EPTAnd the sample sizes are definitely too small, but there is little that can be done about that now. Most of these maps will probably be discarded in a month or so after this season's proleague. In my conclusion I specifically state that many maps that are "imbalanced" only because standard strategies don't work on them, but if a non-standard strategy (Silver's build on MH) were used on the map then the map might no longer be seen as imbalanced.
Maps in the Balance - Page 3
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Daigomi
South Africa4316 Posts
And the sample sizes are definitely too small, but there is little that can be done about that now. Most of these maps will probably be discarded in a month or so after this season's proleague. In my conclusion I specifically state that many maps that are "imbalanced" only because standard strategies don't work on them, but if a non-standard strategy (Silver's build on MH) were used on the map then the map might no longer be seen as imbalanced. | ||
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Cascade
Australia5405 Posts
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AltaiR_
Korea (South)922 Posts
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Sadist
United States7298 Posts
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useLess
United States4781 Posts
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YPang
United States4024 Posts
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liosama
Australia843 Posts
And i think after these maps mature strats will be found to alleviate for the 'imbalance'. | ||
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Daigomi
South Africa4316 Posts
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Dromar
United States2145 Posts
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/maps/168_Troy_thumbnail.jpg) I think Corsairs will give the protoss some important air superiority as long as they stay out of the middle of the map, where it's open and accessible by ground units. The ramps into the nats are a bit tight for zerg to not get raped by psi storms/reavers in conjunction with cannons. The ability to close off areas of the map by destroying the extractors can even further hinder the mobility of hydras trying to chase down or preempt a drop or corsair raid. I think this makes zerg drop tech much more important, but then there's nowhere to drop. Protoss cannons up the nat and cannons up the island expo, leaving no entry for a doom drop! The only advantage Zerg has is the wide open middle, which allows zerg to flank, etc. But the protoss never really has to go into the middle. I think the layout of the map allows protoss to abuse the lack of mobility given to ground units (which makes up most of zergs power), through Corsair air dominance, and an endless wave of drops. Anyway, that's my take on the map. What do you guys think? edit: this would also transfer to PvT with Carriers, although Terran has some better air-to-air options. | ||
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gwho
United States632 Posts
i have a question, though. For baekmagoji, the reasons for the imbalance is supposed to be race specific, as well as geographical. But for why Z > P on baekmagoji is purely geographical, and when i think about it, all of those reasons could be beneficial against terran as well. Fast lurkers? hell yes! and for terrans not having to build a second CC... isn't that true for ever race once again? zerg can get tech fast, toss can get gas units fast....There's no denying the statistics that supports the idea that it's a rockpaperscissors map, but I don't know if the complete reason for it can explained by what you've written for that map alone. very insightful, and written easily. great job. i enjoyed reading it =) | ||
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gwho
United States632 Posts
i have a question, though. For baekmagoji, the reasons for the imbalance is supposed to be race specific, as well as geographical. But for why Z > P on baekmagoji is purely geographical, and when i think about it, all of those reasons could be beneficial against terran as well. Fast lurkers? hell yes! and for terrans not having to build a second CC... isn't that true for ever race once again? zerg can get tech fast, toss can get gas units fast....There's no denying the statistics that supports the idea that it's a rockpaperscissors map, but I don't know if the complete reason for it can explained by what you've written for that map alone. very insightful, and written easily. great job. i enjoyed reading it =) also, what is an FE? forwards expansion? Forge expansion? Front entrance? | ||
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CDRdude
United States5625 Posts
On February 05 2008 06:19 gwho wrote: also, what is an FE? forwards expansion? Forge expansion? Front entrance? FE means Fast Expand. You might also see the phrase 'FE build'. | ||
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Daigomi
South Africa4316 Posts
On February 05 2008 06:19 gwho wrote: i have a question, though. For baekmagoji, the reasons for the imbalance is supposed to be race specific, as well as geographical. But for why Z > P on baekmagoji is purely geographical, and when i think about it, all of those reasons could be beneficial against terran as well. Fast lurkers? hell yes! and for terrans not having to build a second CC... isn't that true for ever race once again? zerg can get tech fast, toss can get gas units fast....There's no denying the statistics that supports the idea that it's a rockpaperscissors map, but I don't know if the complete reason for it can explained by what you've written for that map alone. very insightful, and written easily. great job. i enjoyed reading it =) also, what is an FE? forwards expansion? Forge expansion? Front entrance? gwho, just to comment on what you said. Yes, these advantages are applicable to all races, but as I said at the outset of the article, I will simply analyze the strategies that do work on the maps, and show why they work. There are too many potential strategies for me to do an analysis of the map itself, so I rather put time into analyzing why the strategies that work do work. As for your statement on fast lurkers vs Terran- they're fairly pointless against