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--- SPOILERS IN THE COMMENTS ---
So I played some Minesweeper to keep me Busy while I wait for the SC2-Servers to come back online but now I am stuck... can anyone help me ? I already had 2 "luck shots" and I dont want to risk any more ;D
If you want to think of your own then I recommend NOT reading the Comments.
Original Problem:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/iCkR5.png)
Update #1:
kdgns helped with an information about the top left corner, he said:
+ Show Spoiler +
The 3 blocks to the left of the 4 in the upper left are all mines since the 2 to the right of it gets the last one
So the Field now looks like this: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/XwkX5.png) But this new piece of information does not help me get to the next step :/ So I ask once again, does anyone see another piece of Information in here? Im stuck AGAIN!
Update #2:
kdgns helped me again, this time it concerns the bottom "island":
+ Show Spoiler +kdgns wrote:
the unopened blocks at the center bottom, look at the group of 2s you should be able to deduce the identity of the block 11 from the right and 4 up from the bottom. He was right! The mentioned block(Yellow Squared) could NEVER be a Mine so I cleared it, now it is a 4. The Field now looks like this (The Yellow Square marks the forementioned block): ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/oyi1r.png) From here I can again, not see a solid solution to any of the Problems, If I dont find the Solution after a while I WILL take a guess. But I want to know if it really is nessessary to guess here, is there a safe way to get another piece of information from here?
Update #3:
+ Show Spoiler +I took 2 guesses here (Yellow Squared). Neither of them helped me a lot, had to take a 3rd Guess(not documented here, it was the square left of the "4" with the Yellow mark in the screenshot below). The Field: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/NNXTF.png)
Update #4:
+ Show Spoiler +The guessing mentioned in Update #3 helped me to clear out the bottom island. Next thing to do was take ANOTHER guess and it went BOOM!The End:![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/MYQgW.png) I still wish to know if I could have managed to get to any information without taking risks, maybe I overlooked something <.< but my hopes are dwindling. I learned that Minesweeper really is about luck even if you discovered half of the map. Also I have learned that SC2-Server Downtime can lead to a 14836 Second TL-Assisted Minesweeper run. Thanks to this awesome community ;D It was fun.
plx give explanations for any thesis.
Ty
Off topic - Should this thread go to "General" ?
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The 3 blocks to the left of the 4 in the upper left are all mines since the 2 to the right of it gets the last one
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You sir, are a genious.
Thank you very much. If I run into another problem ill update this thread 
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the unopened blocks at the center bottom, look at the group of 2s you should be able to deduce the identity of the block 11 from the right and 4 up from the bottom.
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*shrug* Just guess and move on. Getting worked up over one minesweeper game is just silly.
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at the top left there is a 4 with a 2 next to it. the 2 says above or beneath the 4 is not a bomb, so the 3 left from the 4 are 3 bombs. i hope you understand me
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sint, open the spoiler to "Update #1" is that what you meant?
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I hope my hint was clear when you have something like
[A][X]
[B][2]
[C][2]
[2][X]
where X is a known mine and A, B, C are unopened
since the either B or C is a mine due to the lower of the connected 2s, B or C will satisfy the requirements for both of the connected 2s, so A will always be a safe square you can click open, pray its a 1
in fact this combination is so common ([X][2][2][X] on a wall) if you ever see it even if the wall is completely unopen, there is a high probability that the squares directly below the flagged mines will be safe, and should be the first spot to guess when there are no more options.
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Your hint the unopened blocks at the center bottom, look at the group of 2s you should be able to deduce the identity of the block 11 from the right and 4 up from the bottom. was clear, I deduced that the block left to the 2 can NOT possibly have a mine, since I tried to assume there was one and it lead to logical problems, so i opened it and there is a "4" now.
At the moment i am trying to figure out the next step on my own ;D ill update the thread if I need further help ^.^
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On February 22 2012 17:34 kdgns wrote:
I hope my hint was clear when you have something like
[A][X]
[B][2]
[C][2]
[2][X]
where X is a known mine and A, B, C are unopened
since the either B or C is a mine due to the lower of the connected 2s, B or C will satisfy the requirements for both of the connected 2s, so A will always be a safe square you can click open, pray its a 1
in fact this combination is so common ([X][2][2][X] on a wall) if you ever see it even if the wall is completely unopen, there is a high probability that the squares directly below the flagged mines will be safe, and should be the first spot to guess when there are no more options.
Even though I understood your previous Hint, THIS (what I quoted here) is a little strange, you are talking about "probabillity" and "guessing" even though your previous Hint led me to a 100% sure thing.
Im a little bit confused but well...
I often hear that you NEVER need to guess except in the beginning of course...
