hate thrown your way, but don't ever leave her alone. I wish you luck in keeping your friend alive.
edit: after reading some responses - ok i guess you have to make a judgment call depending on how serious it is to decide on whether to go to the hospital or not. However, I'd personally just go with the safer route and stay with her AT the hospital, since you're not professionally trained to make these judgments. If they say you're not allowed to stay or some dumb bullshit like that, you have to insist on staying for you're friend's sake.
Firstly get her to a hospital asap. With threats of suicide they will be required to keep her and help her. Nobody on this site is in any position to give any kind of real advice about suicide. Also your friend needs to learn there is my to life than big houses and money. I mean come on, seriously? She got herself in debt and should realize she did it to herself. Live and learn. She also committed crimes in doing so. How can anyone feel sorry for her?
Also usually the people that kill themselves dont talk about it all day every day. The ones that want attention are usually the ones crazy enough to put the blame and burden on someone/something else. The people who really need to be watched out for are the quite ones. They keep it to themselves until they are dead
I would still get her to a hospital asap just to be safe.
yo bro first of all, im really glad that you posted this forum. i believe that teamliquid members are always willing to help, even if it is not about starcraft
i had a female friend also who was going through severe depression and was on the suicide path. you gotta tell her that life always has ups and downs. i think that what she needs, (well at least what my female friend needed) was someone to talk to, someone to whom she coudl release all her anger and thoughts to. basically, someone who she could confide in and someone who she could trust. when she gets to release all these feelings, she will feel better for sure. but its up to u to make sure you are always there for her and that life is something to not just give up on. its so precious
On November 14 2009 15:13 Fixed wrote: Nobody on this site is in any position to give any kind of real advice about suicide.
And then this (demonstrating you have no experience on the topic):
Also your friend needs to learn there is my to life than big houses and money. I mean come on, seriously? She got herself in debt and should realize she did it to herself. Live and learn. She also committed crimes in doing so. How can anyone feel sorry for her?
...is counter productive. I don't think you even realize what someone like that is going through, and bringing up the things you mention would drive her further to suicide.
Is there anyway you can throw out the drugs she's using since it's not working and could be affecting mental state?
The advices here are very sound, I dunno why some are fucking skeptical
Ohhh someone cleared it out for me:
On November 14 2009 14:55 Mortality wrote: Something important to note about anti-depressants: they can actually make your depression worse under certain biological conditions. You need to get her to a doctor ASAP. Be there for her and help her through this mess.
Also your friend needs to learn there is my to life than big houses and money. I mean come on, seriously? She got herself in debt and should realize she did it to herself. Live and learn. She also committed crimes in doing so. How can anyone feel sorry for her?
...is counter productive. I don't think you even realize what someone like that is going through, and bringing up the things you mention would drive her further to suicide.
Dude clearly i would never tell that to a person that shows signs of wanting to kill herself. Seriously? I'm just saying she put herself in the position she is in now. And after she hopefully gets through this situation, and has been treated she will learn that there is more to life than the stuff that the OP mentioned she was depressed over. First and foremost she needs to be treated by a professional....which i dont think could be done over the interwebs even if TL had a qualified person.
edit: and with such a serious topic of suicide i really think the OP should get her to a hospital asap instead of asking starcraft people for help. This isnt a how do i stop 5 hatch hydra...this is suicide
Just talk to her for an hour to really dig deep into all her problems, also make her feel comfortable and that you are really interested / concerned for her life. tell her that it would be easier to help solve her problems talking to a doctor since they are train to handle those problems really think that is important that you repeat that you are concerned and that you will always be there for her no matter what. it will give her a sense that she will never be alone and believe it or not will take away a lot of stress off her.
On November 14 2009 15:43 Fixed wrote: Dude clearly i would never tell that to a person that shows signs of wanting to kill herself. Seriously?
Yeah, but why even say that in the thread?
which i dont think could be done over the interwebs even if TL had a qualified person.
While I agree with that, your original statement was:
"Nobody on this site is in any position to give any kind of real advice about suicide."
Which is going to be pretty far from the truth IMO, I'm sure there are plenty of people here with personal experience who can give recommendations/suggestions to the OP. That's all he's looking for.
On November 14 2009 15:44 ilj.psa wrote: Just talk to her for an hour to really dig deep into all her problems, also make her feel comfortable and that you are really interested / concerned for her life. tell her that it would be easier to help solve her problems talking to a doctor since they are train to handle those problems really think that is important that you repeat that you are concerned and that you will always be there for her no matter what. it will give her a sense that she will never be alone and believe it or not will take away a lot of stress off her.
I like this advice...seems like it would less stressful than immediately hauling her to an institution against her will.
On November 14 2009 15:13 Fixed wrote: Also usually the people that kill themselves dont talk about it all day every day... The people who really need to be watched out for are the quite ones. They keep it to themselves until they are dead
A common misconception; >3/4 of people who commit suicide confide in someone beforehand.
Not sure if it's been overlooked or not, but does she not have any close living relatives, maybe her parents? Really not an expert on this by any means, but perhaps notifying them and getting them involved might increase her sense of responsibility and connectedness. Also, they probably deserve to know...Getting professional help sooner rather than later as almost everyone is suggesting is likely a very good idea.
If the situation is prolonged, it'll likely take some sort of toll on you as well if it hasn't already, so try to stay alert and optimistic. Keep your chin up, and hopefully you can turn her around for the better. Good luck~
confide? yes maybe. They usually drop suttle hints. Talk about it non stop like the OPs friend? i doubt it. Either way I hope she gets professional help.
I was ina somewhat siimilar situation once and tried asking alot of people for advice when I just couldn't think of anything more to say. I was surprised to find that most people felt I shouldn't let myself get involved; I even tried calling one of these hotlines and asking them what I should say to her, but they also seemed more concerned with myself becoming depressed about the situation.
In retrospect, I think the best thing you can do in such a situation is try to be there and provide constant reassurance that there are things worth being around for; perhaps even specific small things to stall for time rather than trying to change her entire viewpoint by going for abstract reasons why suicide should never be contemplated.
Trying to involve other friends, family, or professionals is also helpful whenever possible.
Lastly, it is important to remember that there is only so much you can do, and you should focus on doing everything within your power to help rather than the concrete results which may be out of your control.
Oh and if it comes down to really talking to her at the hospital, do make physical contact i.e. hold her hand while you talk. I keep on emphasizing the concept of belonging to this world and holding someone's hand is like #1, I think. (That's what they told me when I volunteered at a hospitalized senior care home)
I'm not sure if artofmagic's video is directly relevant to the OP, but it really is inspirational, and I enjoyed it very much. + Show Spoiler +
The last bit was so sad T_T I actually felt tears gushing to my eyes.
well what can you do. Life is horrible and you're not gonna fool a person in a state like this with cliche life is worth living crap.
All you can do really is assure her that you will be there for her to see her through this.
Also you need to remind her that there is a shade of gray between being happy and dying. Now she doesnt have anything to lose, now she is free. She can do anything she wants. Make a porn movie. Rob a bank. Up and move to europe, asia, wherever.
But what do i know. What do we know. We don't even know what state she is in. Maybe at this point it's no longer despair but panic.
I dont know the whole picture, but make sure of 2 things
1 - Make sure to make the point that suiciding to make others feel bad is pointless, and eventually you will be forgotten, much better to live your life and find people who care about you.
2 - Show you are one of those people and that her absence in such a way will make you feel more than just bad, try to make her understand that quitting life wont make her quit the misery of her condition, and that only by persisting in her current situation things will get better, and things WILL get better, life is not static, and its mathematically impossible that better days wont come.
Ive seen tons of cases like these, and in 99% of them things get better when the person doesnt quit life.
