In a time of great plague, an obscure monk of dark inclinations, one Rotund'jere, found himself promoted to the rank of Cardinal by the swift death of all his superiors. While others of the order went out to succor the ill, the newly ordained cardinal secluded himself within the Cathedral of Rumusque, busily scheming to acquire the property of dying nobles, promising them spiritual rewards if they signed over their terrestrial domains. As the plague receded to a few stubborn pockets, his behavior came to the attention of the greater order, which found him guilty of heresy and sentenced him to serve in the plague ward, ensorcelled with spells that would ensure him a slow and lingering illness. But they had not counted on his natural immunity. Rotund'jere caught the pox, but instead of dying, found it feeding his power, transforming him into a veritable plague-mage, a Pope of Pestilence. Proclaiming himself Necrophos, he travels the world, spreading plague wherever he goes, and growing in terrible power with every village his pestilential presence obliterates.
Necrophos Necrophos discussion! This hero is on of my definite favorites, and recently has been getting a ton of buffs pushing him into annoying territory.
My build: Max Death Pulse and Sadist with an early value point in Hearstopper Aura. Nearly any boot works well on this hero. Treads, Phase, Arcane, you name it. Tranquil is just bad though. Rest of the items are Mek > Aghs > Scythe/Shivas/Atos.
6.82 buffs:
Reaper's Scythe added respawn time penalty from 30% to a constant 30 seconds
Heartstopper Aura is now negative regeneration instead of HP Removal
Treads are absolutely the choice. Toggle treads with sadist regen to get more out of the ability, and to get more out of heal bombs for less mana, etc. Aghs is definitely a lategame choice. Force is also super good since ur very low mobility and ur Q requires you to be in the middle of stuff.
Ended up going Mek/Atos/Shivas in my last game. ASU is overrated until very late and the stats it gives aren't good enough to rush it over Atos/Force/Shivas. He's surprisingly tanky though and can easily 1v5 the enemy team if you're farmed enough. No team required at all.
On May 15 2014 05:26 Sn0_Man wrote: Yeah but buying mek + pipe makes you too important to your team and u can just get initiated on and die and then lose the fight.
BKB is as it always is: if u need it buy it.
You had a long post a year ago about a necrolyte carrybuild, i thought in SQSA. I allways used that post as a guideline in the start, you could/should quote yourself, if you think its still viable.
On May 15 2014 05:26 Sn0_Man wrote: Yeah but buying mek + pipe makes you too important to your team and u can just get initiated on and die and then lose the fight.
BKB is as it always is: if u need it buy it.
You had a long post a year ago about a necrolyte carrybuild, i thought in SQSA. I allways used that post as a guideline in the start, you could/should quote yourself, if you think its still viable.
On December 04 2013 05:53 Sn0_Man wrote: holy shit no lol.
BKB/Sheep/Shivas/Eblade/Aghs/Travs
Aghs optional depending on how many cores the enemy have. If you prefer, get refresher. Mek is purchased earler but sold when you need the slot. Force staff as well although you probably still need forces on teammates since you are so low mobility.
E: oh yeah. You need a heart. Probably over the Eblade most games. Depends on the game.
So BKB/Sheep/Shivas/Heart/Travs + one of (Refresher, Aghs, Eblade) depending on what is most important for you.
Interesting, because almost none of the highly rated published builds that ive seen look like that. I dont think refresher is really useful, but it will take some testing. Etheral doesnt seem like the right item, since its primarily an agility stat item, and your not looking to gank or fight 1v1 with anyone but more provide tankyness and utility for long term fights on your team. Seems more suited to survivability with damage output heros. Where as necro is already fairly survivable. Sheep is reasonable and is in several of the builds, im always just hesitant to build regen based items when you already have a few and a passive.
Sheep is sheep it needs no justification. Its absolutely NOT a "regen based" item its a castable hex. It just so happens to also be an amazing farm (aka regen) item since necrolyte can chew through mana at an incredible rate even with max sadist.
BKB is because all you need is to survive and BKB is one of the best survivability items in the game. There are arguments for pipe since necrolyte doesn't REALLY need to avoid being stunned etc (since all you need is to be able to cast your spells intermittently) but any kind of silence wrecks you and due to necro's awful mobility, avoiding slows/stuns is key to keeping your heal bomb and aura hitting as many targets as possible.
Heart is simply the best tank item in the game, non negotiable.
Shivas is amazing, its a bunch of survivability as well as a nice nuke and it provides another incredibly obnoxious aura for your enemies to deal with, cementing your teamfight presence. Plus mana pool never hurts on a hero whose ult is like 500 mana.
Travs are travs. Best mobility, part of essentially ever "6-slot" build.
The spare slot goes to one of: Refresher: when you need to ult 2 different people really badly. Bonus is that it refreshes sheep and shivas both of which are awesome. E-Blade: when you need a ghost sceptre for survivability, when you need to be able to ghost sceptre an enemy carry or an ally, and especially when you need to be able to 1v1 enemy heroes (Sheep -> hit hit hit -> eblade + shivas + death pulse -> ult = GG practically anybody). Ignore the Agi part, it is simply a way to win any 1v1 fight ever, plus utility for physical immunity for allies/self and disarm enemies. Aghs: well duh. When there is 1 enemy core that you care about, and nothing else. Period.
Everything else is shit tier. In game guides are coincidentally universally shit tier. And besides, in game guides really don't have anything to do with 6-slot theory crafting.
Please note that i'm 6-slot theory crafting here, not necessarily advocating a smooth build-up build that would work in a game. Items like Bloodstone are bad but have situational uses where you need 1 item that both tanks up and fixes your mana regen. Its a timing push kind of item since you don't need that much regen in general but right when bloodstone hits you are tanky and can fight almost forever so you can push with it. AC is bad forget anybody who ever suggests it you don't do any phys dmg. Mek is core but you sell it when you hit 6slot. Drums are fun and can be good but you sell them when you hit 6slot. Force is core for sure but again I think you often sell it once your teammates can provide. Blink is the same as force but more situational. Euls is situationally OK as a mana regen item with some niche use but its simply not good enough. Atos is quite reasonable except you have to be using the active on enemy heroes, which implies teamfights, which is not where atos is good. Not a 6slot item regardless.
Its a discussion about the "ideal 6slot" not really how to smoothly itemize for any given game, especially since 1st and 2nd items are usually the most important to a game's outcome. However, I do briefly address proper itemization at the bottom.
It's pretty legit but you want it after a major int item and its pretty underwhelming if you don't need the ghost form (aka you only want it once their carry is farmed). So its luxury but really good.
On May 15 2014 05:26 Sn0_Man wrote: Yeah but buying mek + pipe makes you too important to your team and u can just get initiated on and die and then lose the fight.
