EPTOr who knows - maybe she will actually start to like the SHs when she finds out it was Sanji who made the new wedding cake? Long ago, I did post here and made a "call" (it was not very serious) that she would become an ally of the SH crew somehow :D
[Manga] One Piece - Page 1571
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Zexion
Sweden971 Posts
Or who knows - maybe she will actually start to like the SHs when she finds out it was Sanji who made the new wedding cake? Long ago, I did post here and made a "call" (it was not very serious) that she would become an ally of the SH crew somehow :D | ||
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Zambrah
United States7384 Posts
On April 28 2021 07:55 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Eh? I don't think you can call Big Mom, whose first appearance was going on a mad rampage killing her own son for no reason as perfectly consistent. Except for being perfectly mad and chaotic. It's like calling a rapist a nice person because he feeds and looks after stray cats. There's the tiny problem of well, being a rapist. A fairly benevolent dictator Big Mom is not. There's the tiny problem of well, being not benevolent at all. Ah yes, that rampage that she has no ability to properly control herself during is definitely a reflection of her true character as a chaotic madwoman. If you look at the citizenry of her territory on Whole Cake Island and such they clearly seem to be pretty cool with their lives. As mentioned above Big Mom is delusionally trying to create some weird happy family situation because of her past trauma. If she was just a crazy evil Kaido tyrant then she would be forcefully soul tithing her populace instead of them willingly giving it up to live in her weird little utopian nightmarescape. She’s obviously not fucking Queen Goody Goody, but shes also not a completely vile psychopath incapable of gratitude or some morality even if it may be fucked. | ||
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Archeon
3260 Posts
But yes IF you ignore that she occasionally goes on murder sprees killing even her family and IF you ignore that she sucks the soul out of her citizens and IF you ignore that trying to make a deal with her might get you and all your family members killed after establishing seemingly amicable relationships and IF you ignore that she's likely to kill you if you get in her way or just if it could be beneficial for her then she occasionally shows morals. I feel that there are a few too many ifs to declare her a benevolent dictator especially when benevolent rulers exist in OP. | ||
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Hyperbola
United States2544 Posts
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Zambrah
United States7384 Posts
On April 29 2021 21:06 Archeon wrote: ^I mean yes, rampaging and randomly killing people makes you a vile psychopath. If she doesn't rampage she has some morals, but even when she isn't Mr. Hide her Dr. Jackal isn't exactly nice. The biggest difference to Kaido is that she tries to build an actual kingdom while Kaido couldn't give less of a fuck. But yes IF you ignore that she occasionally goes on murder sprees killing even her family and IF you ignore that she sucks the soul out of her citizens and IF you ignore that trying to make a deal with her might get you and all your family members killed after establishing seemingly amicable relationships and IF you ignore that she's likely to kill you if you get in her way or just if it could be beneficial for her then she occasionally shows morals. I feel that there are a few too many ifs to declare her a benevolent dictator especially when benevolent rulers exist in OP. She has no real control over the rampaging is my point, if Luffy went on violent sprees from meat deprivation that’s hardly reflective of his character. Her citizenry seem plenty happy, Totto Land is arguably a better way to live than most other places under World Government control, soul tithing her population does suck and she shouldn’t but Totto Land seems pretty idyllic given how shitty One Pieces world can be to normal people. Vinsmokes didn’t really have an amicable relationship though, that’s just a political marriage, that entire relationship was based on power, either side basically just wanting to use the other. Her relationship with the town in Wano was different because there was no political gain to helping her, they did it out of legitimate kindness which is what she’s responding to. If she doesn’t kill Tama despite her allegiance to Luffy that’s also evidence she isn’t just some crazy convenience murderer, she’s still a brutal convenience murderer but she has some lines even if those lines don’t make her a good person proper at all. Also the benevolent rulers in One Piece are never dictators. Big Mom isn’t a benevolent ruler, she’s a benevolent dictator trying to create a weird racial harmony/collection . She’s still a nasty dictator but she doesn’t rule like an immoral monster like Orochi who is basically the opposite side of the dictator spectrum, she does protect her citizenry and has fashioned a society for them where they’re safe and happy, again, still kinda shitty since she’s a dictator, but she’s generally a pretty damn benevolent one given we’re talking about One Piece | ||