From experience the best thing to do is to be there for her and to never try to understand what she is going through. Trust me, the worst you can say to someone in that mindset is that what they are going through isn't that bad and that you know how they feel. Instead just to be there for them and treat their problems as something very serious. Also subtly imply that they should seek professional help for their problems but depending on the person the intensity of the persuassion is purely situational.
okay that was a ruder comment than mine spt.worked.....WTF ban!
How long has she been on benzo's? I am sure if she is receiving valium she is probably also inducing other benzos or maybe other ugly drugs that might be interfering with her judgement along with her moral thoughts. Gosh this is bad. Get her off the drugs asap if she is dependent on them.
This thread is like ban bait for idiots who like to look tough on the internet. @OP I've had a female friend once who wanted to commit suicide, the issues she had were definitely not as distressing as your friends, but I let her stay at my place for a while till she felt she could get her life back on track. This wasnt long mind you just 1 week or so. Dont know if this helps, but generally just always be there showing that you care, and that you'd be severely pissed if she gave up and killed herself
Weed, that'll make her feel better and fall asleep.
All jokes aside, definitely keep an eye on her. Maybe you should call the suicide hotline and ask them for some technique you can use on her so she doesnt feel like your forcing her to call the hotline or dragging her to the hospital.
Lack of sleep is actually a serious problem. Not sleeping enough can make you do shit that you really don't want to. You know how good you feel after a good nights sleep? It actually makes a huge difference. It doesn't sound like much but I know sleep deprivation can make you want to kill people or kill yourself if you're not completely stable to begin with (I took a psychology class on sleep deprivation). Do your best to get her to sleep more.. tell her to write down what problems she has and what solution she can do about them (nothing is unsolvable). This helps a ton and will relieve a lot of stress letting her sleep without waking up in a panic about her situation. Keeping a regular routine will help and adds purpose to your life. And companionship will help a lot, so please stay by her side.
If she is able to meet with a psychiatrist, she should consider either changing medication or getting off the medication completely. It sounds like her old doctor gave her the wrong type of medication, and it is hindering her instead of helping.
The good news is that there's a clear cause for her feeling suicidal. I think you need to convince her that life does not end with her debts and house going under. Easier said than done, yes, but make her see a psychiatrist and possibly go to a psych ward. And be understanding and supportive. Pretty much, be there for her. The bad news is that when the cause is very powerful, then, I think, they're the most likely to do it. But as long as the cause is clear, there's a way to fix things. The ones who are depressed without any particular reason, however, are the ones that will jump down a bridge after a while. And sometimes, I'm afraid, suicide is a solution. (But you better not try.)
I just want to go in a slightly different line, as I don't really feel I can add to what has been said by everyone else.
What exactly has she done wrong legally? You may be surprised how much you can do to help that situation - legal systems are usually quite understanding, especially for someone in your friends position. Im only well informed on australian law (LLB, LLM), but I am sure someone here could offer some more accurate advice as to her position. Otherwise hit me up, ill help where I can.
you could also check her meds. you say they're not working, but there's a lot of different classes of antidepressants. if her psychiatrists are scrupulous (which they often aren't) they would work to prescribe her the right mix of meds. However, they don't always work and you may have to change the medications to a different class. Something you might try which worked very well for me (don't go on this recommendation alone) is something called wellbutrin in the dopamine reuptake inhibitor class. dopamine is the chemical that makes you feel good about yourself and is the brain's natural "reward" system
Edit: I should clarifiy. Get her to talk to her psychiatrist about switching medication. Don't try to switch the medication yourself. Actually, the medication can only be obtained by prescription, but if the psychiatrist gives the impression that they're only talking to her cause they're getting paid to talk to her, forget that scumbag and find a new one.
also, several people have mentioned it, but in addition to this she needs some reason to keep on living and to not feel so hopeless. therapy is a bit risky, especially since it can cost a crapton of money and a lot of people don't even benefit off therapy. she needs an outlet. for me, it was music, both playing and listening to it, and it may at least be a partial outlet for most people. but most importantly have her understand that she's loved and would be very sorely missed by people in this world.
This is a complicated subject. Trying to convince someone else that life is worth living is a slippery slope. The best advice I can give, having suicidal siblings, is to let them know you're there for them, that they are priority #1. But you can't know what's really going on in their head, so I wouldn't tell them what to live for.
Wow, a lot of decent advice in this thread, and a shitload of crap advice as well
- Do NOT fuck with her medication. Seriously, you are not a doctor, you have no idea what you are doing, you have no idea what the different types of medications are and exactly what they are doing to her.
- Do NOT betray her trust. If you run off to her parents or something, you will ruin her. You will lose any trust and you will be unable to do anything to help her.
- Do NOT tell her that it is her fault that she got in this position and needs to man up etc. We are way past this being effective advice, this will be detrimental to her
- Trying to cheer her up and seeing that life is worth it is very unlikely to do fuck all. We are past this stage, she is in a depression is not able to look at things the same way
- Do NOT leave her alone for long periods of time. Most people who are depressed and are considering suicide are feeling very very lonely. If she has someone with her, you can stave off these feelings for a short time
- Talk to her about it but do NOT interrogate. Try to find out her plan, and try to get her to talk to suicide help lines and stuff
- Get help. Talk to suicide hotlines, go on websites and educate yourself as much as possible
- Do NOT let her drink or take drugs
- Being female, she will statistically choose a drug overdose (sleeping pills, pain drugs etc). So be aware
I suggested going to her parents, and I can't see it as being so apocalyptic as that. They are her parents, after all. Regardless of trust, she seems to need help, and that help might be in the form of knowing her parents can support her. Parents are also capable of being discrete, and the trust may not be broken at all.
At first I thought that this would be a thread about a moody teenage friend, but she actually has substantial (financial) problems. I was reading that suicides have shot up during the economic downturn, and I mention this because I expect that there are debt support groups out there who can be much more helpful and supportive than the average friend could ever be. Talking to real people have handled her problems will make it much more manageable.
I mean, you can be nice and supply emotional reinforcement, but in the end she'll end up being the one having to face all those problems by herself, just being nice is basically just propping her up and hoping she's strong enough to handle it by herself.
The best thing to do is get her in touch with a PROFESSIONAL. I can not stress this enough. Depression is extremely serious. Handle it like any medical problem and get her in the care of experts on the matter.
On November 14 2009 17:46 Descent wrote: I suggested going to her parents, and I can't see it as being so apocalyptic as that. They are her parents, after all. Regardless of trust, she seems to need help, and that help might be in the form of knowing her parents can support her. Parents are also capable of being discrete, and the trust may not be broken at all.
If she hasnt told her parents, she doesnt want her parents to know. If he tells her parents, all hes doing is ratting her out, betraying her trust. She'll be much less likely to tell him anything else.
She needs to talk to trained professionals, not her parents, who chances are wouldnt help.
I agree that she needs to talk to professionals, but any relatives have more of a right to know than anyone else, imo. If I had a child in a similar position, I would certainly want to know, and to help. And again, just because her relatives find out does not necessarily mean that her trust will be broken.
On November 14 2009 18:00 Descent wrote: I agree that she needs to talk to professionals, but any relatives have more of a right to know than anyone else, imo. If I had a child in a similar position, I would certainly want to know, and to help. And again, just because her relatives find out does not necessarily mean that her trust will be broken.
A right to know?
This isnt about the parents, this is about the girl. Im assuming shes over 18 and is an adult. The reason she hasnt told her parents is because she doesnt trust the parents. To go behind her back and tell the parents would be a stupid thing to do. For all we know the parents will do something stupid and make matters worse
You have a point and I agree, but at the same time, neither of us knows the situation that well, and I think that telling her relatives is a viable option. Whether or not it is depends on circumstances we don't know, but it's an option for consideration. I'm not suggesting it's better than getting her to professionals.
