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United States10328 Posts
On November 16 2011 08:10 57 Corvette wrote:
I'm glad someone bumped this.
I know doing this is the single player games is optimal for points, but is Tspinning viable for multiplayer games?
ST-stacking is very powerful for pressure--one T-spin delivers quite a number of garbage lines. However, you have to be fast and accurate. If you get a little unlucky, you might have to stack high, leaving the possibility of a quick combo "ganking" you. Or if you mess up, you have to be really quite good to downstack and recover (since I have no Tetris game sense, I usually fail at this...) Also, it's very hard to clear garbage that is delivered to you (unless the empty blocks are in one of the tetrising slots on the right!); so sometimes, you might want to save a T and use it to block incoming garbage.
Of course, if you're playing Battle 6p or 2p on TetrisFriends, you should have no trouble just ST-stacking (a decent proportion of the level 20 players I've played against use it), since garbage is cleared when you send lines, and you're playing against replays so they won't adjust their strategy to gank you. Just don't mess up ^^
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I thought this was all general knowledge gained by playing?
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United States10328 Posts
On November 17 2011 18:37 John Madden wrote:
I thought this was all general knowledge gained by playing?
er, the guide? Well, sure, but I can only assume that 90% of Tetris players (even those who regularly ST-stack) don't really understand everything in it--otherwise everyone would have a score of 50k+.
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lol this is the first post ive made on this site since my BW days (quit after SC2) came out
just would like to say that a friend referenced me to this guide
and I'll never look at tetris the same way again
im currently at a ceiling of 36k~ right now, i really want to break 50k but I just don't really
know how to speed up anymore : /
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United States10328 Posts
On November 30 2011 21:02 shinjin wrote:
lol this is the first post ive made on this site since my BW days (quit after SC2) came out
just would like to say that a friend referenced me to this guide
and I'll never look at tetris the same way again
im currently at a ceiling of 36k~ right now, i really want to break 50k but I just don't really
know how to speed up anymore : /
Are you playing on TF or Facebook? The latter always has stupid lag for me T_T
Don't worry, we all hit ceilings... I hit ceilings at like 40k, 55k, 60k, 65k (probably a few more than that, but I don't remember). If you find you absolutely can't improve after playing all the time, take a break! You can still think about Tetris... it's hard not to, actually... but don't play for a week or two, or longer. Personally this helped me a lot 
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I saw flamewheel post in the weird talent thread and I was just watching his video about him not cheating.
Then a few hours later this thread appears again.
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I'd like to share a finding on ST (or ZT) stacking. Some guy did a pretty nice analysis of it and found that there's no way to sustain it without wasting T-pieces in the left stack or having T-nulls. (Thread here).This is pretty  because the left stack is pretty hard to fix once you add a T because it makes it kind of spiky. The paper also shows that you can sustain t-spins by alternating between ST (ZT) and JZT (LST) spinning. There isn't a really good guide on JZT spinning but this is a decent video on it. If you alternate between the two methods, you can keep t-spinning forever without ever wasting a T. :3 However, there is always the obvious question of whether or not you will actually reach the point where T-spinning becomes unsustainable in the Ultra time limit, and whether or not this matters too much as a few reconfigurations can solve this problem, at least until you run out of time.  Lastly, take a look at LT (JT) stacking (here), it's pretty awesome as it sets up multiple T-spins at once, something ST (ZT) stacking doesn't do, which could make it more flexible than ST (ZT) stacking in some situations. Furthermore, as far as alternative single-player stacking patterns go, 180 rotations can get you a string of T-spin triples if you make a side stack like LSOZJ(repeated) or its mirror image and make a 7 wide normal stack. The process is hard to describe, but it is realllly flexible and somewhat easy to abuse as t-spin triples are extremely valuable. I actually think NullpoMino, a very popular tetris clone, had to add another criterion (needing another block at the back of the T) for such spins to happen since it was just too strong. Which is kind of hilarious because comboing is absurdly strong and extremely easy to use.
As someone who pretty much exclusively (and frequently) plays multiplayer, I can tell you that ST stacking is not a good idea at all. You'll be lucky to get 3 t-spins before you have to change your strategy. Having to stack up like that is ridiculously vulnerable. You're pretty much at the mercy of your bag to clear lines, and as a result this tactic is pretty in versus. Bailing out of stacking like this is pretty tough too because you'll have a lot of weird LS set ups that you may or may not be able to convert efficiently. Ah talking about this stuff gets me pretty excited. I'm actually really inspired to make an "introduction to competitive tetris" thread, but I'm not sure if there's enough interest. >.< Funnily enough, a ton of the very competitive tetris players I know also play SC2.