a metal build. Goliath and Tank range minimizes the splash damage done by lurkers, which means that the lurkers become very expensive medium damage units without any special advantages. Furthermore, Terran not having to build a second command center is not true for all the races. You'll notice that I mention that specifically in the TvZ matchup, and the reason for this is because Zerg still needs to build hatcheries in order to get its unit production up. Thus the double gas and extra resources offer a greater advantage to the Terran than it does to the Zerg. If you look at the article you'll see that I state specifically that in the TvP matchup, Protoss getting double gas quickly gives them a greater advantage than it gives Terran. This is because the double gas, combined with Terran's inabillity to push, allows the Protoss player to comfortably get Arbiters early in the game. As for the geography of the map- it does give a race specific advantages in certain matchups but not in others. The ability to flank is much more important for Protoss in a PvT than in a PvZ, thus a map that allows easy flanks will help Protoss more in the TvP matchup than in the PvZ matchup. So no, advantages can not simply be carried over from one matchup to the next. While it is true that certain things help all races (lots of minerals), to look at imbalances in a map you need to look at which race is given the greatest advantage by something. Thanks for the comment  | ||
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arbiter_md
Moldova1219 Posts
I don't understand why don't they use in MSL/OSL the balanced maps. At the quick look I've selected some of the most balanced maps. Here they are: Sin Peaks of Baekdu Tau Cross Blitz X Arcadia 2 It would be much better if they would use three of old tested maps, and forth - some new, but already proved to be a good map. Or if they want more innovation in games they could use two new maps, but the other two should be balanced so that there's some fair play in all this stuff. | ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
There are a handful of maps which get skewed by shitty players getting trounced by far superior gamers which lead to imbalances arises. One such map (imo) is Baekmagoji. Protoss is strong against all races in Baek, its just that there are a lot of games there that have subpar protosses losing to much better zerg opponents (e.g. nal_ra and reach  ) this is similar to the nemesis issue where T>P statistically, but P>T in reality. Blue Storm is often credited as a highly balanced map by progamers. They say it generally gives good winning opportunity to the better player, and im inclined to agree. The reason why Zerg's are doing so well (imo) is not because of the features you pointed out, but it is the brainless methodical terran rookies which go out fashioning their newest FE build and get raped by smarter Zerg opponents. Same goes for protoss (who just love their beesuits). As Bisu vs Jaedong showed us, its not the imbalance that won Jaedong the game, it was his superior late game management - this game reveals far more about the map than a bunch of games played by players with varying levels of skill. Un'Goro poses its own set of problems PvT, some of which you touched on. The center of the map does give the map a terran edge over protoss, but not that much. Correct me if i'm wrong, but Terrans generally go 2base -> push out and then take third; very similar to luna style. Essentially this map plays like a shorter rush distance luna with a buildable center ground. But the center ground is alter drastically altered to narrow the center. The small choke to the nat is very easy to defend for Terran, and the ground is very nice to push out on, as at many points a flank is impossible. This restricts protoss to shuttle-based play; which hasn't existed for a long time now. Either that or some serious arb tech haha. I think one reason why no more protoss were sent out is that the adjustments required to PvT on this map are so extreme that its just not worth it. Better to practice on the more protoss favoured maps and use a more moden PvT style than revert to an outdated style. | ||
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Daigomi
South Africa4316 Posts
While this doesn't prove that the maps are imbalanced as in the other race does not have a chance, it does point to a higher difficulty in winning on that specific map. Once again, I agree with you on Baekmagoji that it was generally weaker Protoss players that skewed the stats in the direction of Zerg, but as I said at the outset of the article my purpose was to find out what made the strategies that work, work. So yes, I think that some of the losses ZvP on Baekmagoji is because of weaker P players being played, but the purpose of the article was to see how they got beaten and why it worked on the map, as much as to say that the map was imbalanced. On Blue Storm I disagree with you though. Blue Storm clearly favours Zerg in ZvT in my opinion, and it's not just novice rookies being beaten on it. From the top of my head now I can think of Sea, Xellos and Midas that got beaten on the map, and if you look at the games they lost on there you'll see certain elements come through very strongly, especially the defense over the chasm is a key element in early game ZvT on the map. Another game that looks at the ledge abuse was Kwanro vs Canata on Blue Storm from the MSL. I was seriously laughing out loud that game at how annoying Kwanro was being to poor Canata. You can also look at Xellos vs Luxury from the OSL, and see how Xellos completely over-compensates with his protection. As to Un'goro, as you say, the middle of the map advantage is very slight, and I only mentioned it because it was there. I have, in fact, never seen anyone make use of it. But yes, you're analysis is coinciding with mine, although the point you make about the flanking is an important one that I missed. The middle prevents a flank almost completely. Thanks for the in-depth comment, and although I don't necesarily agree with everything, you raise some important points, and it's always good to have criticism. | ||
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Retsukage
United States1002 Posts
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