Edit: Typo. Edit 2: I'm not saying you're not right either. To be honest, I could probably have worded this in a better way, but I feel letting anyone who she might have close relations with might not be so bad. I can't say so definitively because again, I don't know the circumstances, but at the same time, I don't think it's something that should be thrown away so quickly. For all we know, this might not even be an option, if she has no close living relatives.
On November 14 2009 18:05 Descent wrote: You have a point and I agree, but at the same time, neither of us knows the situation that well, and I think that telling her relatives is a viable option. Whether or not it is depends on circumstances we don't know, but it's an option for consideration. I'm not suggesting it's better than getting her to professionals.
Edit: Typo.
I agree that neither of us know the situation well enough to make an accurate call. However if anyone is going to tell the parents, it should be her herself and definitely should be something the OP should talk about with the girl.
I disagree (with the first bit). If she's feeling ashamed for her current situation, and OP is able to communicate it in a calm and responsible manner to the concerned parties, they may be able to find a solution revolving around giving her support and letting her know that they don't blame her, etc. Again, very circumstantial, but it's a possibility. It may even be the best solution, for all we know. Whatever happens, I hope it turns out well.
Edit: Hahah, sorry for sounding so contentious. I mean, I disagree that it is necessarily best for her to discuss it with her relatives. She may not be in a position in which she is able to do that, while it may in fact give the best outcome.
First of all, I think asking us for advice is not the best option. You need professional help from doctor.
On November 14 2009 16:01 OpticalShot wrote: Oh and if it comes down to really talking to her at the hospital, do make physical contact i.e. hold her hand while you talk. I keep on emphasizing the concept of belonging to this world and holding someone's hand is like #1, I think. (That's what they told me when I volunteered at a hospitalized senior care home)
This. Give her a hug or two. It really should help at least a bit.
Im not saying that the parents knowing would necessarily be a bad thing either. The problem is that this is an issue of trust. Shes most likely only told 1 person what her plans are because the OP is the only person that she knows who she trusts with this information. It is extremely important that this trust is not betrayed, because if she feels that she cannot trust anyone, she will go ahead without anyone given the chance to stop her.
If the parents find out and try to talk to her about it. She might just downplay it and tell them there is nothing to worry about to avoid the situation of having to talk to them about it (what might be her biggest fear at the moment). The result of this is that she is still in the same situation and will no longer trust the OP, meaning he can no longer help.
Exactly. I was only concerned because it seemed to me that you were wholly rejecting the option of going to relatives in your earlier post. I apologize if it's my misunderstanding. I agree that it is indeed a sensitive option, but if it's a viable one, it should still be considered. We both hope that this will end well.
On November 14 2009 18:32 Descent wrote: Exactly. I was only concerned because it seemed to me that you were wholly rejecting the option of going to relatives in your earlier post. I apologize if it's my misunderstanding. I agree that it is indeed a sensitive option, but if it's a viable one, it should still be considered. We both hope that this will end well.
Edit: Removed a redundant phrase.
Sorry, didnt mean it that way. I think we both agree that its very situational as to whether or not the parents knowing would help. What I meant earlier is that if he goes and tells a doctor or therapist, she wont see it as a betrayal of trust However going behind her back and telling her parents will be much more likely to be seen that way.
it might be a betrayal of trust... but they probably know the girl pretty well since they ARE her relatives so they may be able to help. also any additional support and encouragement is good. of course this is highly situational and depends on her prior relationship with her parents, etc.
I personally think you should get as far away from her as possible as she doesn't sound like a particularly healthy person to be subjecting yourself to. There are people in the world who are entirely incapable of dealing with everyday stress and over the years it piles up and worsens their condition over time.
Seriously, maybe this kind of person isn't someone you want to have around bringing you down with them.
On November 14 2009 14:25 aRod wrote: Get her to a hospital ASAP. She needs to be involuntarily or voluntarily commited. Both of which are legal when someone is considering suicide.
Seriously dude. Don't be afraid to help her! You may and will probably save her life if you do this, but if you don't...
I know I've been in many many crappy positions in mine life, altho I'm still young but you can't choose what happens in your life. And if there wasn't for my friends I don't know what I would do, honestly. Really really hope you get her addmited or something, anything to help her get over it. She just needs time and she will get better just as it passes away, but she needs her friends to make it happen.
Really hopes she makes it thru, becouse after every rain there is sunshine. That and I hope she isn't too deep into depression but as I got from your OP I take it its very nasty and she would actually need professional help.
On November 14 2009 21:25 D10 wrote: On a side note, if she has deep legal problems, come to Brazil, tons of job, and we dont extradite anyone!
oh true, she could just move to another country, a cheap one. help her out with a ticket and enough money for like 4 months and she should be able to make it. sorry if this is the worst piece of advice. but running is better than...u know.
Tell her to see this through. Arguably there are no good reasons to commit suicide. But this one is quite different from people that are chronically depressed because of genetics and brain chemistry or for people who did something they can never accept.
If she is in such huge problems she can start a new life somewhere else. She committed fraud. Maybe she should do the jail time, if that's what is the punishment. Doesn't sound like she will get life in prison. She can come clean this way. Yeah it sucks.
Or she can flee Canada like someone suggested.
This is really a temporary problem. Things will become different for her in the future. It won't get worse. She may see no way out now, but one can pull through this and be perfectly happy.
And professionals are forced to secrecy. She can get mental help and tell them what she did without them betraying her. If they do betray her they would break their oath. Doesn't sound to me like those professionals would get into conflict with their conscience if they don't turn her in.
You need to do whatever you need to do to never feel guilty. Yeah, she doesn't sound like the kind of person that makes a good friend. But she needs help more than you need a good friend. So that doesn't matter.
No relative should betray their relative for fraud. I probably won't turn anyone in for any crime as long as I know there is no risk of it happening again. Otherwise, what's the point of being friends of family?
I'm not so sure rushing her to a hospital is the best bet, unless you believe it to be substance-related. I would get advice from an anonymous hotline on what they think you should try to do. If it's rational, emotional depression the odds are you can help her a lot more than a psychiatric ward can. Taking her to the hospital ruins any chance you have of helping her on your own. Taking her to a counselor or a cop does the same thing, as they are legally required to have her evaluated to be admitted if she seems suicidal. On top of all that, even if a hospital did help after a couple weeks, certainly the bill she gets afterward for ~$2500 a day won't.
I believe what she needs is someone she can trust, who actually cares about her and her life, not just about whether she lives or dies. She doesn't need a short-term distraction from her real-life problems; she needs to know that she'll overcome them, and that she has someone to support her the whole time, not just until she checks out. Betraying someone's trust and calling them in should be a last resort. From my experience, psychiatrists and psychiatric wards only really help children and adults with chemically/drug-related depression or short-term, irrational causes of the depression. Something legitimate and long term like massive debt, loss of a spouse/child, etc. should cause someone to be horribly depressed, so they need to know that there truly is a way out of their problem, even if it might take a while. Long term, realistic hope is what she needs.
I think making an agreement with her might be a good idea, in a way that keeps her trust of you. If she thinks it was a trap flying her in, she won't trust you. If you just 'thought about it and really wanted her to try something' for you before she goes through with it, she's more likely to be responsive. Perhaps an agreement that she spends so much time with you, or waits X number of months trying to work things out, without getting the law involved. Any advice on the drugs she's on should come from a professional, but only an anonymous one if you talk about suicide. Chemicals don't seem to be the cause of her depression, but they could be making it worse. Getting her some sleep and physically healthy enough to think clearly will make it a lot easier to show her that her life's not over.
The WORST thing you can do while talking to her is play devil's advocate. She doesn't need to hear that anything's her fault, even if it is. She doesn't need to hear that others have it worse than her, or you're belittling her problems. She doesn't need you to tell her any of her ideas are stupid, even if they are. She needs someone who understands that she's in a very tough situation, and that she has a friend open to listening to her, discussing and trying different things, and getting through her problems. Assuming acquiring vast wealth was not her absolute only goal in life and only reason for living, in the long run debt isn't going to stop her from getting the things that will really make her happy, be it a spouse, friends, a career, hobby, etc. It may make things difficult, but it will also make the rewards of achieving her goals even better.
