EPT[Manga] Naruto - Page 646
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RiceAgainst
United States1849 Posts
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aTnClouD
Italy2428 Posts
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LimitSEA
Australia9580 Posts
Literally all I took from this chapter. | ||
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Courthead
United States246 Posts
The Edo Tensei can only summon souls from the pure world. The Death Reaper Seal traps souls inside the Shinigami's stomach, which is not the pure world. Thus, summoning the 4 kages would be possible, but one would have to first free them from the Shinigami's stomach. Nothing in the manga has stated that this is undoable. And nobody in the manga is more likely to figure it out than Orochimaru given that (a) he knows more jutsu than anyone else, (b) he does more advanced research than anyone else, (c) he spent 3 years without his arms so he had immense incentive to find out how to get them back. Obviously, an armless Orochimaru couldn't have simply waltzed into the middle of Konoha to do all of this. He barely got out of Konoha alive when he was at full strength and attacking with an army. Plus, it probably took Oro time to conduct this research to figure out what to do. This would also explain why Sasuke knew about it: because he was hanging with Oro at the same time Oro was conducting this research. Anyway, Sasuke defeated him before he had a chance to switch bodies, get healthy, and free his arms from the Shinigami. Also, Sasuke would've had to summon Orochimaru for this, because Orochimaru is the only one who's seen the face of the Shinigami. Thus, Orochimaru would be the only one who knew which mask to choose. When Sasuke first mentioned that he wanted to talk to the ones who knew everything, my first guess was that he was referring to Konoha's village elders (Danzo's teammates). But the Third Hokage is just as sensible a guess, as is the First (who knew Madara personally). So this is once again evidence that Kishi isn't just pulling this out of his ass, and has had this planned at least since Sasuke and Itachi began fighting Kabuto. And the fact that Madara is clearly invincible and stronger than everyone on the planet is a huge hint that the First Hokage will make an appearance. I mean, the only possibilities for his defeat are (a) the First Hokage, (b) some sort of ungodly powerup for Naruto, (c) some combination of badasses like Naruto + Sasuke together, (d) Tobi stabbing Madara in the back unexpectedly, or (e) the Second Hokage coming back and divulging a way to undo Madara's Edo Tensei. And now we have a situation where all of these possibilities are, well, possible. So, long-story short, this is only Deus ex Machina if you haven't been paying attention to anything in the manga. This is actually one of Kishi's most respectable plot developments in a while. It's 100000x better than solving problems by arbitrarily making Naruto stronger. ------- EDIT: Orochimaru's #1 goal is to get Sasuke's body, right? And he's never been able to do that in the past, because he didn't have his arms and he wasn't strong enough. But right now, he has his arms, he has control over the four previous Hokages, and he appears to have healed his stomach wound via his snake rebirth question. So the big question is: Why doesn't Orochimaru take this time to kill Sasuke and take his body? | ||
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On January 31 2013 16:18 Courthead wrote: Sick chapter. This is not Deus ex Machina, btw. This development has been foreshadowed and hinted at basically forever: The Edo Tensei can only summon souls from the pure world. The Death Reaper Seal traps souls inside the Shinigami's stomach, which is not the pure world. Thus, summoning the 4 kages would be possible, but one would have to first free them from the Shinigami's stomach. Nothing in the manga has stated that this is undoable. And nobody in the manga is more likely to figure it out than Orochimaru given that (a) he knows more jutsu than anyone else, (b) he does more advanced research than anyone else, (c) he spent 3 years without his arms so he had immense incentive to find out how to get them back. Obviously, an armless Orochimaru couldn't have simply waltzed into the middle of Konoha to do all of this. He barely got out of Konoha alive when he was at full strength and attacking with an army. Plus, it probably took Oro time to conduct this research to figure out what to do. This would also explain why Sasuke knew about it: because he was hanging with Oro at the same time Oro was conducting this research. Anyway, Sasuke defeated him before he had a chance to switch bodies, get healthy, and free his arms from the Shinigami. Also, Sasuke would've had to summon Orochimaru for this, because Orochimaru is the only one who's seen the face of the Shinigami. Thus, Orochimaru would be the only one who knew which mask to choose. When Sasuke first mentioned that he wanted to talk to the ones who knew everything, my first guess was that he was referring to Konoha's village elders (Danzo's teammates). But the Third Hokage is just as sensible a guess, as is the First (who knew Madara personally). So this is once again evidence that Kishi isn't just pulling this out of his ass, and has had this planned at least since Sasuke and Itachi began fighting Kabuto. And the fact that Madara is clearly invincible and stronger than everyone on the planet is a huge hint that the First Hokage will make an appearance. I mean, the only possibilities for his defeat are (a) the First