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Archeon
3260 Posts
On April 29 2021 22:46 Zambrah wrote: She has no real control over the rampaging is my point, if Luffy went on violent sprees from meat deprivation that’s hardly reflective of his character. Her citizenry seem plenty happy, Totto Land is arguably a better way to live than most other places under World Government control, soul tithing her population does suck and she shouldn’t but Totto Land seems pretty idyllic given how shitty One Pieces world can be to normal people. Vinsmokes didn’t really have an amicable relationship though, that’s just a political marriage, that entire relationship was based on power, either side basically just wanting to use the other. Her relationship with the town in Wano was different because there was no political gain to helping her, they did it out of legitimate kindness which is what she’s responding to. If she doesn’t kill Tama despite her allegiance to Luffy that’s also evidence she isn’t just some crazy convenience murderer, she’s still a brutal convenience murderer but she has some lines even if those lines don’t make her a good person proper at all. Also the benevolent rulers in One Piece are never dictators. Big Mom isn’t a benevolent ruler, she’s a benevolent dictator trying to create a weird racial harmony/collection . She’s still a nasty dictator but she doesn’t rule like an immoral monster like Orochi who is basically the opposite side of the dictator spectrum, she does protect her citizenry and has fashioned a society for them where they’re safe and happy, again, still kinda shitty since she’s a dictator, but she’s generally a pretty damn benevolent one given we’re talking about One Piece Confirming a political marriage means forming an amicable relationship, that was 99% of what political marriages were about. I get that BM didn't have a personal relationship to the Vinsmokes, but she made a deal and tried to use it to exterminate them without previous slight. That's not the act of a person who falls anywhere near the good spectrum. If Luffy had psychotic attacks where he kills and eats his crew we'd see Luffy in a very different light, especially if Luffy doesn't confront this issue. I get what you're saying, BM country isn't the worst and it's far better off than Wano, it even has something resembling laws, but you have to ignore a lot of shit not to put BM in the chaotic evil corner. The people living in her country rightfully fear her even if she isn't as intentionally malevolent as Orochi, because she is petty and easily incited even if we ignore that she occasionally runs amok. Also for someone who is supposedly benevolent I don't ever get the feeling that she really cares about her people. She wants to be a legitimate queen and needs a legitimate country for that, but would she put protecting random citizens over smashing enemies who slight her? I strongly doubt it. | ||
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Hyperbola
United States2544 Posts
Honestly, Totto land sounds a lot like the USA, with our independent states and top-tier military. This level of sophistication puts even the World Government to shame, much less the other Yonko. At best, the marines are able to patrol some of the ocean and take out the occasional pirate but, as we've seen, countries are attacked and overthrown all the time and have to maintain their own militaries and can't rely on the marines to do much of anything. Not so with Big Mom. If you enter her empire without prior warning you will be blown to smithereens. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
Besides what I said is that she is a hypocrite. She is a pirate, and before she was a Yonko, she purposefully killed plenty of civilians and ruined the lives of now homeless/orphans/dead children. The standards she speaks of are standards she does not adhere to hereself, hence hypocrite. She should had been depicted as being angry that the town that showed her hospitality was destroyed, not because of some non-existent standard she never adhered to. Though the current depiction shows her as plain crazy, which is valid. Wouldn't be suprised if at the end of this arc she ends up fighting against her three oldest children who end up ruling over Tottoland and the big mom pirates. | ||
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Zambrah
United States7384 Posts