...
And for what it's worth, 25% of your income is the maximum that creditors can collectively take from someone. In addition, I believe it may vary by state, but if you make payments on a debt every single month for 20 years, the debt is forgiven. They can't put you in jail for debt, so after the initial seizures of property, vehicles, and investment assets, life goes on with at worst 75% what you would have made. Edit: If she did break the law, and it wasn't hundreds of thousands of dollars she 'stole,' she probably won't get much jail time, if any, if they discover it. Trying to hide assets or further break the law through collections and seizures will make any sentence much more harsh as a repeat offender, and will also make her earlier crimes more likely to be noticed.
Edit: my advice was based on US laws, but I guess she may not be a US citizen, so take that in mind. Sorry I couldn't read the entire thread as I must leave, but having multiple instances of personal experience with such matters, I thought my experience might help, especially since my advice differs from what most people here suggest who haven't been involved in such matters.
On November 14 2009 21:45 Pandarus wrote: And professionals are forced to secrecy. She can get mental help and tell them what she did without them betraying her. If they do betray her they would break their oath. Doesn't sound to me like those professionals would get into conflict with their conscience if they don't turn her in.
NO NO NO! This is a common thing people misunderstand, and you need to know its limitations. While they are required to confidentiality in all other situations, if a professional believes a patient is an imminent threat to herself or anyone else, they are legally REQUIRED to have her evaluated to be admitted to a psychiatric hospital. So while they can't betray her in terms of discussing or testifying against her for her crimes, they MUST betray her and have her committed if she is suicidal.
Unless she can absolutely hide the fact that she is suicidal, the only professional help she can get is in a psychiatric ward.
If you honestly feel as though you need to impose your will upon her, then be with her, convince her of the joys of life, HELP HER solve these problems (if you really care as much as it seems like you do), and I mean possibly helping her out financially, etc. I know personally when I was suicidal, physical help is so much more reassuring than words. ANYBODY can fucking say, "No, don't go for it! It's not worth it!". As if the suicidal person has not already contemplated this. They need exposure to a new, higher level of support and help.
However, as being said suicidal person, it is your own body, your own life, and if you don't feel the need to be here anymore, IT IS YOUR DECISION. Self-sovereignty. And don't try to play the "she'll be much happier later!" card, because none of you have any fucking idea what her situation will be in a year, or five. Assumptions are so grossly related with suicide that it sickens me.
Oh, also to those saying "involuntarily commit her". LOL. That's all I can really say to that. As long as you feel you made a difference right?
On November 14 2009 22:46 Romance_us wrote: If you honestly feel as though you need to impose your will upon her, then be with her, convince her of the joys of life, HELP HER solve these problems (if you really care as much as it seems like you do), and I mean possibly helping her out financially, etc. I know personally when I was suicidal, physical help is so much more reassuring than words. ANYBODY can fucking say, "No, don't go for it! It's not worth it!". As if the suicidal person has not already contemplated this. They need exposure to a new, higher level of support and help.
However, as being said suicidal person, it is your own body, your own life, and if you don't feel the need to be here anymore, IT IS YOUR DECISION. Self-sovereignty. And don't try to play the "she'll be much happier later!" card, because none of you have any fucking idea what her situation will be in a year, or five. Assumptions are so grossly related with suicide that it sickens me.
Oh, also to those saying "involuntarily commit her". LOL. That's all I can really say to that. As long as you feel you made a difference right?
But really, what romance_us said. If you back up her financial problems with your own hard cash.. That's something far better than words. It might tip her in the right direction, and release a lot of the burden.
On November 14 2009 22:40 LonelyMargarita wrote: NO NO NO! This is a common thing people misunderstand, and you need to know its limitations. While they are required to confidentiality in all other situations, if a professional believes a patient is an imminent threat to herself or anyone else, they are legally REQUIRED to have her evaluated to be admitted to a psychiatric hospital.
Of course.
You are misunderstanding. If she tells she has difficulties because she can't fine bankruptcy because then they will discover tax fraud then they won't turn her in. At least, that's how it's supposed to be. Just as your lawyer won't turn you in.
This is an entirely different issue.
So while they can't betray her in terms of discussing or testifying against her for her crimes, they MUST betray her and have her committed if she is suicidal.
How is that betrayal?
It's stupid not to seek professional help if you are considering suicide just because then you know they will try to stop you from committing suicide. Especially considering this individual case. We don't have someone here who is physically unable to not be totally unhappy because of brain chemistry or other disabilities.
It's not like I proposed luring her into a trap to get her committed, which you can actually debate quite seriously. It's not like there aren't any cases where the person getting 'betrayed' won't be grateful later.
Not to mention many attempts at suicide fail. If she totally damages her internal organs with some medicine overdose, then they find her and lock her up for a while she will have to live with that for the rest of her life. And there are more extreme examples. Like people jumping off buildings where a bystander tries to catch and dies while the person jumping is in a wheel chair for the rest his/her life.
It's not nice losing everything financially, being in jail, being in a wheelchair and knowing you killed someone who tried to save you.
I haven't read the whole thread, I'm pretty sure you read some good and some bad advice (being ironic: watching an inspiring video by some professor? yeah, that'll keep her going). Here's mine:
Do not underestimate the complexity of her bad condition. Eg I don't think it will help to only pay off the debt - which does not mean it won't help at all. Depression can't be solved over night. It takes a lot of time and patience to overcome it.
Here's a list of things that MAY help:
- gather information go to the library, search the internet, talk to specialists (you don't have to tell her), maybe friends / family who have experienced similar things the more you'll know the more you and your friend will see that there is a solution.
- give her the feeling you're there for her (well not just give her the feeling...be there for her) be patient with her. If she doesn't want to talk, if she doesn't want to do anything accept that, it's part of the illness. Still try to activate her to do anything, to go outside to confront the world, maybe even do sports.
- she probably won't want to get help by her friends and family because she notices that you get affected by her illness as well. She'll feel even more guilty than she already does. Try to avoid to give her that feeling. Well, don't tread her like a puppet made of porcelaine either. It's best to find a good compromise between the two.
On November 14 2009 16:57 jfazz wrote: I just want to go in a slightly different line, as I don't really feel I can add to what has been said by everyone else.
What exactly has she done wrong legally? You may be surprised how much you can do to help that situation - legal systems are usually quite understanding, especially for someone in your friends position. Im only well informed on australian law (LLB, LLM), but I am sure someone here could offer some more accurate advice as to her position. Otherwise hit me up, ill help where I can.
She frauded a bunch of government paperwork (T4 / notice of assessments), basically how much you declared to the government. It's a criminal offense AFAIK.
She's mostly stressed that she will be pursued criminally when shit hits the fan and the banks / bankruptcy courts unravel the fact that she submitted fraudulent paperwork in order to finance / refinance her properties.
I personally think the best way to tackle this is to find a path through the whole legal mess and avoid criminal charges if possible. But this is over my head.
I'm sure she's extremely paranoid which is normal, but to what extent her paranoias are real, I have no idea.
I won't try say anything about any of the details of her case as others have contributed since I don't think I have any explicit knowledge in the legal areas/psychological areas heck even life areas. By saying this I don't demean what others have said, by all means the complete opposite considering the fact that they had at least offered some sort of advice where as im sitting here poker faced :|.
So the best I can say is OP, good luck, work hard. That's te best I could do, I figured I should at least post something. And here is a picture of something which I am mezmerised by everyday.
The only little advice I can give that have helped myself is to find some little thing that you have to do before you you die. Like the release of sc2 as an most likely irrelevant example in her case. There must be something that you can make her look forward too and while she is waiting for it you can help her sort things out. When the event (or whatever she has been waiting for) comes things might be going better ect.