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your situation had 1 open square already so there is no guessing, I was talking about a hypothetical situation
[A][X]
[B][2]
[C][2]
[D][X]
where A, B, C, and D are all unknown, in this situation, there is a high likelyhood (not 100%) that A and D are safe squares and B or C is mined.
Many minesweeper games will result in guessing, but theres guessing smartly and guessing wildly.
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Yeah you are right with your hypothesis, but now i have been trying to figure out a SAFE way to manage my problem now but i think i have to make 2 very risky guesses.
I opened up Paint and made a copy to come up with multiple solutions and then see if every possible solution would say anything like "This block MUST be a Mine / This block MUST NOT be a mine" but I couldnt find it (for the bottom Island anyway)
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I hate when this happens in minesweeper. Some games come down to pure blind luck.
Play free cell instead. It's the esport of games that come with windows.
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Damn Meta, now my view of Minesweeper is shattered ... I thought it would NOT come down to blind luck after I've come so far <.<
damn it damn it damn it <.<
Now I think i need to try one of these red marked ones:
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/FdBYf.png) Because the chances of Success is 2 in 3. Its the safest guess i have found so far for the bottom Island.
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Lalalaland34505 Posts
Minesweeper even at its highest level still involves some luck. Difference is at that level, you realise that it is purely luck so you click at random without hesitation, avoiding any wasted time. If you got unlucky, oh well, start again. If you got lucky then yay!
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Your best chance is around the 2 NE of the 4 with 3 mines next to it. There's 1 mine in 4 available slows, and moreover, you could estimate there's already a 50% chance that it's the one to the left. So if you assume indepedent probabilities (not true), NW of that 2 is has a 1/6 chance. However, it is unlikely it will give you useful information.
If you want a useful guess, I'd click NW of the 2 (left of 1 1 1 2 3) on the left side. If it's not a mine, N of the 2nd 1 and N the 3 are free, and there's a good chance it will give you useful information.
Finally, a lot of unknown tiles have an either or pair, so if you have enough mines, you can account for a large number of mines, and you can either deterministically or probabilistically get information on a
a
a b
situation, where the mines are either both a or just b, or similar ones. For example, in the southern middle block, there are exactly 5 mines in above the bottom 4 rows. That puts you at 18.
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bottom center has approximately 11 mines in that you know of, with little room for more
Top left has approximately 6-8 on the walls. This leaves 4 to 6 mines in the bulk area of NE, 6 out of 40 bulk squares are mines, so guessing in the bulk of NE would yield 85% chance of not hitting a mine, but it would also give the least reward, you would be hoping to hit a blank square to open up an inside wall.
The horizontal bottom edge of the NE corner is the most tempting to start to guess, opening up 1 square could potentially clear the whole area.
[A][B][C][D][E][F][G][X]
[X][2 ][1][1 ][1][2 ][3 ][H]
If A is a mine, B, C, E, F would be safe and D is a mine
if B is a mine, A, C, D, F would be safe and E would be a mine
if C is a mine, A, B, D, E, would be safe and F is a mine
1/3 chance of hitting a mine if you guess A, B, or C, and it would clear up the entire row
If it was me, i would take a chance in the bulk, then no matter what you get, go for A, B or C
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I just failed ... Update inc xD
Thanks everyone for the theorycraft. It definetily helped me improve my english at least ;D At first it was quite confusing but well ... Special Thanks to kdgns! <3
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It could be worse. I often get try for speed, get tired halfway through, then misclick on a mine because I refuse to safe click.
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On February 22 2012 17:11 Milestone wrote:
*shrug* Just guess and move on. Getting worked up over one minesweeper game is just silly.
I think that getting worked up over anything can be called silly <.<
But Theorycrafting and logically connecting information to solve puzzles is something that is done on TL since years. Its been done almost to perfection and I wanted to do the same here. Getting better in SC2 and Minesweeper or anything else ... maybe thats silly to you idc. Maybe I just dont really know what you wanted to achieve with your comment so I dont know what to answer to this but well... improving is not everyones goal I guess ;D
I had fun today
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I'll give you a hint for future games
if you ever see something along a wall like
[O][1 ][2][1][O]
[A][B][C][D][E]
Where O is any opened square (not a mine), C will almost always be safe and B and D will be mines, this can help you quickly break into a flat wall that you otherwise would have to think really hard about.
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It could also be "B" and "D" though kdgns ;X
Or is there any other reason that its "C" more often than "B" and "D" ? (something like the random lvl generator or something)
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On February 22 2012 20:16 Daumen wrote:
It could also be "B" and "D" though kdgns ;X
Or is there any other reason that its "C" more often than "B" and "D" ? (something like the random lvl generator or something)
Thats the trick, at first glance you think that B, C, or D are all equally likely but suppose it was B that was safe, then either A or C is the mine for the leftmost 1.