On April 30 2021 01:11 Archeon wrote: Confirming a political marriage means forming an amicable relationship, that was 99% of what political marriages were about. I get that BM didn't have a personal relationship to the Vinsmokes, but she made a deal and tried to use it to exterminate them without previous slight. That's not the act of a person who falls anywhere near the good spectrum. If Luffy had psychotic attacks where he kills and eats his crew we'd see Luffy in a very different light, especially if Luffy doesn't confront this issue. I get what you're saying, BM country isn't the worst and it's far better off than Wano, it even has something resembling laws, but you have to ignore a lot of shit not to put BM in the chaotic evil corner. The people living in her country rightfully fear her even if she isn't as intentionally malevolent as Orochi, because she is petty and easily incited even if we ignore that she occasionally runs amok. Also for someone who is supposedly benevolent I don't ever get the feeling that she really cares about her people. She wants to be a legitimate queen and needs a legitimate country for that, but would she put protecting random citizens over smashing enemies who slight her? I strongly doubt it. Theres not a ton of real friendship in the political marriage sphere to my knowledge, especially in this context, theyre definitely not meaning to be like, full on enemies, but its hard to say that a political marriage entails actual friendship as opposed to political gains, of which friendship may be one. Whatever friendship Judge may have sought though was entirely in order to leverage for military power, thats not REALLY friendship in the One Piece way of it, especially when you look at the Wano Town vs. the Vinsmokes, they're night and day and illustrate what it really means to be actually friendly and politically convenient with friendliness. Would you say Luffy as a person is a chaotic psychopath who doesn't have any morals or what have you if he had those fits though? Like, can you really blame a person who has some sort of disorder for what they do when they're completely out of their right mind? Its not like its a reflection of their character, its something they dont have real control over. I mean, Big Mom probably isnt going to wantonly murder her family and citizenry and break shit in her own territory of her own free will, she does that when she goes on hunger rampages because she has no self control. If Luffy went periodically berserk from starvation and tried to attack his crew would you really blame that on a lack of character? Also, as Hyperbola says, for One Piece, Totto Land is legitimately a sort of paradise, societally stable, protected from pirates (which are an often violent murderous scourge, which we can often forget seeing as most pirates we follow like Luffy and Law are good dudes, though Eustass initially had the highest Supernova bounty for the civilian casualties he incurred) I mean if you lived in the world of One Piece is it REALLY that bad a deal to trade some of your soul periodically for security, and a legitimately good life? Big Mom provides that, and while I emphasize again she is a brutal dictator, shes done kind of a solid job organizing her weird utopian little society, shes definitely more stable than say, King Riku's kingdom where Oops I Got Couped And Shits Upside Down Now And The Country Is Owned By A Psychopathic String Nut | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
If Rox's crew wanted to do the same to Totto he could have. I think that is even ever Doflamingo's motto basically was: Only the strong get a say. | ||
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Archeon
3260 Posts
On May 01 2021 22:03 Zambrah wrote: Theres not a ton of real friendship in the political marriage sphere to my knowledge, especially in this context, theyre definitely not meaning to be like, full on enemies, but its hard to say that a political marriage entails actual friendship as opposed to political gains, of which friendship may be one. Whatever friendship Judge may have sought though was entirely in order to leverage for military power, thats not REALLY friendship in the One Piece way of it, especially when you look at the Wano Town vs. the Vinsmokes, they're night and day and illustrate what it really means to be actually friendly and politically convenient with friendliness. Would you say Luffy as a person is a chaotic psychopath who doesn't have any morals or what have you if he had those fits though? Like, can you really blame a person who has some sort of disorder for what they do when they're completely out of their right mind? Its not like its a reflection of their character, its something they dont have real control over. I mean, Big Mom probably isnt going to wantonly murder her family and citizenry and break shit in her own territory of her own free will, she does that when she goes on hunger rampages because she has no self control. If Luffy went periodically berserk from starvation and tried to attack his crew would you really blame that on a lack of character? Also, as Hyperbola says, for One Piece, Totto Land is legitimately a sort of paradise, societally stable, protected from pirates (which are an often violent murderous scourge, which we can often forget seeing as most pirates we follow like Luffy and Law are good dudes, though Eustass initially had the highest Supernova bounty for the civilian casualties he incurred) I mean if you lived in the world of One Piece is it REALLY that bad a deal to trade some of your soul periodically for security, and a legitimately good life? Big Mom provides that, and while I emphasize again she is a brutal dictator, shes done kind of a solid job organizing her weird utopian little society, shes definitely more stable than say, King Riku's kingdom where Oops I Got Couped And Shits Upside Down Now And The Country Is Owned By A Psychopathic String Nut I get what you're