On November 15 2009 00:53 thedeadhaji wrote: ugh i wish I had something to offer, but I'm not even going to pretend I do .
I wish you both the best. It's all I can do
Same. I've only had friends who went emo-style a few times, talking about suicide but never really being serious about it (aka attention whoring), and the only one who really WAS serious did get professional help from psychiatrists and is now completely fine and off the pills.
I have no idea how to really handle a situation like this, so I'll just wish you the best of luck. Suicide is among the worst options there is, no matter how attractive it might look for the moment.
you can try to help her sleep by holding her. I know this sound odd and may seem to be taking advantage of the situation, but if you are the only person she trust, then you can provide some physical comfort. So by holding her, she feels more protected/secure and may actually be able to let her mind go a bit. It is impossible to convince anyone who is not ready, so in her case, a lack of sleep which drives her brain into using the emotional side instead of being logical.
On November 14 2009 14:44 YPang wrote: If she suddenly feels well, don't take it as a sign of relief because she might of thought of a clever suicide technique, and suddenly not worried anymore... Be cautious.
Also be mindful of your own safety when that happens....
Actually if she's asking for someone to help her with her suicide plan, it might mean that she's not very certain or that she thinks its some kind of suicide pact. Either way be careful and all the best of luck to you and yr friend.
Call a hotline and ignore any advice you get in this thread. We're not experts and we don't know what we're talking about anymore than you do.
For instance, all this "be there for her" "let her know you'll always be around" "be her rock to lean on" ... That's what lovers are for, and even then it's not the greatest idea. She has to find the answer in herself, not in someone else or she'll develop a nasty dependency issue. You're only around so much, what happens when you have to go somewhere, she's alone and miserable and she thinks she has to call to make things better? Unless you can make her associate being around you with being happy and something worth living for, you're not doing her any favours. You're just letting her brood.
For real, call the help line yourself. They completely expect people with friends who are in trouble to call, and they'll send you to the right people and give you the most psychologically current advice.
On November 15 2009 01:23 JFKWT wrote: Actually if she's asking for someone to help her with her suicide plan, it might mean that she's not very certain or that she thinks its some kind of suicide pact. Either way be careful and all the best of luck to you and yr friend.
It means she's too scared to do it herself. When I think of suicide I worry about if I fail and just end up living but injuring myself so badly I can't try again, or attracting too much attention from people who would want to stop me if I made a scene with some kind of poison. There's just aren't any guarantees in suicide, and guarantees is what a suicidal person is looking for, and why they're thinking about death. I guess I'm transposing my own experience onto her, and I can't say for sure. I certainly wouldn't ask anyone to commit euthanasia and risk going to jail their whole life, or even just having it on their conscience. That's so selfish it's seems she is either so consumed in herself she isn't thinking very far ahead, or she doesn't really care about you and she is using you because she's desperate. All the drugs she's on probably can't be helping her judgment.
Either way, you should call a help line. You shouldn't turn yourself into this tragic hero who she just complains to for hours a day. It's bad for both of you. People want to be listened to, but at some point they need to have some fun and be happy, and as their friend you need to make them realise that. Maybe that's not as intuitive as mimicking a dramatic TV show you once saw, but it's the truth. Sadness begets sadness.
I don't know what I can say that's already been said. I don't think I know enough to comment on what she should do, but can't she just declare bankruptcy and face the criminal offenses? Like someone earlier said, jail is definitely not the end of life. If anything, she would get proper psychiatry treatment and maybe it would be one of those small offense things so she would get one of those nicer penetentiaries with internet access. I guess starting over would be harder, but it certainly beats the lifestyle she's living now...
Your friend does have a few legal options to resolve her T4 goverment tax return problems.
She can look into the volunteer disclosure program(VDP) which allows you to volunteer correct information when you previously lied on your tax return. If this route is taken she must be willing to pay any taxes that will be owing with applicable interest and penalties.
You may ask why do that when you'll have to pay. The main reason is that if you do they will then not charge you criminally for fraud and just accept your correct information and expect payment. If there is a large amount owing and she is unable to pay, she may be able to work some payment plan with the CRA(government). You'd be surprised how much they are willing to work with you.
to do this right she should talk to an accountant or lawyer who can fill out and send in the application in on her behalf so there is no chance of the CRA finding out who she is before a deal is made.
if there is no chance of her having the funds to pay due to the other debts, she should be considering bankruptcy. the best route would be to go under the VDP and then claim bankruptcy so that tax debt will be wiped clear along with her other debts.
One thing you should be aware of is that student debt will survive the bankruptcy process so if her other debts are student debts nothing will help there expect hard work.
I hope she is willing to stick through this and live a long fulfilling life, b/c most ppl at some point have lost all hope and its only at our worst moment that we realize what we are made of and who our true friends are.
On November 15 2009 02:32 Tower82 wrote: Your friend does have a few legal options to resolve her T4 goverment tax return problems.
She can look into the volunteer disclosure program(VDP) which allows you to volunteer correct information when you previously lied on your tax return. If this route is taken she must be willing to pay any taxes that will be owing with applicable interest and penalties.
You may ask why do that when you'll have to pay. The main reason is that if you do they will then not charge you criminally for fraud and just accept your correct information and expect payment. If there is a large amount owing and she is unable to pay, she may be able to work some payment plan with the CRA(government). You'd be surprised how much they are willing to work with you.
to do this right she should talk to an accountant or lawyer who can fill out and send in the application in on her behalf so there is no chance of the CRA finding out who she is before a deal is made.
if there is no chance of her having the funds to pay due to the other debts, she should be considering bankruptcy. the best route would be to go under the VDP and then claim bankruptcy so that tax debt will be wiped clear along with her other debts.
One thing you should be aware of is that student debt will survive the bankruptcy process so if her other debts are student debts nothing will help there expect hard work.
I hope she is willing to stick through this and live a long fulfilling life, b/c most ppl at some point have lost all hope and its only at our worst moment that we realize what we are made of and who our true friends are.
On November 15 2009 02:32 Tower82 wrote: Your friend does have a few legal options to resolve her T4 goverment tax return problems.
She can look into the volunteer disclosure program(VDP) which allows you to volunteer correct information when you previously lied on your tax return. If this route is taken she must be willing to pay any taxes that will be owing with applicable interest and penalties.
You may ask why do that when you'll have to pay. The main reason is that if you do they will then not charge you criminally for fraud and just accept your correct information and expect payment. If there is a large amount owing and she is unable to pay, she may be able to work some payment plan with the CRA(government). You'd be surprised how much they are willing to work with you.
to do this right she should talk to an accountant or lawyer who can fill out and send in the application in on her behalf so there is no chance of the CRA finding out who she is before a deal is made.
if there is no chance of her having the funds to pay due to the other debts, she should be considering bankruptcy. the best route would be to go under the VDP and then claim bankruptcy so that tax debt will be wiped clear along with her other debts.
One thing you should be aware of is that student debt will survive the bankruptcy process so if her other debts are student debts nothing will help there expect hard work.
I hope she is willing to stick through this and live a long fulfilling life, b/c most ppl at some point have lost all hope and its only at our worst moment that we realize what we are made of and who our true friends are.
I have never had something motivate me to join here yet, but this has done it, you seem to be intelligent and a dependable guy, so maybe all you need is some insight. As none of us can directly help her, (There is no way someone in deep depression will just listen to a whole bunch of advice given by strangers.) all we can really do is help you help her. I know this isn't much, and it might not help at all, but maybe this might help, even if just by one iota. I do apologize if I'm out of line.
If you really want to help her, then I personally advise you try to do everything possible to manage her affairs and work out the path for her to get out of the problems. Show her how it can be achieved and how easy it is. I get the feeling that she might be overwhelmed by the problems and can't see a way out. Follow the guy a few posts up's advice. I don't know if you guys have a citizens advice bureau but you can probably call your DA anonymously and ask for some advice on the issue too.
