EPTNBA Offseason Thread 2009 - Page 28
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Xeris
Iran17695 Posts
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Xeris
Iran17695 Posts
If you just watch his game, he doesn't inspire people, rarely seems like he's playing with heart, etc. He just does his thing, and the rest takes care of itself. Someone like that shouldn't be the centerpiece of a team... if anything he'd play a Lamar Odom type role (not in terms of basketball, I realize they're totally different players) in the sense that he's just going to be a really amazing role player. Although Odom was critical to the championship, Bosh isn't Gasol for example, who is absolutely necessary for the Lakers to win it. So although I think Bosh is a really strong player, people make him out to be this superstar playing for a bad team whereas I think he's just a really good role player playing on a bad team. | ||
XaI)CyRiC
United States4471 Posts
On July 03 2009 13:10 Servolisk wrote:See what Shaq did to Bosh when they played? ^-^ Shaq is a much more useful center IMO. Will get a double team or a good pass in the half court. Shaq dominating Bosh when they matched up against each other makes him a much more useful center than Bosh? Shaq can pretty much dominate any player one-on-one, Bosh doesn't stand out in that regard. However, that doesn't make Shaq the best center in the game or even the most "useful". Bosh does many things that Shaq cannot do and is so much younger. Comparing the two and pointing to their individual matchups doesn't make any sense considering how different they are as players. I'm ignoring injuries and age here. Don't agree with this requirement of another star. He was starting to become a star on his own before Nash (or D'Antoni) even came. Ignoring injuries and age is to ignore two very relevant factors in determining a player's value to a team. Yao is the best center in the league when healthy, but it's that "if" and its rarity that hurts his value so much to other teams. Ignoring that factor doesn't make it irrelevant. As to Amare, he may have become a star, but not to the level he did playing alongside Nash. He has no back-to-the-basket game and no ball-handling skills. How was he going to score besides putbacks and transition buckets? He has to have someone creating offense and setting the table for him, and that's a pretty significant factor. How is Boozer selfish? Or are you talking off the court? For all that is made of his greed, he is making less than Bosh. Their regular season stats are similar, and in the playoffs Boozers' performance >>> Bosh's. Yeah, my selfish comment was referring to his general character, not his play style. As for making less than Bosh, the reason is because he's not as good of a player. Boozer plays on a team with one of the best offenses in the league thanks to have Deron, Okur, and AK next to him. You can't argue that the Jazz roster is comparable to the rosters Bosh has had to play with during his career. Put Bosh next to Deron, AK and Okur, and I can assure you that he'd do better than Boozer, especially since his defense is infinitely better. I think they have similar abilities as players, but IMO Aldridge is better to have since he is not a sissy. Kind of subjective, but I think many Raptor fans might agree :O Sorry, but this isn't a convincing argument in my opinion. He hasn't accomplished anything, he isn't the main guy for his team, most of his offense is generated by his teammates, and hasn't yet shown the 20/10 and defense that Bosh has. The potential is definitely there (I'm actually quite a fan and hope he fulfills it), but you'd be hard-pressed to find many people who'd take him over Bosh. It's fair that you think that Bosh isn't worth the money that he's likely going to get, and that maybe some of these other players would be better "buys" because they'd come cheaper. However, understand that Bosh is expected to get paid max money because he is a very very good player. In fact, he's one of the best players in the league, particularly when you consider how young he is, and that's why he's so highly desired by teams all over the league. | ||
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XaI)CyRiC
United States4471 Posts
