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Hi everyone.
After having some thoughts after reading a few of the Pokemon Challenge threads, I decided to write up this Pokemon challenge I came up with.
It's still in an infant stage, so I want some inputs on how to make it harder/interesting and perhaps identity some loopholes. Nothing is set in stones. I will most likely play-test it once it gets good.
The core of the challenge is that only Pokemon with base total stats less or equal to 251 are allowed to be played. This number obviously can be changed, but right now I am looking at 251 because this includes Pidgey (Pidgey's base stats is 251), which seems to be the only option to get Fly for some generations.
Here's a list of them:
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/List_of_Pokémon_by_base_stats
I believe this forces the player to play smartly, perhaps EV-train early, and utilize type-advantages to the maximum. Also the player is forced to use Pokemon that are usually considered "gimmicks". I suspect the game is extremely hard when over-leveled Pokemon are penalized due to lack of all 8 badges. After all 8 badges are obtained, however, this will be mostly quite easy.
Obviously evolution is undesirable. As far as I know, meshing the B-button will stop the evolution, probably as many times as the player wants (someone confirm this?).
After this, we can also attach some rules about releasing fainted pokemon, no healing items, etc. I do want to allow Pokemon center, though. To make sure this is different from Nuzlocke, there is no restriction on when the player is allowed to catch Pokemon and how many Pokemon of a same species one can obtain.
Immediately, the starter violates this rule (they are about 300ish). To remedy this, one needs to immediately release the starter when a Pokemon with lower stats is caught. I believe every generation has at least one of them available in the first Route.
Also note that Shedinja violates this rule, even though its total stats is less then 251. The reason is that the only way to obtain this is to evolve Nincada, but Nincada's total stats is 266. There are some baby Pokemon that also suffer this problem but those are probably less important.
So what do you think?
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so wouldn't we violate the rule as soon as we start the game?
EDIT 1: WOW I CAN'T USE RATTATA
i'll have to find something else to fear with now >=(
EDIT 2:
alright, so i'm going to play this through platinum with:
Starly - FEAR
Bidoof
Trade in:
Pidgey
Togepi (because its beast)
Zubat
Swinub - FEAR
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On July 27 2010 12:42 seRapH wrote:
so wouldn't we violate the rule as soon as we start the game?
EDIT 1: WOW I CAN'T USE RATTATA
i'll have to find something else to fear with now >=(
EDIT 2:
alright, so i'm going to play this through platinum with:
Starly - FEAR
Bidoof
Trade in:
Pidgey
Togepi (because its beast)
Zubat
Swinub - FEAR
Wait a second. How are you going to get a Focus Sash in early game? I thought it would be assumed that trading is not allowed.
But yea you are right, we are going to violate the rule as soon as we start (very odd). But this cannot be helped. I considered setting the cutoff of total stats to be ~320. But I think that makes things too easy.
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Why not only allow 1st form pokemon?
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On July 27 2010 13:03 Oceanic wrote:
Why not only allow 1st form pokemon?
Because this is vague and many pokemon has only one form (e.g. legendaries, Lapras, Miltank, etc.).
EDIT: before I forget, there are also other problems. For example Scyther is the 1st form and it has a wooping 500 base stats. Sneasel and Wailmer are also pretty superior in statistics. This seems to violates the core idea of the challenge.
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ok, so how about only NFEs with base stats of <300 with the exception of the grass starter?
and smeargle. theres no way that thing can be allowed.
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On July 27 2010 13:47 seRapH wrote:
ok, so how about only NFEs with base stats of <300 with the exception of the grass starter?
and smeargle. theres no way that thing can be allowed.
I suppose <300 is also fine. Or maybe <320 so starters are legal. This mostly just reduces the difficulty of the game.
I don't see how Smeargle is powerful, though. Care to elaborate?
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On July 27 2010 14:39 illu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2010 13:47 seRapH wrote:
ok, so how about only NFEs with base stats of <300 with the exception of the grass starter?
and smeargle. theres no way that thing can be allowed. I suppose <300 is also fine. Or maybe <320 so starters are legal. This mostly just reduces the difficulty of the game. I don't see how Smeargle is powerful, though. Care to elaborate?
He can copy any move although I don't see why it shouldn't be allowed still. Its low base stats means its copied moves still won't be that strong.
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bellypass. mindreader sheer cold.
well, belly pass is relatively easy to get, but still incredibly strong. mindreader/sheer cold is just cheap, though much harder to get.
unless you get someone to throw you the moves in a link and you steal them from their secret base.
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On July 27 2010 15:18 seRapH wrote:
bellypass. mindreader sheer cold.
well, belly pass is relatively easy to get, but still incredibly strong. mindreader/sheer cold is just cheap, though much harder to get.
unless you get someone to throw you the moves in a link and you steal them from their secret base.
1HKO moves are indeed cheap. Thanks for bringing that up. I guess 1HKO moves should be illegal...