BKB is as it always is: if u need it buy it.
You had a long post a year ago about a necrolyte carrybuild, i thought in SQSA. I allways used that post as a guideline in the start, you could/should quote yourself, if you think its still viable.
On December 04 2013 05:53 Sn0_Man wrote: holy shit no lol.
BKB/Sheep/Shivas/Eblade/Aghs/Travs
Aghs optional depending on how many cores the enemy have. If you prefer, get refresher. Mek is purchased earler but sold when you need the slot. Force staff as well although you probably still need forces on teammates since you are so low mobility.
E: oh yeah. You need a heart. Probably over the Eblade most games. Depends on the game.
So BKB/Sheep/Shivas/Heart/Travs + one of (Refresher, Aghs, Eblade) depending on what is most important for you.
Interesting, because almost none of the highly rated published builds that ive seen look like that. I dont think refresher is really useful, but it will take some testing. Etheral doesnt seem like the right item, since its primarily an agility stat item, and your not looking to gank or fight 1v1 with anyone but more provide tankyness and utility for long term fights on your team. Seems more suited to survivability with damage output heros. Where as necro is already fairly survivable. Sheep is reasonable and is in several of the builds, im always just hesitant to build regen based items when you already have a few and a passive.
Sheep is sheep it needs no justification. Its absolutely NOT a "regen based" item its a castable hex. It just so happens to also be an amazing farm (aka regen) item since necrolyte can chew through mana at an incredible rate even with max sadist.
BKB is because all you need is to survive and BKB is one of the best survivability items in the game. There are arguments for pipe since necrolyte doesn't REALLY need to avoid being stunned etc (since all you need is to be able to cast your spells intermittently) but any kind of silence wrecks you and due to necro's awful mobility, avoiding slows/stuns is key to keeping your heal bomb and aura hitting as many targets as possible.
Heart is simply the best tank item in the game, non negotiable.
Shivas is amazing, its a bunch of survivability as well as a nice nuke and it provides another incredibly obnoxious aura for your enemies to deal with, cementing your teamfight presence. Plus mana pool never hurts on a hero whose ult is like 500 mana.
Travs are travs. Best mobility, part of essentially ever "6-slot" build.
The spare slot goes to one of: Refresher: when you need to ult 2 different people really badly. Bonus is that it refreshes sheep and shivas both of which are awesome. E-Blade: when you need a ghost sceptre for survivability, when you need to be able to ghost sceptre an enemy carry or an ally, and especially when you need to be able to 1v1 enemy heroes (Sheep -> hit hit hit -> eblade + shivas + death pulse -> ult = GG practically anybody). Ignore the Agi part, it is simply a way to win any 1v1 fight ever, plus utility for physical immunity for allies/self and disarm enemies. Aghs: well duh. When there is 1 enemy core that you care about, and nothing else. Period.
Everything else is shit tier. In game guides are coincidentally universally shit tier. And besides, in game guides really don't have anything to do with 6-slot theory crafting.
Please note that i'm 6-slot theory crafting here, not necessarily advocating a smooth build-up build that would work in a game. Items like Bloodstone are bad but have situational uses where you need 1 item that both tanks up and fixes your mana regen. Its a timing push kind of item since you don't need that much regen in general but right when bloodstone hits you are tanky and can fight almost forever so you can push with it. AC is bad forget anybody who ever suggests it you don't do any phys dmg. Mek is core but you sell it when you hit 6slot. Drums are fun and can be good but you sell them when you hit 6slot. Force is core for sure but again I think you often sell it once your teammates can provide. Blink is the same as force but more situational. Euls is situationally OK as a mana regen item with some niche use but its simply not good enough. Atos is quite reasonable except you have to be using the active on enemy heroes, which implies teamfights, which is not where atos is good. Not a 6slot item regardless.
Its a discussion about the "ideal 6slot" not really how to smoothly itemize for any given game, especially since 1st and 2nd items are usually the most important to a game's outcome. However, I do briefly address proper itemization at the bottom.
I guess U know that better then i do, but i thought the post was worth a quote in this thread as it gives info about multiple itemschoices, yes! Each time i played necro i used this post as a guideline for itemchoices/builds etc.
On May 15 2014 04:50 Hagen0 wrote: Why aghs so early? I feel it is a lategame item. Granted, the stats on it are very fitting for Necro.
In matchmaking I tend to play with allies that are too scared to push... so I just go aghs earlier than normal and it prevents the enemy from rage buying back, and at the same time my allies won't be scared to finally take down mid.
Early aghs without some kind of mobility is not very good. Even an early bloodstone would be much better. But normally ppl just go mek fs/blink into aghs/sheep/bloodstone etc. Heroes pretty strong at stomping pubs, not much fun to play though.
Getting phase dagon 5 ethblade and lothars is so fun. ganks galore but minimal teamfight presence. I hate laning against necro though. Heartstopper so annoying.
On May 15 2014 06:20 NeoRussia wrote: Thoughts on eblade? I haven't seen many successful necrophos players but the ones that were bought this item. Also, skadi or heart?
If you want eblade you probably need a dagon 1 first. A really fun pub build if you're stomping is shadowblade -> dagon 1 -> ethereal blade -> finish dagon.
Realistically, things like shiva's and heart are higher priority since the majority of your usefulness comes from just being alive.
On May 15 2014 06:20 NeoRussia wrote: Thoughts on eblade? I haven't seen many successful necrophos players but the ones that were bought this item. Also, skadi or heart?
If you want eblade you probably need a dagon 1 first. A really fun pub build if you're stomping is shadowblade -> dagon 1 -> ethereal blade -> finish dagon.
Realistically, things like shiva's and heart are higher priority since the majority of your usefulness comes from just being alive.
You do understand that eblade has more to it than just shotgun?
Off-lane is rough because if you get a strong 2v1 or any 3v1 you can't really do anything and the hero is really bad if he cant get early levels/items going. Weak 2v1s are manageable though. Generally if you want a sidelane solo, solo safe lane is more comfortable than solo off.
Necro in pubs is an absolute wrecker, it's almost like cheating. Pubs can't coordinate their burst damage on Necro well at low to mid levels, nor do they usually pick matchups that do well against him.
Stay away from Mekansm on Necro unless your team needs to group up and fight early and there is no other Mek carrier. Necro is a mana-intensive hero (at least before L4 Sadist) and buying a Mek aggravates this problem further. Your first major item should be Aghs and it's doable before 20 mins. In fact, Aghs is core on Necro. You get Aghs because it will allow for better scaling on your ult, therefore better kill certainty. Better kill certainty makes the death timer gets extended easier. The extended death timer is what probably skyrocketed Necro to WR% godhood, in that it gives your team extra timing windows in almost everything. It prevents enemy carries from resuming farm/lane pushing/defending tower and supports from contesting for map control sooner. No-buyback feature is a disgusting comeback mechanic that will allow you to win games that you "aren't supposed to".