If I were you, and I really cared, I would put aside an hour each day to actually look at her problems and work on solutions.
What the fuck are you doing in posting this on an internet forum?
A handful of internet sympathy and an armchair diagnosis won't do anything to keep your friend from killing herself. Act, and act properly. If your friend has directly asked you to assist in her suicide and the only thing you've done (however noble the intentions) is post on teamliquid, then you are a shitty friend. I just hope that she doesn't "Heath Ledger" herself while you are contemplating the following advice:
On November 14 2009 23:06 ruffe wrote: 1.help her with ur money if u r rich 2.try to find a professional negotiator to convince her not to do it.
If she didn't do that and you are drumming up drama, then you are just an asshole for masking a thread with false seriousness and urgency.
When shit like this ends up on an internet forum it is impossible to take seriously. Call a fucking doctor.
Why should anyone believe you when you claim you want 'serious' help all the while cracking Heath Ledger jokes. Anyone who makes a joke in poor taste has been banned, and the OP is making OD jokes.
And no dude, you don't have to do anything. Maybe her life is completely fucked up without remedy well too bad. Don't get mixed up in it.
Yes, that takes being complete asshole (for some people at least) but if the alternative is being a complete retard by aiding her suicide which is a crime, then I think the choice is a simple one.
Don't think you can solve her problems, it will only end up in you losing too much while she will still go down the same way, probably even more reassured to stop causing you more trouble. If you can't change her mind with pure reasoning, then there's nothing more you are obliged to.
On November 15 2009 03:36 keV. wrote: What the fuck are you doing in posting this on an internet forum?
A handful of internet sympathy and an armchair diagnosis won't do anything to keep your friend from killing herself. Act, and act properly.
When shit like this ends up on an internet forum it is impossible to take seriously. Call a fucking doctor. Jesus.
Why should anyone believe you when you claim you want 'serious' help all the while cracking Heath Ledger jokes. Anyone who makes a joke in poor taste has been banned, and the OP is making OD jokes.
"suicide is the wrong answer to a temporary problem"
> <;; try and convince her that death IS NOT the only option i clearly cant imagine her situation but try and convince her that there is a light at the end of the tunnel
On November 15 2009 03:36 keV. wrote: What the fuck are you doing in posting this on an internet forum?
A handful of internet sympathy and an armchair diagnosis won't do anything to keep your friend from killing herself. Act, and act properly.
When shit like this ends up on an internet forum it is impossible to take seriously. Call a fucking doctor. Jesus.
Why should anyone believe you when you claim you want 'serious' help all the while cracking Heath Ledger jokes. Anyone who makes a joke in poor taste has been banned, and the OP is making OD jokes.
This thread is a joke.
So he is looking for sympathy, shoot him.
People looking for sympathy on the internet deserve the comments "let her do it..." etc.
On November 15 2009 02:32 Tower82 wrote: Your friend does have a few legal options to resolve her T4 goverment tax return problems.
She can look into the volunteer disclosure program(VDP) which allows you to volunteer correct information when you previously lied on your tax return. If this route is taken she must be willing to pay any taxes that will be owing with applicable interest and penalties.
You may ask why do that when you'll have to pay. The main reason is that if you do they will then not charge you criminally for fraud and just accept your correct information and expect payment. If there is a large amount owing and she is unable to pay, she may be able to work some payment plan with the CRA(government). You'd be surprised how much they are willing to work with you.
to do this right she should talk to an accountant or lawyer who can fill out and send in the application in on her behalf so there is no chance of the CRA finding out who she is before a deal is made.
if there is no chance of her having the funds to pay due to the other debts, she should be considering bankruptcy. the best route would be to go under the VDP and then claim bankruptcy so that tax debt will be wiped clear along with her other debts.
One thing you should be aware of is that student debt will survive the bankruptcy process so if her other debts are student debts nothing will help there expect hard work.
I hope she is willing to stick through this and live a long fulfilling life, b/c most ppl at some point have lost all hope and its only at our worst moment that we realize what we are made of and who our true friends are.
Thanks for the advice.
She frauded her notice of assessments. Her actual notice of assessments claim she declared only ~20K a year in income.
The one she made up to show to the bank claimed she made 250 000$.
Should she still go ahead and with the VDP, try and actually report 250 000$, find out how much she owes the government in taxes, and then file bankruptcy?
Convince her to run away and start a new life? Just drop her entire life and start anew. That's kind of like suicide - severing all her connections to her current life.
Be really careful of who you get to help her though. If you really care about your friend you should not just submit her to any agent of authority. You just might be throwing her into the hell that she is really afraid of.
On November 15 2009 04:05 Tien wrote: Thanks for the advice.
She frauded her notice of assessments. Her actual notice of assessments claim she declared only ~20K a year in income.
The one she made up to show to the bank claimed she made 250 000$.
Should she still go ahead and with the VDP, try and actually report 250 000$, find out how much she owes the government in taxes, and then file bankruptcy?
Whoa lie again to cover up the first lie? Haha. I wouldn't ever condone that.
On November 15 2009 03:36 keV. wrote: What the fuck are you doing in posting this on an internet forum?
A handful of internet sympathy and an armchair diagnosis won't do anything to keep your friend from killing herself. Act, and act properly.
When shit like this ends up on an internet forum it is impossible to take seriously. Call a fucking doctor. Jesus.
Why should anyone believe you when you claim you want 'serious' help all the while cracking Heath Ledger jokes. Anyone who makes a joke in poor taste has been banned, and the OP is making OD jokes.
This thread is a joke.
So he is looking for sympathy, shoot him.
People looking for sympathy on the internet deserve the comments "let her do it..." etc.
Well morally he isn't forced to do much more than that. Logically he shouldn't get involved. Legally he can't be an accomplice.
If he is looking for a magical way to turn the mind of a selfish asshole a whole 180° then he is an idiot.
On November 14 2009 14:30 OpticalShot wrote: I'm no psychological specialist, but I think your friend needs to: 1) accept the fact (she should have already, actually) that theres nobody else to blame except herself for the situation she's in. The more people she can blame her misery to, the more hatred grows and the farther away from the world she gets. 2) find a reason to live. This is hard - it could be love (probably the best motive and the hardest to "make one up"), some sort of a legacy, hobbies (strong ones), personal goals, power and fame, whatever.
I think it'll be best of you to simply spend time with her and keep her feel like she's part of the world. Often suicides occur because the person feels alone, isolated, unloved and uncared. She needs to know that, many times and often, and make sure she gets it. This is different from trying to convince her it's not so bad because if a person's contemplating suicide, it's very likely that her only voice of reason is her own and nobody else's. That's why it's important to constantly show she's not alone - her voice of reason might start listening to yours, and others.
When people actually want to die, they just off themselves without much delay.
But this kind of shit happened to me before. My old best friend would say she was going to commit suicide quite often. She had plans and everything, was into self-harm, etc.
Anyway, the truth is, that dumb bitch just wanted attention. You don't tell people you're going to commit suicide without obviously wanting someone to swoop down and save you like some kind of bad fantasy. I "saved" her a few times, but it was obvious she was never going to do it! All her plans had loopholes, or would fail, because she always gave herself room to wiggle out of the situation, because she wasn't interested in actually dying, she just wanted people to actually care.
And dude, if a girl actually wants you to help her, IT'S A FUCKING CRY FOR ATTENTION. She doesn't want to die. She just wants to watch you squirm because she's desperate for someone to show they care about her. She's probably gotten way more attention from you now that she's "suicidal" right? I know you think she's your friend, but to do this, she's a horrible friend who just wants to make other people miserable to boost her esteem briefly. And now you're fucked because if she ever had the resolve to just get it over with, you'd think oh I could have prevented this, and her legacy to the would would've been, "You should have showered me with love when you had the chance." Fuck that shit, and fuck this girl. Desperate for love, desperate to spread her misery. Don't be a slave to her fabricated emotions.