Suppose A was a mine, then C would have to be safe, but theres a problem, the 2 in the middle no longer has enough squares to put 2 mines, so it is not possible to be A
What if C was a mine? then the 2 in the middle would require D would be a mine as well, but the rightmost 1 would have 2 mines on it if this was the case, again C can not be a mine.
Thus, B must be the mine, C is safe, and D is another mine.
A similar argument can be made for the other side, by symmetry.
This pattern is actually pretty robust, if there is a mine above the 2, the reasoning for why A can't be a mine is not valid, but notice that even if A was a mine, C is still safe. So, when seeing a 121 pattern, clicking the block under the 2 is a very safe move. however if there is a mine above the 2 the 1s to the side of it would be satisfied anyway, and that wall can be cleared anyway.
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I still remember the first time I beat expert (as other said, luck was needed)
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Can you beat this game without "guessing"?. If not then there's no reason to try.
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Lalalaland34505 Posts
There is. There sometimes is guesswork involved, but it is no different from any other game. Do you always know if a reaver shot will kill all the scvs or nothing at all?
The point of minesweeper is to be able to minimise the risks or the guesses you need to take, and to make the correct decisions as quickly as possible. Feel free to look on YouTube for minesweeper world records - I assure you that those people did not fluke their way into the record books.
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Minesweeper is awesome!
But please don't use the Windows 7 version, it is absolutely horrible. Get Minesweeper X here, or Minesweeper Clone here. I think I'm gonna keep saying this every time I see a minesweeper thread.
Besides that, you will almost always have to guess when solving Expert, it's part of the game unfortunately.
Edit: If you are gonna guess, do it intelligently. Neither of your guesses were. Personally, in this situation I would have clicked one of the top squares of the bottom chunk, because that would have allowed me to further solve that chunk if I didn't click a mine.
Edit2: Holy crap, 14836 seconds. You must have been working on this one a really long time :p.
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Lalalaland34505 Posts
Minesweeper arbiter is another alternative.
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Yeah and VSweeper, but I like the two I mentioned the best.
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Apparently MInesweeper has Xbox 360 controller support, I was playing with a wired controller plugged into my computer and when I hit a mine it started rumbling on my desk. It scared the shit out of me.
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On February 22 2012 22:05 bartus88 wrote:Minesweeper is awesome! But please don't use the Windows 7 version, it is absolutely horrible. Get Minesweeper X here, or Minesweeper Clone here. I think I'm gonna keep saying this every time I see a minesweeper thread. Besides that, you will almost always have to guess when solving Expert, it's part of the game unfortunately. Edit: If you are gonna guess, do it intelligently. Neither of your guesses were. Personally, in this situation I would have clicked one of the top squares of the bottom chunk, because that would have allowed me to further solve that chunk if I didn't click a mine. Edit2: Holy crap, 14836 seconds. You must have been working on this one a really long time :p.
What is the difference between these Minesweeper versions?
The guesses were safe and gave me very little information, didnt want to take the 50/50 chances but you are right... The thing is I didnt sleep that night and I was so tired I guess I stopped taking this game "serious" and wanted to get the hell on with it.
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Minesweeper X is one of the best versions out there. It has anti cheat features and a replay system.
I know this isn't about competitive minesweepering, but its solid, and can emulate the xp minesweeper (best, fastest and supirior colour and layout choises(Other versions can be confusing)).
Solving an expert board is not that hard tbh. It just requires that you figure out the special logic of minesweeper. The most important logical step is what I like to call the "pseudo mine".
Basically you ask the question: If there is (not) a mine on X, will the numbers add up? In the example with the 121 wall, you ask if there is a mine under the 2, as this will satisfy the two 1's but leave the 2 without a second mine, the answer is: NO there cannot be a mine there.
Other formations you can solve are variations on the 3-2 cup:
[X][ 3][ 2][X]
[A][B][C][D]
[X]
[X][ 4][ 2][X]
[A][B][C][D]
_______ [X]
[X][ 3][ 3][X]
[A][B][C][D]
Where X are mines flagged and A, B, C and D are unclicked fields. In this scenario (very common one) A has a mine and D has no mine (B and C are ambigious). This is deducted by asking "what if there is a mine on D" AND "what if there is no mine on A"
If you can use those questions to prove there is a mine on A and none on D, you should be able to easily beat an expert board in 3-4 tries (after using the same logic on other problems)
Here are some other formations easily solvable with this logic:
[1][ 2][ 2][1]
[A][B][C][D]
[2][ 1][ 2]
[A][B][C]
_____[E]
[1][ 4][D]
[A][B][C]
[1][ 3][D]
[A][B][C]
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EPT