Don't play Necro like a tank, because he isn't one. Your STR is crap and you do not have any passive that punishes aggro (e.g. Counter Helix, Return, Kraken shell). Do not buy Bloodstone and attempt to pull off a Jesus Rambo impression every fight. In fact, do not buy Bloodstone at all. Necro only got his reputation as an "unkillable" hero because Bloodstone used to give HP regen based on charges, and it was core on him. Play him like a Dark Seer. Drop spells, run circles around the enemy, stay alive as long as possible.
Be wary if you are playing Necro against fast high-burst heroes such as Storm, TA, PA, especially after they get BKB. Even if you're ahead in the sidelanes, if they get a few kills on you, you will fall behind.
On June 14 2014 21:42 Terrorbladder wrote: Necro in pubs is an absolute wrecker, it's almost like cheating. Pubs can't coordinate their burst damage on Necro well at low to mid levels, nor do they usually pick matchups that do well against him.
Stay away from Mekansm on Necro unless your team needs to group up and fight early and there is no other Mek carrier. Necro is a mana-intensive hero (at least before L4 Sadist) and buying a Mek aggravates this problem further. Your first major item should be Aghs and it's doable before 20 mins. In fact, Aghs is core on Necro. You get Aghs because it will allow for better scaling on your ult, therefore better kill certainty. Better kill certainty makes the death timer gets extended easier. The extended death timer is what probably skyrocketed Necro to WR% godhood, in that it gives your team extra timing windows in almost everything. It prevents enemy carries from resuming farm/lane pushing/defending tower and supports from contesting for map control sooner. No-buyback feature is a disgusting comeback mechanic that will allow you to win games that you "aren't supposed to".
Don't play Necro like a tank, because he isn't one. Your STR is crap and you do not have any passive that punishes aggro (e.g. Counter Helix, Return, Kraken shell). Do not buy Bloodstone and attempt to pull off a Jesus Rambo impression every fight. In fact, do not buy Bloodstone at all. Necro only got his reputation as an "unkillable" hero because Bloodstone used to give HP regen based on charges, and it was core on him. Play him like a Dark Seer. Drop spells, run circles around the enemy, stay alive as long as possible.
Be wary if you are playing Necro against fast high-burst heroes such as Storm, TA, PA, especially after they get BKB. Even if you're ahead in the sidelanes, if they get a few kills on you, you will fall behind.
Uhem, You do understand that dagon will give "higher kill certainty" than aghs until you are trying to kill 4k HP targets? Also, Necro is not tank, but his core spell screams frontliner and not somebody kiting people around ala krob.
On June 14 2014 22:12 Terrorbladder wrote: But Aghs pays off at any range of HP, and it gives raw HP as well, unlike Dagon.
Aghs is not cost effective as damage boost (in fact, it break even cost efficiency wise at approximately 6-7k HP targets according to some math from PD) so saying it pays off at any range of HP is funny. And if you really want raw HP, you just buy vit booster on top of dagon. Suddenly, costs ~400 gold less while giving 80 HP less).
While we are breaking apart that post I'm pretty sure that he does not have mana issues provided you can actually last hit. If you're good at it you will pretty much always have full mana and be able to use mek whenever you need.
Mek is core on him. He is a front line hero who punishes the enemy with constant death pulse. A mek makes him nearly unkillable in the early game skirmishes.
Aghs is definitely not terrible on Necro. Making the enemy carry unable to buyback lategame can straight up win the game. Don't think you should go it as a first item, but it's definitely good as 3rd-4th. Also paired really well with Eblade and Necro benefits a lot from the ghost scepter buff vs enemy carries anyway.
On June 14 2014 22:42 DrPandaPhD wrote: Aghs is definitely not terrible on Necro. Making the enemy carry unable to buyback lategame can straight up win the game. Don't think you should go it as a first item, but it's definitely good as 3rd-4th. Also paired really well with Eblade and Necro benefits a lot from the ghost scepter buff vs enemy carries anyway.
The combination of +30% respawn time and buyback prevention on a carry is game winning after 30 minutes. I feel the combo makes up for the fact Necro doesn't scale as well as comparable safelane carries.
On May 16 2014 23:02 Chewbacca. wrote: Do you guys prefer to play him mid or safelane carry?
I think the ideal situation is for him to be a safelane while having some sort of farming scaleable late game mid. Just finish up your basic items and off you go to clash and push.
On June 24 2014 10:36 Discarder wrote: I just hope people stop treating him as a support. he is a very strong solo offlaner.
I think only retards would consider him a support as he literally offers no support whatsoever besides a heal.. But he doesnt lane well as a solo offlaner, let alone be considered strong..
On June 24 2014 10:36 Discarder wrote: I just hope people stop treating him as a support. he is a very strong solo offlaner.
I think only retards would consider him a support as he literally offers no support whatsoever besides a heal.. But he doesnt lane well as a solo offlaner, let alone be considered strong..
He can be played mid against most melee heroes and some of the weaker ranged ones but he's pretty bad against lane dominators because he's really really weak the early levels and you really want to get some last hits aswell and necros damage and especially animation are not that hot. Safe lane with a good late game mid is probably the best but in some pubs people will call you bad names if you even suggest such thing. I often go phase -> drums -> mek and then decide what's good. Pipe, GS, Shiva and Heart are all good depending what you're facing, im not a big fan of bloodstone myself. Not sure when to get Scepter but it's an ok 3rd-4th item i think.
Necro is my second favorite hero and the most successfull one. I play it like a baby sitter with max hearthstop aura and with mek+tread+wand you have all you need. Remember that sadism works on deny and don't put too much level early on heal because you can't efford the mana cost. I don't like aghs unless you are in a stage of the game where buyback becomes to be vital. Then make sure to survive and keep enemy under the aura, the more you stay in figh more massive damage you deal. If you are snowballing make tarrasque or shiva or radiance.
What's the best time to use his ult? I understand with a lot of health missing, but what are some good percentages? Should you ult early and then focus some burst damage at the target before scythe hits? Thanks
On June 26 2014 00:54 DazzleEnthusiast wrote: What's the best time to use his ult? I understand with a lot of health missing, but what are some good percentages? Should you ult early and then focus some burst damage at the target before scythe hits? Thanks
70% at the minimum tbh.. It has a roughly one second animation, so any higher probably wont net you a kill which you usually need for the sadist regen in the middle of a fight.