1. First and foremost, get her to calm down and take a long sleep for once. She's not gonna get any better if she's not thinking straight. Also, make sure she eats a healthy diet. Both sleep and diet have a BIG influence on ones ability to think.
You might even want to do this for a few days before giving her the bad news about her problems. The goal is to show her the benefits of sleeping and eating well so that she'll learn to take care of herself. Take on one thing at a time.
2. When you decide what she should do, don't just tell her what to do: talk her through the logical mental steps you took to reach the solution. Sounds like she needs help in that area and this is the way to start teaching her to solve her own problems.
imo she will ultimately have to come clean and take responsibility for everything she's done. She'll have to learn to live one day at a time. She'll have to learn to stop lamenting her situation and just live through it. She'll have to learn to take pleasure in simple, everyday things.
On November 15 2009 05:01 MountainDewJunkie wrote: When people actually want to die, they just off themselves without much delay.
But this kind of shit happened to me before. My old best friend would say she was going to commit suicide quite often. She had plans and everything, was into self-harm, etc.
Anyway, the truth is, that dumb bitch just wanted attention. You don't tell people you're going to commit suicide without obviously wanting someone to swoop down and save you like some kind of bad fantasy. I "saved" her a few times, but it was obvious she was never going to do it! All her plans had loopholes, or would fail, because she always gave herself room to wiggle out of the situation, because she wasn't interested in actually dying, she just wanted people to actually care.
And dude, if a girl actually wants you to help her, IT'S A FUCKING CRY FOR ATTENTION. She doesn't want to die. She just wants to watch you squirm because she's desperate for someone to show they care about her. She's probably gotten way more attention from you now that she's "suicidal" right? I know you think she's your friend, but to do this, she's a horrible friend who just wants to make other people miserable to boost her esteem briefly. And now you're fucked because if she ever had the resolve to just get it over with, you'd think oh I could have prevented this, and her legacy to the would would've been, "You should have showered me with love when you had the chance." Fuck that shit, and fuck this girl. Desperate for love, desperate to spread her misery. Don't be a slave to her fabricated emotions.
-Being independently decisive and/or impulsive are not necessary conditions for being suicidal. People who are contemplative and seek the opinions of others can be suicidal too and they can go about it in a way that fits their normal pattern of decision-making.
-People who want emotional attention are victims of a different psychological problem. You give no good reason for condemning them other than the implication that you don't know how to help.
On November 15 2009 04:00 DreaM)XeRO wrote: "suicide is the wrong answer to a temporary problem"
> <;; try and convince her that death IS NOT the only option i clearly cant imagine her situation but try and convince her that there is a light at the end of the tunnel
not the "ONLY?" option? its NOT an option, period.
On November 15 2009 05:01 MountainDewJunkie wrote: When people actually want to die, they just off themselves without much delay.
But this kind of shit happened to me before. My old best friend would say she was going to commit suicide quite often. She had plans and everything, was into self-harm, etc.
Anyway, the truth is, that dumb bitch just wanted attention. You don't tell people you're going to commit suicide without obviously wanting someone to swoop down and save you like some kind of bad fantasy. I "saved" her a few times, but it was obvious she was never going to do it! All her plans had loopholes, or would fail, because she always gave herself room to wiggle out of the situation, because she wasn't interested in actually dying, she just wanted people to actually care.
And dude, if a girl actually wants you to help her, IT'S A FUCKING CRY FOR ATTENTION. She doesn't want to die. She just wants to watch you squirm because she's desperate for someone to show they care about her. She's probably gotten way more attention from you now that she's "suicidal" right? I know you think she's your friend, but to do this, she's a horrible friend who just wants to make other people miserable to boost her esteem briefly. And now you're fucked because if she ever had the resolve to just get it over with, you'd think oh I could have prevented this, and her legacy to the would would've been, "You should have showered me with love when you had the chance." Fuck that shit, and fuck this girl. Desperate for love, desperate to spread her misery. Don't be a slave to her fabricated emotions.
Having been suicidal before (and very serious about it), I'd just like to say that you know absolutely nothing and should not spread around your misinformed opinions to people who actually need help. I'd say fuck you, instead of the girl.
EDIT: I missed that nony had addressed this already.
On November 15 2009 05:13 Manit0u wrote: Suicide is for cowards.
Tell her that.
Also, tell her that no amount of debt/houses lost/blahblahblah is worth losing your life.
End of story on my part.
Telling a suicidal person that they are a coward makes them more suicidal. Telling them your opinion of the worth of their life is also ineffective.
On November 15 2009 03:36 keV. wrote: What the fuck are you doing in posting this on an internet forum?
A handful of internet sympathy and an armchair diagnosis won't do anything to keep your friend from killing herself. Act, and act properly.
When shit like this ends up on an internet forum it is impossible to take seriously. Call a fucking doctor. Jesus.
Why should anyone believe you when you claim you want 'serious' help all the while cracking Heath Ledger jokes. Anyone who makes a joke in poor taste has been banned, and the OP is making OD jokes.
This thread is a joke.
So he is looking for sympathy, shoot him.
People looking for sympathy on the internet deserve the comments "let her do it..." etc.
"Let her do it" is actually the vast lesser of the two evils than "involuntarily commit her!" At least in the former you are respecting personal choice and freedom.
On November 15 2009 04:00 DreaM)XeRO wrote: "suicide is the wrong answer to a temporary problem"
> <;; try and convince her that death IS NOT the only option i clearly cant imagine her situation but try and convince her that there is a light at the end of the tunnel
not the "ONLY?" option? its NOT an option, period.
Yes it is. LISTEN PEOPLE. Telling somebody suicidal that they are weak/wrong is COUNTERPRODUCTIVE. These are the reasons they are killing themselves in the first place. You can make death an option, while making it by far the least preferable.
I really don't think you should just discount her reasons with platitudes like it's not worth it, et cetera. Some prisoners of war commit suicide while being tortured, and if someone told them that it's not worth it and he was being stupid and weak, I would assume the someone has a remarkable inability to understand perspectives outside of their after school special knowledge. This might sound offensive to some posters, but so is just completely ignoring what she thinks.
Bleh, you should probably tell her to grow some balls, she is going to jail and that's like the only alternative. Sounds like she has no kids so it isn't all that much of a deal.
She fucked it up, and now she's trying to take another easy route while fucking up you and whatever other relatives or friends she has. Millions of women have gone through jail and survived.
if she lied to the bank to say she makes 250k is another situation, but to make sure im clear on the situation. She really makes 250k a year and only claimed 20k of income on her tax return. So when applying for a loan/house/etc... she told the truth that she really makes 250k.
if your trying to over inflate your income on a tax return to prove how much you make to the bank is very silly to say the least.
if she does make 250k a year after expenses then you should file under the VDP, but a very important part is to go to an accountant because you need to calculate what you expect the interest and penalties are going to be and the amount owing. all that needs to be included when you file under the VDP, which is why im saying you should talk to an accountant. A professional accountant in your province should be able to help you out.
It will cost abit, but for piece of mind its worth it. And you dont want to mess that up.
On November 15 2009 07:21 Tower82 wrote: if she lied to the bank to say she makes 250k is another situation, but to make sure im clear on the situation. She really makes 250k a year and only claimed 20k of income on her tax return. So when applying for a loan/house/etc... she told the truth that she really makes 250k.
if your trying to over inflate your income on a tax return to prove how much you make to the bank is very silly to say the least.
That's exactly what she did. I advise you to read a bit more carefully on what Tien says she did. She makes 20k for real.
That's the reason I wanted to clarify the issue. My understanding was that she frauded on her notice of assessment is that she lied on her tax return to the CRA.