I don't see *too much* harm in Belly Drum, though. Doing a Belly Drum is just as dangerous as doing three Sword Dance, in my opinion.
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17018 Posts
On July 27 2010 15:34 illu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2010 15:18 seRapH wrote:
bellypass. mindreader sheer cold.
well, belly pass is relatively easy to get, but still incredibly strong. mindreader/sheer cold is just cheap, though much harder to get.
unless you get someone to throw you the moves in a link and you steal them from their secret base. 1HKO moves are indeed cheap. Thanks for bringing that up. I guess 1HKO moves should be illegal... I don't see *too much* harm in Belly Drum, though. Doing a Belly Drum is just as dangerous as doing three Sword Dance, in my opinion.
Except you can survive enough to pull off a belly drum, but Smeargle's never going to make it to three swords dances.
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On July 27 2010 15:54 Empyrean wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2010 15:34 illu wrote:On July 27 2010 15:18 seRapH wrote:
bellypass. mindreader sheer cold.
well, belly pass is relatively easy to get, but still incredibly strong. mindreader/sheer cold is just cheap, though much harder to get.
unless you get someone to throw you the moves in a link and you steal them from their secret base. 1HKO moves are indeed cheap. Thanks for bringing that up. I guess 1HKO moves should be illegal... I don't see *too much* harm in Belly Drum, though. Doing a Belly Drum is just as dangerous as doing three Sword Dance, in my opinion. Except you can survive enough to pull off a belly drum, but Smeargle's never going to make it to three swords dances.
I didn't check, but I am pretty sure we can use Sword Dance without Smeargle.
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On July 27 2010 22:57 illu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2010 15:54 Empyrean wrote:On July 27 2010 15:34 illu wrote:On July 27 2010 15:18 seRapH wrote:
bellypass. mindreader sheer cold.
well, belly pass is relatively easy to get, but still incredibly strong. mindreader/sheer cold is just cheap, though much harder to get.
unless you get someone to throw you the moves in a link and you steal them from their secret base. 1HKO moves are indeed cheap. Thanks for bringing that up. I guess 1HKO moves should be illegal... I don't see *too much* harm in Belly Drum, though. Doing a Belly Drum is just as dangerous as doing three Sword Dance, in my opinion. Except you can survive enough to pull off a belly drum, but Smeargle's never going to make it to three swords dances. I didn't check, but I am pretty sure we can use Sword Dance without Smeargle.
well the root of the comparison was
smeargle belly pass
vs
smeargle triple swords dance pass
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On July 27 2010 23:26 seRapH wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2010 22:57 illu wrote:On July 27 2010 15:54 Empyrean wrote:On July 27 2010 15:34 illu wrote:On July 27 2010 15:18 seRapH wrote:
bellypass. mindreader sheer cold.
well, belly pass is relatively easy to get, but still incredibly strong. mindreader/sheer cold is just cheap, though much harder to get.
unless you get someone to throw you the moves in a link and you steal them from their secret base. 1HKO moves are indeed cheap. Thanks for bringing that up. I guess 1HKO moves should be illegal... I don't see *too much* harm in Belly Drum, though. Doing a Belly Drum is just as dangerous as doing three Sword Dance, in my opinion. Except you can survive enough to pull off a belly drum, but Smeargle's never going to make it to three swords dances. I didn't check, but I am pretty sure we can use Sword Dance without Smeargle. well the root of the comparison was smeargle belly pass vs smeargle triple swords dance pass
Alright, I suppose Belly Drum is easier to pass.
I don't see too much problem even if Smeargle is included. Unlike competitive pokemon, we actually need to make Smeargle learn these skills. As far as I know, it is not allowed to reload a save (otherwise all death can be avoided), so we can't actually be sure that the Smeargles can learn these skills on our first try.
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Pokemon allowed by this challange
1st Gen onwardsPokemon
Caterpie
Metapod
Weedle
Kakuna
Pidgey
Zubat
Magikarp
2nd Gen Pokemon
Sentret
Spinarak
Pichu
Cleffa
Igglybuff
Togepi
Marill
Hoppip
Sunkern
Wopper
Swinub
Tyrogue
3rd Gen Pokemon
Zigzagoon
Wurmple
Silcoon
Cascoon
Lotad
Seedot
Ralts
Shedinja
Whismur
Makuhita
Azurill
4th Gen Pokemon
Bidoof
Starly
Burmy
Combee
Happiny
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slush20: it's actually a little bit less than that. Shedinja cannot be legally obtained without Nincada, which is not legal by the 251 rule. The baby pokemon Pichu, Cleffa, Igglybuff, and Happiny suffer similar problems, although they all appear in the wild in Sinnoh in the Trophy Garden (kind of rare...). There are also some other ones that are so weak that probably no one will consider them. For example Caterpie, Sunkern
If we do use the 251 rule, I believe the most useable Pokemon statistics-wise is Marill. With Huge Power and good IV/EV a high amount of Attack can be achieved. Movepool wise Marill is somewhat to be desired. Aquajet could be useful (egg move), except all possible parents for Aquajet are not legal by the 251 rule (unless we also allow Smeargle).