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On December 01 2011 14:49 Antifate wrote:I'd like to share a finding on ST (or ZT) stacking. Some guy did a pretty nice analysis of it and found that there's no way to sustain it without wasting T-pieces in the left stack or having T-nulls. (Thread here).This is pretty because the left stack is pretty hard to fix once you add a T because it makes it kind of spiky.
This is already vaguely explained in flamewheel's guide. Doing tetrises will eventually deplete the height of the ST stack available for T-spinning, and you will eventually be forced to use a red piece in the center or the left side to raise your stack. Even so, after this is done, you will eventually run out of lines to perform a full T-spin double, and as you said one must "waste" T-pieces in the left stack. However, this is not necessarily seen as wasting. If you watch the replay of flamewheel's number one ranked Ultra game on tetrisfriends.com, you will see that at the end he was forced to use two T-pieces in the left to raise his stack for more T-spins. This occurred at around 100 lines cleared if I remember correctly. You will notice that after using two T-pieces in the left, his stack is significantly raised and he is basically back at his starting configuration with the "hump" of two blocks together in the left stack. I have realized that to pull this off, as I have dubbed it a "T-spin restart", you must use two T-pieces in the left stack to get the same configuration as before. If you only use one, you will end up with what you have described as "kind of spiky". The reason for this is that the T-piece is extremely unique comapred to the other pieces. If placed on a checkerboard, each of the distinct tetronimoes will have two light and two dark square covered up except for the T-piece, which will have three of one color and one of another. This is why T-pieces are best played in pairs, even while tetrising normally.
In his guide, flamewheel explains that in the opening two T-pieces and one red piece must be used in the center or left side, and another goes to the right stack to set up the first T-spin. This equates to two bags of pieces. If an odd number of bags is used for the opening, the left stack will have the "spiky" effect as described before, and left side stacking will be almost impossible to sustain. It is also pretty much impossible to use more than two bags for the opening since your stack will go too high and you will invariably top out before clearing enough lines.
Personally I like to forgo the step of keeping red as the leading piece in my first 32-38 lines cleared of my game, using two reds and two T-pieces in the center and left and then one to start the ST stack in the right in my opening. This saves me time because I don't have to worry about using a red in the left stack in the middle of my game; however I fully realize that this fact is only true because I'm pretty slow at ST stacking compared to the author of this guide.
Keeping in mind that it takes two bags to set up an opening for ST stacking, we can observe that it is possible to restart your ST stack once you reach the "sustainable yield" of two initial bags of about 100 lines cleared, as observed in flamewheel's video. This can be done by taking a break from T-spinning in the game and using two more T-pieces and another red piece (in my case two) in the center and left stacks once your overall stack is low enough to accomodate this. This will effectively give you more lines to T-spin with, and it keeps with the brother pairing system that flamewheel describes.
This method, as I have named a "T-spin restart", is entirely doable and very profitable if used as necessary. In the Ultra game mode this will probably not matter much at all since not even flamewheel needed to do the full restart, and at most you probably will have to use one or two T-pieces in the center or left to have enough lines for that last T-spin before time runs out. In other modes like marathon, however, this is pretty useful. I often practice ST stacking on my iPhone Tetris app which only has the marathon game mode, and I have performed quite a number of these restarts. This might also not be very useful in reality because by the time a restart is needed, the level of marathon is high enough and the speed is fast enough that few can keep up with the T-spinning without messing up.
My point is that ST stacking is entirely sustainable and can be played forever if one is skilled enough and has knowledge of this restart method. I have thought about ST stacking a lot and about the math that goes into calculating the differentials and the lines cleared vs. lines built up, and in almost every way ST stacking seems like the perfect sustainable stacking method. Many kudos to whomever was the genius to come up with this perfect method.
I would like to greatly thank flamewheel for this guide and for turning me into a Tetris fanatic who constantly nags his friends' incorrect and aesthetically displeasing ST stacking methods. This is by far the best guide I have ever read about most anything, and it has exponentially increased my grasp of the game of Tetris. Thank you!
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Yes, as intuition (and many sources) tells us, ST stacking is sustainable if you do not T-spin with every T and no one is trying to argue the contrary. But because you have to waste T's, this method is suboptimal. For example, imagine the benefit if the large amount of excess blocks pretty much always leftover (with the occasional T in there if you're fast enough) were converted into points, most notably T-spins. Due to the discrepancy in substack heights that is eventually created by this method, there are times where you cannot convert every T into a T-spin. Combining this with the time limit of this particular mode, it becomes clear that methods that do get a T-spin out of every T are better.