On June 26 2014 00:54 DazzleEnthusiast wrote: What's the best time to use his ult? I understand with a lot of health missing, but what are some good percentages? Should you ult early and then focus some burst damage at the target before scythe hits? Thanks
Yeah people in general wait way too long with the ult usage. Taking advantage of the stun and the fact that it takes a second before the scythe hits is essential. If the target is getting focused by your team you can easily use it on a high hp hero. It's even worth it to use the ult just so that the stun sets up a kill by allowing your teammates to catch up. Better that than to save it and miss a kill just because it feels wrong to use it on someone who's high hp.
Im a bit surprised people arent mentioning refresher more on this hero. To me thats a nobrainer 5th/6th slot. By that time (we're talking 40 or 50min into the game or more) buybacks are super important and denying two fucking BBs to the enemy team is retardedly strong. Your priorities to me should be to tank up first (mek, pipe, shiva, heart all viable, maybe even halberd) and then go for Agh->Refresh. No scythe, bloodstone, eth blade or anything else can come close to the utility of double BB denial.
Sounds amazing. I think Scythe is pretty fucking good, though. Something like Arcanes > Mek/Drums > other core item like Halberd or Pipe > Aghs > Sheep > Refresher. I feel like instant disable on anyone with a lower cooldown seems better at that point than buyback denial at massive mana cost and cooldown. It also makes the Refresher's impact more pronounced by the time it's on the field.
I could see an earlier Refresher working out as a 5th item if you're lower on farm and probably won't be able to farm a 6th item. I feel like you should farm OK though with your Q.
Yea, like many other heroes that build lategame refreshers you need your core first. Refresher comes as 5th item when earliest possible (boots, mek, shiva, agh, refresher just as an example of how a build could look). Sometimes/often the game call for you to get another item in between though. But to me, if you have your 6slot planned out, you should just about always go for the agh+refresh as an endgame goal if the game goes on that long.
Shouldn't go Arcanes on Necro, both Phase and Treads are better.
Also if it gets to the point 5-6th item slot then Aghs + Eblade + Refresher is really strong. If you manage to kill 2 heroes wit h your ulti they can't buyback and 5th/6th is pretty lategame so can just win the game. You usually have a ghost scepter as well so it's pretty easy to build up.
Just make casual pb when you need hp/mp early and finish agha after shiva or hex. Phase when you nneed it to contest in your 1v1 lane, treads when you'rebehind and bot when you're uncontested.
Am I the only one who likes veil on necro? I think it's great as long as your team has other strong magic damage sources. Adds tankiness via stats/armor/regen and you can build the null tali early to help with cs in lane. You can build a dagon w/ the null instead if you're stomping too.
On June 29 2014 14:07 Noya wrote: Anything wrong with Soul Ring on this hero?
What purpose would it serve? The regen is unneeded to due him already having sadist. And he isnt mana dependent enough to warrant 900g into a mana item. Should he be played as a non-core then maaaaaaybe theres some logic to it (if you're thinking about it like how Omni uses soul ring), but he should be getting levels and farm fast enough to get past any state where soul ring could be considered a useful item. At lvl 10 or so with max sadist any earlier possible usefulness is gone anyway.
So the idea was to 5 man and roll before we could throw our lead against Spectre, but as you can see that didn't work so well. A few bad fights, but my itemization just felt terrible. I think Shivas was okay, but I had no idea what to get for a third item that would help me survive against their team.
On September 18 2014 06:47 Comeh wrote: I would have 100% gotten a BKB. After that either heart or sheep. Shivas was fine though.
Yeah, in retrospect I agree with this. I ate a lot of Invoker AoE as well as radiance burn. Should probably use the 'what killed you' screen better in the future.
Pipe seems decent as well for the same reasons, but also bad because there's noone on your team that uses all the supportive items you're providing to wreck their faces.
So CLEARLY you should've gone full pub dagon aghas necro this game, laserbeam the Spec into submission, then push in her eternal buybackless death.
Side note - I did not know that Spec's desolate and dispersion are both pure damage (nor that Spec doesn't take the damage she disperses), or that nethertoxin was physical.
Jesus, diffusal blade is physical damage too? What is this world!
On September 18 2014 06:27 LeLoup wrote: Alright, had a game last night where I just completely blanked on what items I should have gone and ended up with a pretty bad build IMO.
So the idea was to 5 man and roll before we could throw our lead against Spectre, but as you can see that didn't work so well. A few bad fights, but my itemization just felt terrible. I think Shivas was okay, but I had no idea what to get for a third item that would help me survive against their team.
Any suggestions?
You spend almost 6k item with bad build up for slow and stats Thats really bad. More stats is fine but all you need is EHP. You don't care about intelligence that much. Sadism and big manapool provided by your int and shivas are generally enough.
In general you don't want to right click with necrolyte. Your main job is stay close to everyone, spam your q as much as possible, be very very careful about your ulti and stay alive as much as possible. I almost always start with mek then shivas. 3rd item is completely game dependant. For example that match looks like a nice Rod of Aui match. You don't have long range initiation at all and slow could help. Not necessary but it is an option. BKB is always nice to have. Heart provides extremely high raw hp (You'll need some armor to make use of it.)
You took 2 different t3 towers from different lanes. With that lineup you must encourage your teammates to get rax asap. After 35-40 minutes your influence on teamfights somewhat diminished. You can prevent buybacks with Aghs upgrade. You should always consider it for a late game upgrade.
Idk, you have nothing on your team that gives consistent damage for necro to keep alive. Tanking up with bkb+heart doesn't do much when it just means you get to stand there and deal no damage while slowly healing your team which also does no damage after their ults are used.
I would honestly have gone all-out dragon aghs refresh eblade and tried to explode two or three heroes while your big teamfight stuff was going down. Maybe if you locked spec out without buyback you'd have a prayer.
Really though I think you were in trouble from the start. 5k is not much of a lead against a radiance spec when you have no real lategame of your own.
We fed a double kill to spectre early on. It was never going to be easy.
However we did have a big enough lead to take the two T3s. Problem is that we got greedy and reengaged in fights after our teamfight (Wards/Golem) was down.
Also their Rubick and Dazzle were absurd. Stole SS wards and Golems all game. Dazzle managed to get Grave off far too often.
Heart/BKB and better positioning in teamfights would have won us the game. Even with the full defensive build I managed to get 20k hero damage and that was while I got killed instantly in a few fights.
The game itself isn't the issue, it was the itemization. That's pretty much been solved though as now looking at it, heart/BKB would have been enough to keep me alive for that first hero kill and then go from there.
Well I wouldn't go for second item Shivas or skadi if I were you. Skadi is fine as a substitute for heart.
I don't know how this game went for you. I may have opted for dagon because your team doesn't have the burst to kill anyone. I'd think dagon Agha or dagon bkb would be decent choices.
But also the only way you were to win was to abuse your 5 man. So maybe my suggestion isn't that good. Hmm. Yea if your team built a pipe, and you went bkb Shiva halberd?