If we follow seRapH's suggestion and use the 300 rule + Grass starter, then probably the Grass starter will be quite good. Pikachu is also available, which is pretty good.
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Yeah, i know, the amount of pokemon is so little, i think 300 under is the best. As for pikachu, no light ball allowed
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ok, so a possible way to nerf the grass starter would be to restrict their movesets to include tackle and growl. or at least tackle or growl.
what about the imba items like salac berries? magikarp+flail+endure+salac berry could potentially be... not magikarp-like...
i think some hold items should be allowed, if not all, and recovery items i think will pretty much be required to have a decent shot at winning.
as for the list:
+ Show Spoiler +1st Gen
Caterpie
Metapod
Weedle
Kakuna
Pidgey
Zubat
Magikarp
2nd Gen
Sentret
Spinarak
Pichu
Cleffa
Igglybuff
Togepi
Marill
Hoppip
Sunkern
Wooper
Swinub
Smeargle
Tyrogue
3rd Gen
Zigzagoon
Wurmple
Silcoon
Cascoon
Lotad
Seedot
Ralts
Shedinja
Whismur
Makuhita
Azurill
4th Gen
Bidoof
Starly
Burmy
Combee
Happiny
<300
1st Gen
Rattata
Spearow
Ekans
Pikachu
Sandshrew
Nidoran F
Nidoran M
Vulpix
Jigglypuff
Paras
Diglett
Meowth
Horsea
Ditto
2nd Gen
Hoothoot (one i think that's important if you're playing 2nd gen)
Ledyba
Mareep
Pineco
Snubbull
3rd Gen
Taillow (one i think that's important if you're playing 3rd gen)
Wingull
Kirlia
Surskit
Shroomish
Slakoth
NINCADA (do we really want to legalize Shedinja?)
Shedinja?
Skitty
Meditite
Electrike
Trapinch
Shuppet
Duskull
Wynaut
Snorunt
Spheal
Bagon
Beldum
4th Gen
Shinx
Budew
Cherubi
Bonsly
Riolu
looking at the list of eligibles, I'm beginning to have second thoughts about the 300 thing. I'm up for something in the middle, as long as it includes hoothoot and taillow. 270?
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On July 28 2010 21:05 seRapH wrote:ok, so a possible way to nerf the grass starter would be to restrict their movesets to include tackle and growl. or at least tackle or growl. what about the imba items like salac berries? magikarp+flail+endure+salac berry could potentially be... not magikarp-like... i think some hold items should be allowed, if not all, and recovery items i think will pretty much be required to have a decent shot at winning. as for the list: + Show Spoiler +1st Gen
Caterpie
Metapod
Weedle
Kakuna
Pidgey
Zubat
Magikarp
2nd Gen
Sentret
Spinarak
Pichu
Cleffa
Igglybuff
Togepi
Marill
Hoppip
Sunkern
Wooper
Swinub
Smeargle
Tyrogue
3rd Gen
Zigzagoon
Wurmple
Silcoon
Cascoon
Lotad
Seedot
Ralts
Shedinja
Whismur
Makuhita
Azurill
4th Gen
Bidoof
Starly
Burmy
Combee
Happiny
<300
1st Gen
Rattata
Spearow
Ekans
Pikachu
Sandshrew
Nidoran F
Nidoran M
Vulpix
Jigglypuff
Paras
Diglett
Meowth
Horsea
Ditto
2nd Gen
Hoothoot (one i think that's important if you're playing 2nd gen)
Ledyba
Mareep
Pineco
Snubbull
3rd Gen
Taillow (one i think that's important if you're playing 3rd gen)
Wingull
Kirlia
Surskit
Shroomish
Slakoth
NINCADA (do we really want to legalize Shedinja?)
Shedinja?
Skitty
Meditite
Electrike
Trapinch
Shuppet
Duskull
Wynaut
Snorunt
Spheal
Bagon
Beldum
4th Gen
Shinx
Budew
Cherubi
Bonsly
Riolu looking at the list of eligibles, I'm beginning to have second thoughts about the 300 thing. I'm up for something in the middle, as long as it includes hoothoot and taillow. 270?
I thought about Magikarp and the Flail strategy before. Although a 200 base attack is certainly powerful, Magikarp has only 20 base stats for Attack, so it can't be that powerful.
Also, an easier way to use that strategy is to keep the Magikarp at low health before the battle, then use Choice Scarf.
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I think the total should be increased to 265. This would add:
Ratatta
Skitty
Wynaut
Spearow
Hoothoot
Shinx
Diglett
Ledyba
But would still exclude nincada at 266
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EPT