Hokage, (b) some sort of ungodly powerup for Naruto, (c) some combination of badasses like Naruto + Sasuke together, (d) Tobi stabbing Madara in the back unexpectedly, or (e) the Second Hokage coming back and divulging a way to undo Madara's Edo Tensei. And now we have a situation where all of these possibilities are, well, possible. So, long-story short, this is only Deus ex Machina if you haven't been paying attention to anything in the manga. This is actually one of Kishi's most respectable plot developments in a while. It's 100000x better than solving problems by arbitrarily making Naruto stronger. ------- EDIT: Orochimaru's #1 goal is to get Sasuke's body, right? And he's never been able to do that in the past, because he didn't have his arms and he wasn't strong enough. But right now, he has his arms, he has control over the four previous Hokages, and he appears to have healed his stomach wound via his snake rebirth question. So the big question is: Why doesn't Orochimaru take this time to kill Sasuke and take his body? Good post, I definitely agree. Kinda curious to see if Orochimaru will try anything against Sasuke now that he got his arms back and has control over the 4 kages  | ||
Chexx
Korea (South)11232 Posts
On January 31 2013 17:05 BigFan wrote: Good post, I definitely agree. Kinda curious to see if Orochimaru will try anything against Sasuke now that he got his arms back and has control over the 4 kages because he already switched his body and needs to wait three years?! And I think he has something else planned. | ||
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Emporio
United States3069 Posts
On January 31 2013 16:18 Courthead wrote: Sick chapter. This is not Deus ex Machina, btw. This development has been foreshadowed and hinted at basically forever: The Edo Tensei can only summon souls from the pure world. The Death Reaper Seal traps souls inside the Shinigami's stomach, which is not the pure world. Thus, summoning the 4 kages would be possible, but one would have to first free them from the Shinigami's stomach. Nothing in the manga has stated that this is undoable. And nobody in the manga is more likely to figure it out than Orochimaru given that (a) he knows more jutsu than anyone else, (b) he does more advanced research than anyone else, (c) he spent 3 years without his arms so he had immense incentive to find out how to get them back. Obviously, an armless Orochimaru couldn't have simply waltzed into the middle of Konoha to do all of this. He barely got out of Konoha alive when he was at full strength and attacking with an army. Plus, it probably took Oro time to conduct this research to figure out what to do. This would also explain why Sasuke knew about it: because he was hanging with Oro at the same time Oro was conducting this research. Anyway, Sasuke defeated him before he had a chance to switch bodies, get healthy, and free his arms from the Shinigami. Also, Sasuke would've had to summon Orochimaru for this, because Orochimaru is the only one who's seen the face of the Shinigami. Thus, Orochimaru would be the only one who knew which mask to choose. When Sasuke first mentioned that he wanted to talk to the ones who knew everything, my first guess was that he was referring to Konoha's village elders (Danzo's teammates). But the Third Hokage is just as sensible a guess, as is the First (who knew Madara personally). So this is once again evidence that Kishi isn't just pulling this out of his ass, and has had this planned at least since Sasuke and Itachi began fighting Kabuto. And the fact that Madara is clearly invincible and stronger than everyone on the planet is a huge hint that the First Hokage will make an appearance. I mean, the only possibilities for his defeat are (a) the First Hokage, (b) some sort of ungodly powerup for Naruto, (c) some combination of badasses like Naruto + Sasuke together, (d) Tobi stabbing Madara in the back unexpectedly, or (e) the Second Hokage coming back and divulging a way to undo Madara's Edo Tensei. And now we have a situation where all of these possibilities are, well, possible. So, long-story short, this is only Deus ex Machina if you haven't been paying attention to anything in the manga. This is actually one of Kishi's most respectable plot developments in a while. It's 100000x better than solving problems by arbitrarily making Naruto stronger. ------- EDIT: Orochimaru's #1 goal is to get Sasuke's body, right? And he's never been able to do that in the past, because he didn't have his arms and he wasn't strong enough. But right now, he has his arms, he has control over the four previous Hokages, and he appears to have healed his stomach wound via his snake rebirth question. So the big question is: Why doesn't Orochimaru take this time to kill Sasuke and take his body? I disagree partially because there's never been any hinting that the Shinigami seal was breakable. Hell, only two characters are even known to even know how to do it and it's implied they didn't pass it down to anyone else meaning the technique was lost with them. Of course, lots of other seals we thought were unbreakable have been started to get broken (Naruto's Kyuubi seal, Edo tensai zombies freeing themselves, Orochimaru from death itself) so there's no reason why the Shinigami seal isn't breakable. But it's completely untrue to say it's been foreshadowed and hinted at. At best, no one has ever outright said it's impossible or that certain aspect of it were impossible. Just because the story allows a development to happen without contradiction to other parts of the story doesn't mean it was foreshadowed and hinted at; it just means it's allowed to happen. The whole mask thing too, that came out of nowhere as well. Sure, the Uzumaki's were known for their use of seals, but the fact that they have a house full of masks that allow them to summon the seal bearers themselves? Completely out of left field. I won't call it a dues ex machina, because it's not blatantly creating a solution out of nowhere. But it's definitely close to that line. | ||