On July 03 2009 16:43 Xeris wrote: But really. Cyric, you point out his lame rosters and 40 win seasons, big woop. This guy is talked about like he's a superstar, someone who will garner 90 million or something. The thing you need to realize is: 06-07 (Clevland in the finals) and 07-08 (Boston) featured some horribly bad Eastern Conference. 07-08 was a step in the right direction, but it was still bad... 06-07 as absolutely atrocious. So the fact that these teams made it to 40 wins with Bosh + role players isn't that miraculous. It's more of a testament to the badness of the east than to anything Bosh in particular did. If you just watch his game, he doesn't inspire people, rarely seems like he's playing with heart, etc. He just does his thing, and the rest takes care of itself. Someone like that shouldn't be the centerpiece of a team... if anything he'd play a Lamar Odom type role (not in terms of basketball, I realize they're totally different players) in the sense that he's just going to be a really amazing role player. Although Odom was critical to the championship, Bosh isn't Gasol for example, who is absolutely necessary for the Lakers to win it. So although I think Bosh is a really strong player, people make him out to be this superstar playing for a bad team whereas I think he's just a really good role player playing on a bad team. Maybe he shouldn't be the centerpiece for a team, but he could definitely be the Gasol on a championship team playing alongside an elite perimeter/wing player like Wade or Lebron. I know that this discussion started off talking about him as a Piston, but I never really argued in that context. It was stated that Bosh wasn't as good as Gordon, and that's simply not true. Then there was a comment that he wasn't a great player, when he clearly is. Is he the best PF/C out there? No. Is adding him to a team going to guarantee success in the postseason and a trip to the Finals? No. That's not true for any player in the league, and none of that takes away from the fact that he's very good and that he would be a great addition to any team. There are VERY few players who can give you what Bosh does, and that's why he's been hyped so much and desired by every GM who can get the cap space. He's definitely more Gasol than Odom, and I think he could very easily be the second best player on a championship team. | ||
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HonestTea
5007 Posts
On July 03 2009 13:11 Servolisk wrote: If we did, probably would have had at least two, maybe three championships out of the 2004 team. T_T This still keeps me up at night. | ||
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city42
1656 Posts
The fact that Cyric here is trying to praise Bosh for defense is asinine. Are we talking about the same Chris Bosh here? The usually offensively-inept Dwight Howard has field days whenever the magic play Toronto. I don't think I've seen Dwight have a single bad game in the last three years with Bosh on him. Toronto actually played Orlando pretty tough in the '08 playoffs, but they lost the series entirely because of Bosh's inability to get any rebounds or stop getting burned by Dwight's hideous post moves. Let me put it to you this way: Toronto gives up less points and holds their opponents to a lower shooting percentage when Bosh is OFF the court. They also have higher rebounding percentages, both offensive and defensive, when he's on the bench. Saying Bosh has better defense than Boozer is like saying that a guy shoots better than Rafer Alston, or has a higher basketball IQ than Zach Randolph. Congrats, Chris, you're better than the worst defensive forward in the league! | ||
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DN2perfectionGM
United States233 Posts
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On July 03 2009 17:34 city42 wrote: Let me put it to you this way: Toronto gives up less points and holds their opponents to a lower shooting percentage when Bosh is OFF the court. They also have higher rebounding percentages, both offensive and defensive, when he's on the bench. Saying Bosh has better defense than Boozer is like saying that a guy shoots better than Rafer Alston, or has a higher basketball IQ than Zach Randolph. Congrats, Chris, you're better than the worst defensive forward in the league! proof please  | ||
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igotmyown
United States4291 Posts
Good 7 18 28% -5.9 Average 12 15 44% 1.3 Bad 22 8 73% 11.7 That's 41 wins, so I assume this is the right interpretation A western conference team with a similar record is ... Portland at 41-41 in 2007. Good 10 22 31% -5.3 Average 10 14 42% -1.5 Bad 21 5 81% 4.8 A team plays 16 games in their division, 30 against the other conference, this is the conference difference. If the raptors had played 7 more games against good teams, and 3.5 less against average and bad teams, they would have lost about 5 more games against good teams, had around 1 less loss against bad teams, and 1.5 less losses against mediocre teams. So toronto would have been maybe 38-39 wins instead of 41. What about the division? Toronto's had Boston (66-16), Philadelphia (40-42), New Jersey (34-48), New York (23-59) Portland's had Utah (54-28), Denver (50-32), Minnesota (22-60), Seattle (20-62) Combined the Atlantic opponents are 163 wins, Northwest is 148, so evidently the Atlantic compares favorably to the worst (of 3) conference division. Chris Bosh +/- type stats for 2008-2009 + Show Spoiler + http://www.82games.com/0809/08TOR15.HTM Defensive points allowed per 100 possessions is +1.7 with him off. effective field goal percentage changes from 51.3% to 50.3% and total rebounding from 48.7 to 50.4. I can't tell much from the top 20 lineups except that Bosh is in 19 out of 20 of them. Carlos Boozer's on/off court stats http://www.82games.com/0809/08UTA11.HTM Defensively the opponents score 111.9 per100 with him on, 106.9 with him off. eFG% allowed is 3.4% lower with him off. Total rebounding drops 0.2%. Dwight Howard Defensively 102.5 per 100 with him on 103.6 with him off. eFG% allowed is 0.2% better with him on. Rebounding is up 0.9% with him on. | ||
Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On July 03 2009 13:11 Servolisk wrote: If we did, probably would have had at least two, maybe three championships out of the 2004 team. T_T We'd have 2 guaranteed if we had taken Wade, just by stealing the Heat's. | ||
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HonestTea
5007 Posts
On July 03 2009 20:34 Jibba wrote: We'd have 2 guaranteed if we had taken Wade, just by stealing the Heat's. FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCCCCCCCCCCCCCC- CCCCCCCCCCCKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
On July 03 2009 12:34 unknown.sam wrote: i don't like artest going to LA (doesn't seem like he'll fit). but i like ariza going to the rockets tho...hope be blossoms into a great player in houston. How? It's the same exact situation with the NJ Nets and K-Mart a few years back, K-Mart was getting spoon fed by Jason Kidd, the same is going to happen to Ariza in Houston. Who on the Rockets will do anything for Ariza offensively? No Yao, No McGrady (in the beginning), they have outside shooters, Scola doesn't exactly pose as a penetrating threat. Most of his shots in the playoffs were stand around at the 3 point line and shoot it when Bryant, Gasol pass it out, pretty sweet when you have 2 players that can draw double teams on any given possession and a third off the bench that defenses HAVE to respect in a lot of ways (in Odom). | ||
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Xeris
Iran17695 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13536 Posts
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unknown.sam
Philippines2701 Posts
On July 03 2009 22:56 Judicator wrote: How? It's the same exact situation with the NJ Nets and K-Mart a few years back, K-Mart was getting spoon fed by Jason Kidd, the same is going to happen to Ariza in Houston. Who on the Rockets will do anything for Ariza offensively? No Yao, No McGrady (in the beginning), they have outside shooters, Scola doesn't exactly pose as a penetrating threat. Most of his shots in the playoffs were stand around at the 3 point line and shoot it when Bryant, Gasol pass it out, pretty sweet when you have 2 players that can draw double teams on any given possession and a third off the bench that defenses HAVE to respect in a lot of ways (in Odom). i said what i said because on the LA team, he was like 4/5 option offensively on the floor. so with that said you hardly got a chance to see what ariza could do on the offensive end. with tmac and yao out of the lineup, he will proly get more playing time which could also translate into him getting more scoring opportunities as the 3rd scoring option behind scola and brooks. however i wouldn't be surprised if his improvement was minimal or if his production declined. but you have to agree that all a player needs sometimes is a chance to show what they can really do on the floor, and i'm just hoping that scenario will play out for ariza in houston. | ||
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city42
1656 Posts
On July 03 2009 18:51 Ace wrote: Bosh is average at worst defensively, not abysmal. Anyone can look like shit on defense when you play on a team that's known for bad defense :/ proof please The guy above just posted my source (82games.com). It's a pretty amazing site for the advanced stats that basketball-reference can't get into. You can also see how bad Boozer is on D by checking the Jazz page. I'm well aware that Toronto is a garbage defensive team, but my observational comments on Bosh were solely on him as an individual. He has absolutely no defensive rebounding prowess when any other marginally good big man is up against him. Toronto doesn't get much national TV time so I have mainly just seen their games against the magic. In the playoffs, where you can be assured everyone is giving their all, his defensive