Think about it this way. You're only getting a certain amount of T's in two minutes. Wouldn't you want to get the most out of every one? When we're talking about records and nonsense, this type of stuff becomes important. And especially on fast Tetris clones, you can easily hit the point where you need to waste a T or bail out.
In this regard, ST stacking is not a perfectly sustainable method. However, transitioning from strategy to strategy in Ultra is rather mentally demanding, and following a pattern like ST stacking is very comfortable. The additional speed one gets from adhering to this formula throughout the game must be weighed against the benefits one could get from even more efficient stacking techniques. Unfortunately, no one has really gotten familiar enough with other infinite B2B T-spin chains (often actually due to top players like flamewheel causing others to copy them) to really evaluate how this works out. But it should be understood that ST stacking is not perfect, infinite, etc.
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FREEAGLELAND26780 Posts
Most of Antifate's statement is correct. In Ultra, it is true that you receive a limited number of T-pieces. Beyond the first two used in the two bags to make the beginning stack, you want to be hitting a T-spin with every single one of them. I haven't played in a while, but at IPL3 I was trying to set a new score. At some point you do have to ed up stacking another two T pieces on the left, but that's not until late in the game.
ST stacking does work infinitely though. It is entirely possible to essentially "start over" after the stack drops low enough as to become unsustainable for further T-spins. While there are certainly more efficient stacking patterns, ST stacking remains viable as long as you leave room for any piece to come up next--while demanding, it still is possible. For me it's completely routine.
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flamewheel do you know of where i could find a good guide to learn 4wide combos?
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This guide has literally been perfect, it was exactly what I was looking for the last few days, became addicted a few days ago after playing it for the first time after like 10 years.
And I decided I want to do ST stacking (at first I just did tetris since it was the method I had seen from the popular japanese tetris player that at the end plays invisible blocks, I am sure you know which I mean.)
So for like a week I did tetris and averaged 20-30 lines cleared on FB tetris battle, now past 3 days I practiced this and when I don't fail at the start I average 40+ despite clearly noticing I play slow, and I today got 71 lines which is amazing for me!
The problem I have encountered is the opening, and I don't really get how to approach it to solve the problems I am having with it, so I'd hope you could expand on the subject flamewheel.
I just so many times end up failing the opening and I can't wrap my head around how to solve it.
If you got some brilliant pointers to what opening I should aim for based on what the first pieces I see are, or which ones I should stay away from etc, that would be great.
To mention the game I just before typing this lost in the opening:
I got S-O-T-Z-I-J-L-L-J-Z-O-S-T-I in colors that is G-Y-P-R-L(long)-B-O-O-B-R-Y-G-P-L and from seeing S-O-T I went for the middle of the three examples you have of "standard" openings. But once I got to the J-L-L-J it all went pretty bad.
Another similar one I got today was:
S-O-J-T-Z-L-I-L-J-Z-O-S-T-I which I tried do the same opening for and ended up with the identical problem, which I have gotten way more then just two times.
As I understand it the 7 first pieces are all the 7 different ones, so with a 5 piece preview I basicly know one important thing: The order of which I get them
My problem comes with the second wave of pieces. From seeing the first pieces I pick one of the three examples shown and then it is often a gamble for me on getting the next 7 pieces in the right order.
So that is that of my problems
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My brother just got me into tetris friends and people are good as hell i rage quit more in tetris than SC so thank your Flamewheel with this hopefully i will become a tetris pro in less than a week.
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haha i've always wanted to become a cool t-spinner since everyone at my school and all my friends are still just lame tetris stackers (i am the best tho) but i didn't know where to start, thx now i will secure my place as tetris god among my friends even harder and be a lot better in general :>
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flamewheel, do you happen to know nrg.cheese? he goes to my school and he is fucking fast at tspin
through this guide and tips from him, i boosted my st stacking score to 47k which i think is pretty decent
you should make a guide for tspin tetris...which looks even harder xD
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Thank you flamewheel. I have gotten my score to 57.9k on tetrisfriends thanks to your guide, after a year of playing. I have reached the top 50 all time best and one day beat you!
Is there a way of playing tetris 2p battle with my friends? I know you can challenge on facebook but theres bombs and handicap. On tetris arena, the game stops after the first ko. Is there a way of playing arena with 5 kos?
edit: just got 41st !! :D :D :D
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This is wayyyyyy too intense for me holy shit.
But nice seeing this in action on R1CH's stream.
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i wish i could find a guide this informative on 20G kinds of tetris :[
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awesome guide!!
flamewheel how many lines do you usually send on average on tetris battle/friends?
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EPT