I don't think BKB fights the engagement mode for Necro. Heart is fine but a bit awkward to build up to.
Your team wants a Pipe to finish just before Spectre's Radiance. This nullifies Spectre's Radiance timing and allows you to break a lane with the advantage.
Alternatively, you get a very early Sheep + Gem and basically play a map control game to starve the Spectre until you get another major item. In this case, your team has to play very disciplined to not go high ground, but it's also very safe because the other team has very little ability to countergank you or punish you for farming.
While not something I would normally advocate, with those lineups I'd definitely say you should focus quite heavily on early game items that helps you win early clashes and helps you push. You got the mek, standard and definitely a good choice. The items I would look towards after that are drums, pipe, necro book. If you can communicate with your team and have any other builder of those items in your team (dno if drums treant was planned or if he just built it randomly), exclude those. A pipe on pudge and necro3 on you with drums on you/treant seems ideal to me. Shaman/Warlock will both want to go the Agh/Refresh route.
Should the game drag on without you managing to finish, shivas is fine. Agh and heart would be reasonable too. Not a fan of skadi. But game is probably quite hard if it reaches the point where you can start picking up multiple 5k items.
On September 18 2014 19:37 Kreb wrote: While not something I would normally advocate, with those lineups I'd definitely say you should focus quite heavily on early game items that helps you win early clashes and helps you push. You got the mek, standard and definitely a good choice. The items I would look towards after that are drums, pipe, necro book. If you can communicate with your team and have any other builder of those items in your team (dno if drums treant was planned or if he just built it randomly), exclude those. A pipe on pudge and necro3 on you with drums on you/treant seems ideal to me. Shaman/Warlock will both want to go the Agh/Refresh route.
Should the game drag on without you managing to finish, shivas is fine. Agh and heart would be reasonable too. Not a fan of skadi. But game is probably quite hard if it reaches the point where you can start picking up multiple 5k items.
I've been favoring a fast Blink/Mek/Dagon before Aghs on Necro. I know this is a "pub" build but it's really nice to be able to insta gib just about any hero in the mid game, while also ensuring you win team fights. Aghs doesn't seem necessary so early on, with Dagon giving much better effective damage, and denying buybacks isn't relevant until later on. Blink Dagger is actually insane on this hero, letting you sit back so you don't get initiated on and then BOOM gib the target / clutch saves with mek + death pulse / ez cleanup duty. With this build I'm almost always able to get several extra kills in the mid game and of course farm well due to the mobility and extra mana, ensuring Aghs is still online by the time I need it.
I usually leave the Dagon at level 1 unless I get 6 slotted in which case I'll upgrade it.
The problem with that build is that two of those items are most effective when rushed, so having 2 of them reduces the impact of the one you go 2nd (mek/dagon btw).
I personally think if you are getting farm (mid or safelane farmer) then you would be nuts to not go mek before dagon. An early mek on a necro is one of the strongest early pushs in the game with all that healing and survival and allows you to take T1s with pretty much complete impunity. Your team can snowball very well off all that tower gold and generally just starve the other team and win.
Blink is damn good though, definitely a must pickup, but I'd get it after boots mek and blademail personally
I like atos rush and leaving mek to someone else. I think its better that way. Dagon 5 is very good on necro. Eh that item is good on any hero actually.
Mek is bought out of the necessity of someone having to get it to match your tempo. Ideal scenario is that you don't have to get it, because your mana actually is tight in a fight until you find a Sadist kill. But you'd rather get Mek than have no one get Mek.
Opinions on skipping Aura entirely (or perhaps taking one value point)? I feel like it is a pretty bad spell, and that the +8 stats do a lot more for him.
On December 07 2014 20:19 juracule wrote: Opinions on skipping Aura entirely (or perhaps taking one value point)? I feel like it is a pretty bad spell, and that the +8 stats do a lot more for him.
im low level but i always thought his aura is pretty insane. when fights are a bit longer the damage adds up pretty quickly and its a huge aoe damage.
If fights are lasting a bit longer you should be winning that fight anyhow because of Death Pulse and Sadist keeping you and your teammates up. The biggest problem necro faces imo is getting quickly burst down (and mana problems if he aint getting sadist procs).
On December 06 2014 12:35 DucK- wrote: I like atos rush and leaving mek to someone else. I think its better that way. Dagon 5 is very good on necro. Eh that item is good on any hero actually.
I also like Atos rush, gives you everything you need. After that I am going for Eul and Blink combo, and you feel really tanky and mobile, you also have nice CC spells from Eul and Atos and with the right timing of Eul + Blink you can escape almost in any situation.
On December 07 2014 20:19 juracule wrote: Opinions on skipping Aura entirely (or perhaps taking one value point)? I feel like it is a pretty bad spell, and that the +8 stats do a lot more for him.
Aura is doing huge damage in teamfights if you position well so you are not taken down easily. In the early game I am almost always getting one level of aura, especially good against melee heroes. Few days ago I saw a guy maxing aura early, I laughed at first, but literally nobody could stand against him on the lane, the damage is really insane for something that is passive, you are melting with almost any hero. It is probably some fun and not so serious build but I have a feeling that it could work and that aura is underestimated by majority of players.
On December 07 2014 20:31 juracule wrote: If fights are lasting a bit longer you should be winning that fight anyhow because of Death Pulse and Sadist keeping you and your teammates up. The biggest problem necro faces imo is getting quickly burst down (and mana problems if he aint getting sadist procs).
Theoretically yes, but it works a bit differently in practice. Sometimes you can't just jump in and spam death pulse as you will be easily focused down and aura is doing quite a bit of work.
On December 07 2014 20:31 juracule wrote: If fights are lasting a bit longer you should be winning that fight anyhow because of Death Pulse and Sadist keeping you and your teammates up. The biggest problem necro faces imo is getting quickly burst down (and mana problems if he aint getting sadist procs).
It sounds like you are team fighting in a way that either nets you a 5-0 victory over the enemy team, or the same for them to you (0-5). What I mean is that it sounds like you are out of position. Unless you absolutely have to initiate, stay back. Let your aura do work. Make them jump on your terms. When you jump in, they shouldn't have all their spells up to burst you.
1v1 or 1v2 is different, but 5v5, you should not be the one jumping in first.
On December 07 2014 20:19 juracule wrote: Opinions on skipping Aura entirely (or perhaps taking one value point)? I feel like it is a pretty bad spell, and that the +8 stats do a lot more for him.
Don't skip aura it's the source of the majority of Necros hero damage
On December 07 2014 20:19 juracule wrote: Opinions on skipping Aura entirely (or perhaps taking one value point)? I feel like it is a pretty bad spell, and that the +8 stats do a lot more for him.