performance was very underwhelming. If you look at Toronto's playoff page from the '08 playoffs, you can see a behemoth drop in Orlando's offensive production when he sat for a breather. Now, considering he played 82% of the minutes and this was a five game series, we're talking about an extremely small sample size. I'm sure you watched those games so you can make your own conclusions about it. Maybe I'm a bit harsh towards Bosh, but I hate players who totally neglect the defensive side of the ball (welcome to Orlando, VC!). If you're going to throw max contract-level money at an offense-only big man, he needs to be a whole lot more than a 23 ppg scorer, and I don't see Bosh becoming much more than that. | ||
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decafchicken
United States20176 Posts
On July 03 2009 20:34 Jibba wrote: We'd have 2 guaranteed if we had taken Wade, just by stealing the Heat's. stop it. just stop  everytime i think of that draft a bit of me dies inside. again. and again. and again. | ||
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XaI)CyRiC
United States4471 Posts
On July 04 2009 03:35 city42 wrote: The guy above just posted my source (82games.com). It's a pretty amazing site for the advanced stats that basketball-reference can't get into. You can also see how bad Boozer is on D by checking the Jazz page. I'm well aware that Toronto is a garbage defensive team, but my observational comments on Bosh were solely on him as an individual. He has absolutely no defensive rebounding prowess when any other marginally good big man is up against him. Toronto doesn't get much national TV time so I have mainly just seen their games against the magic. In the playoffs, where you can be assured everyone is giving their all, his defensive performance was very underwhelming. If you look at Toronto's playoff page from the '08 playoffs, you can see a behemoth drop in Orlando's offensive production when he sat for a breather. Now, considering he played 82% of the minutes and this was a five game series, we're talking about an extremely small sample size. I'm sure you watched those games so you can make your own conclusions about it. Maybe I'm a bit harsh towards Bosh, but I hate players who totally neglect the defensive side of the ball (welcome to Orlando, VC!). If you're going to throw max contract-level money at an offense-only big man, he needs to be a whole lot more than a 23 ppg scorer, and I don't see Bosh becoming much more than that. I don't think it's a good idea to base your observations almost entirely on when Bosh matches up against Dwight, since Dwight tends to make any opposing big man look bad. Bosh matches up particularly badly against Dwight because, let's be frank, he's PF and not a C. He's a solid defender who is long, quick and athletic, making him Odom/KG-like on defense (but not near KG in actual prowess of course). However, his biggest weakness on defense is his lack of weight and strength, which makes it very hard for him to guard "true" bigs like Dwight. He can match up pretty well against any PF and most Cs in the league, but ask him to guard some of the few true bigs we have in the league like Duncan, Pau, Dwight, or Yao, and he'll struggle. As we all know the number of those kinds of big post players has dwindled over the past few seasons, which allows a lot of players who would normally be stuck at PF to play C (i.e. Amare, Brand, Boozer), so Bosh isn't alone in this respect. If he ends up on a team where he can play PF almost exclusively, I think he will show that he's a solid defender, if he hasn't done so already with the numbers cited above. | ||
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Servolisk
United States5241 Posts
On July 03 2009 16:44 XaI)CyRiC wrote: As to Amare, he may have become a star, but not to the level he did playing alongside Nash. He has no back-to-the-basket game and no ball-handling skills. How was he going to score besides putbacks and transition buckets? He has to have someone creating offense and setting the table for him, and that's a pretty significant factor. . I don't really agree. Of course, he is a great transition player, perhaps that overshadows his half court offensive abilities. He is a very versatile and creative offensive player. Check out two samples of things he does all the time: OK another one since Amare rocks. His quickness is very impressive, few PF/Cs can make quick moves to the basket like that from 15 feet out. Another one from far out (almost 3 pt line) since Amare rocks: Damn, for the first time I'm highly upset we have CV (and not Amare :@@@@@@@@@). | ||
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Servolisk
United States5241 Posts
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