saying, her country isn't the worst place to be if you don't get into her way. And I'd probably define a benevolent dictator as someone who clings to power, but enforces laws that help the citizens, which roughly fits what we're seeing from Totto Land. But that totally ignores that BM is extremely moody and dangerous and I feel that you ignore the bad parts quite a bit. You have no means to verify that she is your friend and you aren't safe from her if she is. BM might rationalize that killing you brings her advantages or simply get a psychotic attack and kill you. BM seeks worship by others and threatens other countries into high tributes. BM might grow tired of Totto Land or feel slighted and destroy it, because that's how she is. You can always assume that flaws stem from mental illness. Maybe Kaido is clinically depressed and BB is just a sociopath who is unable to feel empathy as portrayed by his betrayal. Maybe BM is a schizophrenic, narcissist sociopath with intermittent explosive disorder leading to violent attacks triggered by a previous trauma and originally was a good girl. But she's been like this for decades from what we know and you can't simply call all her bad deeds a result of psychosis and her shimmers of benevolence her true character if she doesn't even try to tackle these issues and does a lot of bad shit even outside of her fits. I think you are undervaluing that people can form normal relationships or affections and still be terrible to others. On a side note trying to kill people that try to form amicable relationships with you does affect your citizens quite a bit, because it politically isolates you. I know that this is OP and Kaido apparently didn't care, but this is a strong form of betrayal and breach of trust. And I get that alliances aren't friendship, but for a head of state these should be at least equally important. | ||
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LennX
4560 Posts
And will we get to see Nami fighting for real? | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8764 Posts
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Archeon
3260 Posts
I mind the Samurai actually less when they don't act as a group, they aren't that bad as singular characters, they are just too many. | ||
Olli
Austria24422 Posts
Very different to Kaido, whose only miniscule redeeming moments are admitting that he wasn't happy with how they fooled Oden to defeat him, and showing some respect to people that put up a fight against him. He's going down in this arc, there's no redemption for him. But Big Mom is more complex as a character. Also, remember how much talk of betrayal among pirates there's been in this arc. Perospero seemed to dislike the idea of their alliance when he heard about it, they initially came to Wano ready to fight Kaido's crew. And now Big Mom is angry at Kaido's crew. She's already away from the main fight between Luffy and Kaido, so I could easily see her just leave the island with her crew when they get there. On another, somewhat related note: can anyone else imagine that Kaido's goal to start a huge war, and then his alliance with Big Mom, have to do with trying to fight the World Government? The Rocks pirated were defeated by Roger and Garp defending the world nobles, so it seems attacking them was already a goal of both Big Mom and Kaido under their previous captain. And who else would Kaido start a war with? Shanks' crew is relatively small, Whitebeard is gone, Blackbeard would be a rookie to him. For someone so bored they make attempted suicide their hobby, surely you go as big as possible. Also: alliances are built with common enemies in mind. Who's big enough for Kaido and Big Mom to ally against, other than the World Government? | ||
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Hyperbola
United States2544 Posts
So here's what I'm thinking: Law and Kidd occupy Big Mom in an apparent stalemate while all the other battles finish up. Then, once Kaido goes down, Big Mom realizes that her alliance is basically tarnished and there's no reason to stick around. She decides to maintain a momentary truce and leave with her children. That, or maybe CP0 somehow gets involved and forces her to leave/divert her attention. | ||
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PVJ
Hungary5221 Posts
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Archeon
3260 Posts
Like my expectation is that longer term BM will grab the phoneglyph and run. Her personal vendetta was mostly about putting Luffy in his place and Luffy has shown that he's earned his spot on the table. I doubt they are ever going to be friends (although both are wack enough that you never know) or real allies, but i can definitely see them go back to neutral and BM accepting Luffy as a legitimate contender long term similarly to how Kaido shows a lot of respect for him. Then again she might get pissed about her alliance of terror getting mopped by the SHs, so you never know. | ||
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Hyperbola
United States2544 Posts