Don't skip aura it's the source of the majority of Necros hero damage
Not defending the build but there's a difference between overall hero damage and hero damage that actually does something useful.
Well you shouldnt outright skip heartstopper. Also level 1 HS is quite nice during landing phase, as you'll burn through opponents regen and set them up to have low hp when you hit 6/7 to set up an ult kill. Definitely level HS from 11 on.
It's not worth skipping entirely, though against certain longer-ranged heroes, a rank is not worth it over Sadist during laning, and you might not pick up the first rank till 8-10.
It's definitely worth it over Stats most of the time, though I can see a few points Stats over ranks 2-4 in some really shitty game where you're poor and dying a lot, so the Aura doesn't get consistent long-duration value.
Aura is a fantastic value point at rank one against 95% of lanes, but I leave it at rank 1 until lvl 12 due to sadist and pulse being better after the first point. Pulse is a no brainer to max first and sadist allows you to actually flash farm and also just NEVER EVER have to return to base which I love
Also Fear's necro involves relying on soulring for mana rather than sadist, he goes 4-4-0-1, which is interesting, though I'm not sure I really like it. Definitely interesting though (soul ring probably underrated considering this hero sometimes doesn't have mana for ult at level 11, especially if you have a mek.)
On December 09 2014 03:04 Comeh wrote: Also Fear's necro involves relying on soulring for mana rather than sadist, he goes 4-4-0-1, which is interesting, though I'm not sure I really like it. Definitely interesting though (soul ring probably underrated considering this hero sometimes doesn't have mana for ult at level 11, especially if you have a mek.)
Reaper's gives you a guaranteed Sadist kill, so that's also effectively giving up 240 HP in a fight (more if you have to use SR to cast something).
4-4-0-1 is significantly more damage, but it's also a survivability hit that changes how you play in fights.
On December 09 2014 03:04 Comeh wrote: Also Fear's necro involves relying on soulring for mana rather than sadist, he goes 4-4-0-1, which is interesting, though I'm not sure I really like it. Definitely interesting though (soul ring probably underrated considering this hero sometimes doesn't have mana for ult at level 11, especially if you have a mek.)
Reaper's gives you a guaranteed Sadist kill, so that's also effectively giving up 240 HP in a fight (more if you have to use SR to cast something).
4-4-0-1 is significantly more damage, but it's also a survivability hit that changes how you play in fights.
Also giving up on 240 mana which is 90 more than soulring
It's 600 mana (Sadist gives more mana than HP), but the benefit of that is more variable because you have to have used Reaper's to get that mana--when the big gate to your mana usage is Reaper's in the first place (and having enough to cast it).
On December 27 2014 00:06 BluemoonSC wrote: is it me or does this hero feel incredibly broken at pretty much all stages of the game.
early, the extra 30s respawn time is brutal and late, i feel like one ulti wins the game.
how do you deal with this royal pain in the ass, especially as a support player
He is pretty damn strong. I've been drafting him whenever I get captain slot. Playing from 4 to 4.5k mmr players as a point of reference.He's brutal to lane against, has great sustain for team and I say he has one of the strongest aghs/refresher combos in the game.
He doesn't have the built in burst to use his aghs, but you can go blink/dagon to snowball off of that or use your team mates to set up scythes.
I'd say to deal with him, dazzle grave i'm pretty sure will save people. OD imprison should save an ally. If he's mid, treat him like DP, a gankable mid that you want to keep down at all costs. Gank him, keep him from getting tanky and snowballing. Pipe helps vs his ult to help prevent the scythe kills.
when you have agh's i almost feel like you don't even need the burst. one q and then an ulti is good enough to send most supports to the well for a full minute, 15 min into the game. seems silly. and if they get a good start mid and pick up a dagon, forget about it.
grave is probably a good call..ill have to try and pick dazzle whenever i run into a necro picker..any other strong heroes? i like SD but i refuse to play him unless im in a 4 or 5 stack with voice.
On December 27 2014 04:47 BluemoonSC wrote: when you have agh's i almost feel like you don't even need the burst. one q and then an ulti is good enough to send most supports to the well for a full minute, 15 min into the game. seems silly. and if they get a good start mid and pick up a dagon, forget about it.
grave is probably a good call..ill have to try and pick dazzle whenever i run into a necro picker..any other strong heroes? i like SD but i refuse to play him unless im in a 4 or 5 stack with voice.
Depends on how you want to counter it. If he's mid I say good roaming supports and kill him in lane a lot. IF you are trying to get a support to keep you alive during a scythe, rubick with maxed null field might be a possibility. Pair him with something aggressive to gank with and that might work.
It's slightly more useful if you're winning because it eliminates the possibility of losing a 5v6 buyback fight when trying to go high ground. In an even or losing game, the buyback-stopping component is only useful when heroes have buyback+TP potential (either very farmed carries or certain heroes).
The damage component is a bit overrated. It raises the kill threshold by 7-9% max HP depending on rank, which is really not that impressive. For example, at around 2k max HP, this is basically about the same as Shiva's Frost Blast, and Shiva's Frost Blast has an attached slow, is AoE, and the item carries an additional aura.
In general, I would not expect Agha to be useful before 3rd major item, and more likely 4th or 5th if at all.
I picked Necro when I was stuck choosing a mid. We won the game because the other team focused me but I wouldn't die. I built mek into Shivas as my item progression. I think Eul's would also be a good item for the cyclone to get off another heal or to chase down enemies.
On December 27 2014 09:19 Economist wrote: I picked Necro when I was stuck choosing a mid. We won the game because the other team focused me but I wouldn't die. I built mek into Shivas as my item progression. I think Eul's would also be a good item for the cyclone to get off another heal or to chase down enemies.
Eul/Blink/Atos are all great "early" items on him, some of them being a bit more situational. Then there is situational Blade Mail too.
I've stopped making Meka on him though, usually rush Atos into Eul and Blink. The thing I've noticed is that since Meka was nerfed, I really struggle to have enough mana for everything(considering I don't kill somebody instantly at the start of the fight), using Death Pulse, Meka, Death Pulse and I am already out of mana for ulti or another Pulse. It might be better to leave Meka to your offlaner/support and you just straight up rush other useful items.
On December 27 2014 10:28 Ramiz1989 wrote: I've stopped making Meka on him though, usually rush Atos into Eul and Blink. The thing I've noticed is that since Meka was nerfed, I really struggle to have enough mana for everything(considering I don't kill somebody instantly at the start of the fight), using Death Pulse, Meka, Death Pulse and I am already out of mana for ulti or another Pulse. It might be better to leave Meka to your offlaner/support and you just straight up rush other useful items.
This depends on the teamcomp.