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multiversed
United States233 Posts
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Stingart
122 Posts
On January 31 2013 16:18 Courthead wrote: Sick chapter. This is not Deus ex Machina, btw. This development has been foreshadowed and hinted at basically forever: EDIT: Orochimaru's #1 goal is to get Sasuke's body, right? No. Orochimaru's goal in life is to understand everything. Learn every Jutsu. Orochimaru sees achieving an Uchiha's body as a means to his end. If there was a way for Orochimaru to learn every Jutsu without the body of an Uchiha then he would have no interest in it anymore. It also makes sense why Orochimaru can do what he's capable of doing, he has spend his entire life with and without his arms researching and learning. If anybody knows a way to do it, Orochimaru is the one. He is the Mad Scientist of Naruto. | ||
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imBLIND
United States2626 Posts
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Chaggi
Korea (South)1936 Posts
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AsnSensation
Germany24009 Posts
Of course it's easy to say that it was "obvious" that the 4 hokages had the be revived now that Oro actually did it. I can't speak for everyone obviously but I'm pretty sure the majority of the readers were sure that the Hokages would not be edo tensei'd and didn't notice the apparently obvious implications that they are coming back you claim there to be. They way I see it is that 1. Kabuto said those 4 cannot be ressurected because they were sealed in the shinigami belly. 2. Oro magically finds a way to do it. Shounen Mangas usually don't provide explainations for certain things only to be contradicted a few chapters later. For me that's just bad writing and bad foresight in Kishi's part who probably didn't even plan to bring them back at that point. One thing I agree with you though is that this is one of the most logical plot developments after Kishi decided to bring back Oro with super secret knowledge and Give Madara godlike immortality status who can 1 vs 100.000 the entire allied army. Imo Kishi's decision to utilize Edo Tensei may have provided lots of fanservice but also opened up space for plotholes and lots of bullshit asspull claims. | ||
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LaughingTulkas
United States1107 Posts
On January 31 2013 21:09 Stingart wrote: No. Orochimaru's goal in life is to understand everything. Learn every Jutsu. Orochimaru sees achieving an Uchiha's body as a means to his end. If there was a way for Orochimaru to learn every Jutsu without the body of an Uchiha then he would have no interest in it anymore. It also makes sense why Orochimaru can do what he's capable of doing, he has spend his entire life with and without his arms researching and learning. If anybody knows a way to do it, Orochimaru is the one. He is the Mad Scientist of Naruto. Short term vs. Long term goal here. Knowing all Jutsu is his long term goal, and in order to accomplish this, an Uchiha body is his #1 short term goal, so I think you are both correct really. | ||
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Darkren
Canada1841 Posts
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SamsungStar
United States912 Posts
But then Shippuuden happened, and I guess the theme for this arc was supposed to be about how the pursuit of power without morals is evil. Or how the desire to protect loved ones trumps all. Or how cynicism makes you evil. Oh who the hell knows anymore. At this point, Naruto is such a clusterfuck, any semblance of meaning beyond "good fights" has gone out the window. Except there aren't even "good fights" nowadays. There are just strange plot power-ups leading into more plot power-ups. | ||
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Forikorder
Canada8840 Posts
On January 31 2013 22:28 imBLIND wrote: Orochimaru has to backstab sasuke right now...calling it. he cant take sasukes body for 3 years no reason to backstab him yet | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
On February 01 2013 01:14 Forikorder wrote: he cant take sasukes body for 3 years no reason to backstab him yet lol didn't think of that one. That's actually true | ||
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EchoZ
Japan5041 Posts
On January 31 2013 23:53 Darkren wrote: God this manga has gone to shit for so long but i cannot stop reading i must know the ending.................. Likewise. | ||
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KalWarkov
Germany4126 Posts
nothing makes sense anymore. foes become friends in about 3 chapters or work together. naruto gets from noob to god in 4 chapters. give us a fast ending to all that mess... | ||
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17Sphynx17
580 Posts
Doubt the story would go there but there is potential. Also, i wonder when kabuto did his cells and bloodlines infusion, did he manage to infuse uchiha and hahirama based blood into his system? Orochimaru had the dna in stock so im just curious. Cheers! | ||
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