On May 01 2021 23:19 cLutZ wrote: That's a bit unsure to Roku. He just got outclassed in power. Seemed like he had a decent set of alliances with some fairly weak kingdoms that were mostly living in peace up to that point. If Rox's crew wanted to do the same to Totto he could have. I think that is even ever Doflamingo's motto basically was: Only the strong get a say. You know, Doflamingo was not wrong. In fact, he has been proven right time and time again throughout the entire series. The only thing that really matters in One Piece is power. As much as Oda might deny it or claim otherwise, literally the only thing keeping society together is personal power which is usually concentrated at the very top in the King/Queen/Admiral. It was Riku's sole imperative, as king, to become the strongest possible fighter that he could have been, and yet he failed to do so and was overthrown by Doflamingo. No matter how kind or thoughtful he was as a ruler, he could not hold his country together without power, and because of his weakness he is indirectly responsible for all the misery that Doflamingo wrought. This is why the WG and Yonko are such a force of stability in the OP world. They hold superhuman strength that is virtually unchallenged and thus a society can form around them. Unfortunately, this type of society naturally gravitates towards a dictatorship since democracies can really only be sustained through incredibly powerful individuals that also decide to act selflessly and don't take control for themselves, like the Marine admirals. And yet now we're seeing a bloodthirsty force of vengeance like Akainu taking over the marines just because he was able to defeat Aokiji in a fight. Just goes to show how any righteous organization in One Piece can and will eventually regress into an oppressive dictatorship over time. Ironically, One Piece provides a more realistic depiction of how societies with superheroes would actually function. Instead of Hulk or Thor fighting crime, they would become warlords and subjugate those around them like Yonko. And while someone strong and selfless like Superman might keep them in line, it's really only a matter of time before another more powerful force returns the world to the status quo. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On May 09 2021 05:26 Hyperbola wrote: You know, Doflamingo was not wrong. In fact, he has been proven right time and time again throughout the entire series. The only thing that really matters in One Piece is power. As much as Oda might deny it or claim otherwise, literally the only thing keeping society together is personal power which is usually concentrated at the very top in the King/Queen/Admiral. It was Riku's sole imperative, as king, to become the strongest possible fighter that he could have been, and yet he failed to do so and was overthrown by Doflamingo. No matter how kind or thoughtful he was as a ruler, he could not hold his country together without power, and because of his weakness he is indirectly responsible for all the misery that Doflamingo wrought. This is why the WG and Yonko are such a force of stability in the OP world. They hold superhuman strength that is virtually unchallenged and thus a society can form around them. Unfortunately, this type of society naturally gravitates towards a dictatorship since democracies can really only be sustained through incredibly powerful individuals that also decide to act selflessly and don't take control for themselves, like the Marine admirals. And yet now we're seeing a bloodthirsty force of vengeance like Akainu taking over the marines just because he was able to defeat Aokiji in a fight. Just goes to show how any righteous organization in One Piece can and will eventually regress into an oppressive dictatorship over time. Ironically, One Piece provides a more realistic depiction of how societies with superheroes would actually function. Instead of Hulk or Thor fighting crime, they would become warlords and subjugate those around them like Yonko. And while someone strong and selfless like Superman might keep them in line, it's really only a matter of time before another more powerful force returns the world to the status quo. Its true, but also a large part of the destabilization of the world is the the WG was corrupt at its foundation and has a huge secret (the OP) that they know about and know they need to conceal. That is why, IMO, they favor the Yonko system, because it keeps the poneglyphs separated, and keeps the Grand Line (particularly new world) very hostile for explorers. Sure, the WG has a lot to fear from Roger and Luffy becoming pirate king, but what about a new Noland the Explorer?! That's even worse, he can explore for the OP, and if the WG acts against him it will cause a Dressrosa level incident. Probably worse even than Dressrosa because the Warlords were more allies that people knew were bad not the WG itself. If the WG wasn't so inherently corrupt I think the marines would be less compromised, and so could fulfill their organizational role more of the time. Garp could have actually accepted an admiral position, you don't lose Aokiji in a literal battle to near death, I doubt the warlord system even has to be established (or if it is, its elevated bounty hunters, who would be more common, instead of elevated pirates). | ||
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