It's ALWAYS been to have Meka on someone else (even before Meka got changed), as the mana constraint was a potential problem even prior to 6.82, and complementary pushing items (e.g. Mek offlane + Necro Pipe or Necrobook) create stronger push timings. The thing is, Necro is almost picked on the assumption of being the Meka carrier (and therefore in comps where a Meka on anyone else is more awkward than him just getting it himself). It's not so easy to foist the responsibility of carrying Meka onto a 3rd or 4th position hero when it's even more awkward for their progression than it is for yours.
Practically speaking, this means you generally need another holdover mana source to buffer your early max mana (e.g. casual Staff/Point Booster/Ultimate Orb that will be built into a major item later) if you need to get Meka.
I understand what you are saying and I agree, but as you said it was normal for you to get it if your 3rd or 4th couldn't get it in time and it was even better if you could group up and push with Meka around 8th minute than to wait for the next 10 minutes to both you and your support/offlane have Meka and Pipe.
And that is almost impossible now without being mana starved, so yeah Point Booster into Meka maybe is the best choice if you want to go Meka at all. I still don't like it though.
He can be a quite effective jungle based support, akin to a jungle sand king. Start game with sentries, clarity+regen and rush soul ring. Stack hard camp each minute, and use the small camp pull through to get level 3 (2-0-1). At 3, you can stack pulsing the hard camp and kiting it. Clearing a triple stack should shoot you around level 5, and leave you with moderate health and mana, ferry yourself the soul ring, and use it to flash farm the jungle, always either clearing or pulling a hard camp, and you can a blink dagger very quickly. My record for blink is 13 minutes but it can probably be done faster. This allows you to gank freely with your ult, and go back to the jungle and clear it each minute. Afterwards, you can build however you like (PT+meka/phase+eul/agh).
One benefit, much like sandking jungle, is that during the jungle, it's difficult to kill you, and its easy to shift back into lane if the carry needs the lane presence.
There is also a heartstopper max jungle, which needn't be explored >_<
Guys, have you noticed bugs with Necrophos ulti as of late(since patch 6.83 I think)? I've seen it multiple times(and it just happened to me) that I ulti someone on like 30% HP, and before Scythe finishes its animation, someone else kills that hero and HE gets the kill.
I think that is a bug, it even says in the ulti's description that every kill happening under the Reaper's Scythe is accredited to the Necrophos.
On January 17 2015 00:02 Ramiz1989 wrote: Guys, have you noticed bugs with Necrophos ulti as of late(since patch 6.83 I think)? I've seen it multiple times(and it just happened to me) that I ulti someone on like 30% HP, and before Scythe finishes its animation, someone else kills that hero and HE gets the kill.
I think that is a bug, it even says in the ulti's description that every kill happening under the Reaper's Scythe is accredited to the Necrophos.
I think I've seen this as well, though I don't remember which game. At least I think I did; I saw a necro "wasting" his ult on a target that was almost dead. Then I thought, that's not a waste, they'll get the long respawn timer, but when I looked at their icon and it was a normal respawn time. Without the replay I can't go and verify it though.
Reaper's does seem a bit buggy. Something similar happened in the XMG tournament at one point. + Show Spoiler +
at (52:20)
The devdota report is here. It seems kind of random and there might be a few different bugs.
It looks like if a hero dies to the negative regen from heartstopper, the kill goes to necro but the timer isn't applied. If the hero is AA ulted, it sometimes doesn't work either. There might be something new in 6.83 as well, idk.
I play a LOT of necro, and there's several bugs. Hell I've ulted someone where they instantly died after cast, they died and I got credit and the bonus 30 seconds to their respawn, and the cd wasn't used. The sound did play though. The heartstopper interaction said by Belisarius above me is legit as well.
Necrolyte ancients was a thing in Heroes of Newerth for a while - it's the same as old Tinker/Medusa/WR ancients. It's -%HP that pierces magic immunity and was changed to interact with ancients in 6.84 like it used to (iirc) or as it should have all along.
Regardless of how good it is, I can't understand how anyone would find the DotA equivalent of watching paint dry for the first 10 minutes to be in any way fun to play.
On July 17 2015 04:51 TheYango wrote: Regardless of how good it is, I can't understand how anyone would find the DotA equivalent of watching paint dry for the first 10 minutes to be in any way fun to play.
summoning kupo to enlighten us all on how to play heroes that allow you to game on 2 mobas at once
On July 17 2015 04:51 TheYango wrote: Regardless of how good it is, I can't understand how anyone would find the DotA equivalent of watching paint dry for the first 10 minutes to be in any way fun to play.
Dota isn't about fun. It's about grinding those tasty MMR points so everyone can see your gigantic e-peen.
On July 17 2015 04:51 TheYango wrote: Regardless of how good it is, I can't understand how anyone would find the DotA equivalent of watching paint dry for the first 10 minutes to be in any way fun to play.
Dota isn't about fun. It's about grinding those tasty MMR points so everyone can see your gigantic e-peen.
pretty much this. has anyone have experience with how efficient this farming actually is? feels like it'll be faster after lvl 3 but the first few levels might be brutal
On July 17 2015 09:05 evanthebouncy! wrote: has anyone have experience with how efficient this farming actually is? feels like it'll be faster after lvl 3 but the first few levels might be brutal
The original guide I saw for it showed level 7 at 5 minutes. That was when Heartstopper Aura worked on Rosh though. http://imgur.com/gallery/0klwp/new
If you could somehow make yourself useful first 4-5min while stacking ancients and getting lvl 3 for two lvls of aura it might not be terrible. But im not sure how you're gonna accomplish that really.
If you go there straight at lvl 1 you're asking to at best get moderate farm while leaving your team 4v5 or at worst get countered and be left useless all game.
On July 17 2015 11:07 Kreb wrote: If you could somehow make yourself useful first 4-5min while stacking ancients and getting lvl 3 for two lvls of aura it might not be terrible. But im not sure how you're gonna accomplish that really.
If you go there straight at lvl 1 you're asking to at best get moderate farm while leaving your team 4v5 or at worst get countered and be left useless all game.
can confirm the last part.
unfortunately, i had the pleasure of this occurring in one of my ranked pubs. of course it was the player who was greatly above the average mmr on our team trying to do ancients while his lower level buddy also fed in his own lane. compound this with a bounty hunter who immediately discovered the necro and he was indeed left useless all game.
basically, i would not recommend doing this if they have any way for a hero to leave a lane and roam because you will be the most useless of necros out there. you'll have no levels and no farm and you just weakened your team's lanes.
Don't even need a roaming hero. If the enemy actually knows whats up and wards your ancients, you may as well quit the game. Even if you de-ward it, missing 1-2 stacks of ancients crushes you because of how slow your early development already is.
On July 17 2015 14:57 TheYango wrote: Don't even need a roaming hero. If the enemy actually knows whats up and wards your ancients, you may as well quit the game. Even if you de-ward it, missing 1-2 stacks of ancients crushes you because of how slow your early development already is.