There is no tax issue here by lying on her notice of assessment. She claimed what she really made. she commited fraud on her bank loan by altering her notice of assessment. thats just pure fraud and she needs to talk to a lawyer.
The VDP is only to admiting wrong on your tax return. Thats it, nothing to do with other criminal acts.
You have to decide how much of yourself you want to put into helping her. Be honest with yourself. Unless you want to go the whole way and care for her through everything, don't pretend like you are at first. The worst thing you could do is to abandon her (or give up on her) halfway through. If you aren't willing to put in lots and lots of effort into this, as much as I'm opposed to the idea, seeking help from a professional might actually be the best idea.
If you are going to stick out the whole way, be there for her and hold her. Having someone who cares and supports her will make a huge difference. Calling the suicide hotline and asking for advice on how to help her is also a great idea.
There's tons of good advice in here, but just as much bad advice. It really depends what level you want to commit yourself to helping her.
I still think take her and running away to a foreign country for a new life or for a few months of respite, could be a decent idea. Depends on the girl, of course. You have to know if she was really focused on some burning ambition that has been now smashed into pieces.
On November 15 2009 03:36 keV. wrote: What the fuck are you doing in posting this on an internet forum?
A handful of internet sympathy and an armchair diagnosis won't do anything to keep your friend from killing herself. Act, and act properly.
When shit like this ends up on an internet forum it is impossible to take seriously. Call a fucking doctor. Jesus.
Why should anyone believe you when you claim you want 'serious' help all the while cracking Heath Ledger jokes. Anyone who makes a joke in poor taste has been banned, and the OP is making OD jokes.
This thread is a joke.
So he is looking for sympathy, shoot him.
People looking for sympathy on the internet deserve the comments "let her do it..." etc.
why dont she volunteer for africa or something, that will help her feel better, have time to clear her mind and then she with time can decide if she wants to come back and rebuild her life or just stay there.
On November 15 2009 11:25 GreEny K wrote: How is she in that much dept when she makes 250k... I dont understand, anyway, check her into a hospital or get her to talk to a shrink.
She doesn't make 250k. She claims she makes 250k. The banks lent her money because she claimed that she made that much.
Give me a break, angry-and-borderline-suicidal people. You don't ask a friend to help kill yourself. You don't need help to kill yourself. It's not really a two-person job. So when you say you want help to kill yourself, it just means you want help. You just want someone to know that you're hurting. But that's not what friends do. Friends don't ask friends to end their lives or commit felonies.
On November 15 2009 03:36 keV. wrote: What the fuck are you doing in posting this on an internet forum?
A handful of internet sympathy and an armchair diagnosis won't do anything to keep your friend from killing herself. Act, and act properly.
When shit like this ends up on an internet forum it is impossible to take seriously. Call a fucking doctor. Jesus.
Why should anyone believe you when you claim you want 'serious' help all the while cracking Heath Ledger jokes. Anyone who makes a joke in poor taste has been banned, and the OP is making OD jokes.
This thread is a joke.
So he is looking for sympathy, shoot him.
People looking for sympathy on the internet deserve the comments "let her do it..." etc.
TL is not the usual internet.
A collection of strangers and non-experts that take such posts seriously (TL), remain a collection of strangers and non-experts. TL or no.
Something I'd like to add. She's not the first to be in this position. There have been countless other people who have been in this situation and are currently in this situation as we speak (type/read/whatever). And chances are, many of them have had this resolved. Just the realization of that fact is often a good deal of comfort to people. Let her know that there's probably a solution out there, despite the fact that you yourself don't have a solution for her.
On November 14 2009 14:33 Tien wrote: She won't do it on her own.
She wants me to help her do it (yeah fucking right). I even lied to her and told her I'd help her do it (loooooool) but only to convince her to fly over to Montreal from Calgary to help her finish some other urgent business affairs.
But how long can someone survive on 1-2 hours of sleep a day? She's going to turn into a Heath Ledger.
1-2 hours a day means her cortisol is extremely elevated , just means her adrenal glands are working overtime which could put her at risk of adrenal fatigue or failure
probably too late now but is there any chance of selling the house to a private buyer?
You really do need to get some professional help with this, TL can provide good advice but it's going to come in bits and pieces and be spread out all over the place. You need one person who knows exactly what they're doing to provide you with a plan of action that'll take you into account as well, not just her.
It's going to be extremely difficult for you to take her situation on and provide the counselling and advice she needs if you're at all unsure about what to do. At the moment everything in her life is out of control so she's looking for a saviour with all the answers or a way out and if she's looking to you to be or provide those things... you're in an extremely difficult situation.
Debt and fraud are horrible things to be weighed down by, not only is she going to be blaming herself for the financial mess she's in but she's going to be choking on the guilt of lying about things in the first place. Combine that with having no close family she can turn to as well as the medication and the lack of sleep and you can see why she's caught in a vicious circle. You can be honest with her and it's important to do that without comparing her situation to someone else's. Her financial situation is bad but it's not hopeless, there's a tendancy to think of any organization like a bank as being a faceless monster ready to crush you in the computerized cogs but they do and will take circumstances into account if a person is willing to admit that they did something wrong and show that they want to make amends.
So, in the time before she gets to you, you need to find numbers for and call people who are trained and qualified to give you advice on two matters. 1) How to deal with her mental state and the best way of providing care for her both physically and emotionally. 2) Advice about resolving her debt issues.
From a legal point of view, whatever processes are currently underway to recover any money that she owes or to reposses her house will not stop but there is a chance that they can be temporarily halted or delayed if she is currently mentally or physically incapable of dealing with the situation. It is extremely important that the any debt collection agency, the bank or whoever is trying reclaim funds from her are made aware that she is not in a position where she can fully understand or deal with what is happening. If you talk to a debt advisor, they may suggest that someone takes on power of attorney on her behalf and that might help her to feel like she's not so weighed down with the pressure of sorting things out herself if she can't face it. This isn't something she can run from and although it may seem like an insurmountable thing, it isn't. With guidance and advice she can work this out and with your help she won't have to do it alone. She's in a dark place at the moment and if you want to be her light, you need to make sure that you know exactly what you're doing and that you've got people to support you as well. Take everything slowly and be sure of every step before you make it.
I very much recommend that you don't just check into her a hospital before you've spoken to a professional about the whole situation. If that's what they tell you to do then fine but don't make that decision by yourself. It might be possible for a counsellor to come out to see her in a place where she feels comfortable and would feel happy to talk to them or you may be able to convince her to talk to someone over the phone. You know her better than any of us so you are best suited to judge whether she's genuinely serious about suicide or if she's hoping to stay with you and thinking of your place as a refuge. Either way, professional help and advice first and try not to put any pressure on her when she arrives at your place.
I've been in an extremely similar situation to you and there's a lot more I'd like to say but I think you've got enough in this thread to make a start with things and to formulate a plan of action. I know it's unlikely but if there's anything I can do to help, feel free to pm me. Otherwise, I wish you all the best and hope that both of you are able to work this out.
I agree very much with the post above here. A friend of my brother, whom he had known since he was 5 and went to school with all the way up until now (he is in 4th year university), killed himself with a knife this past Friday. So do me a favour and please go to a professional for some help. My brother and his friends saw a few signs, and they didn't do anything drastic, and now they are missing a good friend. The most important thing is to act fast, and try not to leave your friend alone.
You should totally do something sweet for her... Show that there's someone out there who WANTS and CARES for her. I don't wanna touch too much on the psychological aspect... But what kinda debt is this? Is it liquid like spending too much money on clothes.. or like, poker debt?
bring her out for a walk, somewhere nice and beautiful. talk to her, and make her share all her problems, then promise to be her friend. a hug would be nice?
EPT
Buy her some flowers and bake her a cake. (A starcraft cake of course).
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