On July 17 2015 22:21 DucK- wrote: Ward your own ancients when attempting this. Them wasting their time trying to kill you means time loss for them.
at least if they ward you and you see them coming, necro can stack jungle camps and not feed. if you don't see them coming you're gonna be lvl 1 forever and you're giving them gold to boot.
i think radiant has it harder because if dire does have a roamer, it is more difficult for your team to come help you before you're already dead.
dire at least has the offlaner nearby and even their mid has an easier time getting to them.
On September 13 2016 10:27 Chewbacca. wrote: Most of the time when I see a necrophos he is going offlane these days, which seems really awkward..
He's very all-in on 1 or 2 (because he's pretty much a damage amplifier only in lategame) and you want to have the hero mainly for scythe and maybe some death pulse spam in midgame. He can do both just fine with levels. He's also a pain to lane against, deals well with harass and can catch up farm fairly well. If you got initiation somewhat covered or can just deathball I think pos 3 necro makes a lot of sense.
@FFGens I'd still either go for a stats build like drums->veil->blink/force->aghs or just GG-rush tbh, the hero profits immensely from being able to skirmish/fight early.
i think the rod is surprisingly effective (at this mmr anyway) but going blink glimmer octarine afterwards is probably REALLY slow and relies too much on your team.
i mean when i played him (once?) i went like dagon force staff refresher.
i think if i play him next i'll go like rod, force staff, refresher
rod into dagon might work but i have a feeling its far too slow. i think blink is overkill for this hero and , vitally, you benefit so much from having your team up to speed (with force staff) if you're using a rod on people.
glimmer is fantastic at this mmr but probably not necessary if you aren't a positional donkey and can get by without it, probably the situational item of choice and you are looking to race to refresher instead
might go and play a game or two at 2k now to try him out hehehe :D since shadow of mordor required too many buttons for me
scythe is also my item of choice usually but i wanna try fast refresher since your ulti is so strong
not sure if you get a bottle on this hero, my friend goes straight phase into rod
you heal for 275 flat HP. Increase in raw hp from rod doesn't give him more EHP per heal. The main thing it give is the slow for chasing.
but with veil you get bonus armor, which give u way more EHP per heal, and amplifies damage for you and your entire team. Veil into dagon/blink/eblade is my go-to blow ppl up build xD
I feel he still has a place as a pos4 if you can get him through the early game. I've had pretty good success running him as such. I dont buy the traditional tank up items (shivas, pipe, octarine, veil, you name it) since as #4 youre never gonna reach that status where the enemies are just beating on you and you tank through it. Honestly that requires a pretty damn good game even as core to get to that point.
I just buy Blink, 1-2 escape items (take your pick between ghost/glimmer/force) and then agh. Refresher as first luxury item. Then you play sit back and blink into ult style, essentially something of a scythe bot with otherwise mediocre damage output. But given that you have three pos 1-3 players doing the real damage thats actually quite fine and has been working well. If you can get to Agh youre actually quite strong for a pos4, a mid/lategame Agh-Scythe on an enemy carry can be game winning. And given how easily he can farm and never ever have to go base as soon as you reach lvl 9 or so I've ended up with very good #4 farm usually. I guess being a killstealing hero helps too :p .
On September 13 2016 18:05 evanthebouncy! wrote: I like veil mroe than rod here.
you heal for 275 flat HP. Increase in raw hp from rod doesn't give him more EHP per heal. The main thing it give is the slow for chasing.
but with veil you get bonus armor, which give u way more EHP per heal, and amplifies damage for you and your entire team. Veil into dagon/blink/eblade is my go-to blow ppl up build xD
On September 13 2016 18:56 Kreb wrote: I feel he still has a place as a pos4 if you can get him through the early game. I've had pretty good success running him as such. I dont buy the traditional tank up items (shivas, pipe, octarine, veil, you name it) since as #4 youre never gonna reach that status where the enemies are just beating on you and you tank through it. Honestly that requires a pretty damn good game even as core to get to that point.
I just buy Blink, 1-2 escape items (take your pick between ghost/glimmer/force) and then agh. Refresher as first luxury item. Then you play sit back and blink into ult style, essentially something of a scythe bot with otherwise mediocre damage output. But given that you have three pos 1-3 players doing the real damage thats actually quite fine and has been working well. If you can get to Agh youre actually quite strong for a pos4, a mid/lategame Agh-Scythe on an enemy carry can be game winning. And given how easily he can farm and never ever have to go base as soon as you reach lvl 9 or so I've ended up with very good #4 farm usually. I guess being a killstealing hero helps too :p .
If you have to get your pos 4 through the early game it could be enigma or bm f.e.. Or WW if we are talking lane sups.
I agree that aghs reaper is amazing lategame, but I'm not sure it's better than black hole or winter's curse. And those heroes still either generate more farm or do more in lane.
i've always liked veil + blademail + drums on this guy but it seems like a lot of build-up to be useful tbh.
you should always be getting a value point in your w early on right? i was playing with a necro the other day that refused to skill it until level 10. am i crazy or is he?
i've never tried to make the hero work but i have played him from safelane for fun before the changes to necro. b4 the changes heartstopper basically worked from out of vision which was very annoying in lane (and in the offlane) if you didn't play opposition very well and let him gain way too many levels. it was one of those 'from-behind' heroes that could do very well or a crazy snowball hero, dagon into blink, etc.
Death Pulse damage was also buffed a bit later on so he could be used in some nasty lanes earlier on. then heartstopper got nerfed back down, at least for radius, and iirc, sadist got buffed a bit for later levels. it used to scale pretty linearly until the last level, like 1/1/1/2 and 2/2/2/4 so it was possible to skip the middle levels and play cancer simulator since you weren't spending mana or needed sustain to deal damage anyway. i don't think it's a good skill compared to the alternatives now. the only other change with the items that make sense on necro is i think veil being a healthy choice, or greaves. those are really the only practical items you'll have completed by 20m.
let's compare Sadist at level 3 vs 4. with lvl 3, you need to last hit at least 4 creeps a wave to sustain mana from using death pulse at lvl 4 , you only need 2 to 3 to sustain or even be profitable.
so you need to ask yourself, what will allow you to gain more levels faster? i think the answer is still to roam around and kill high level heroes, but it's still evident that levels make the hero really shine if it's aimed to played core throughout the game.
if you skipped a level of death pulse, which scales 50 damage per level, i'm assuming you're doing it for heartstopper earlier on, for the value. free damage just sitting there staring them in the face right?
50 damage per pulse off a 1000 HP target is 5% HP, granted, there's resistances so it's closer to 4, and the increase in heal per level is pretty negligible i'm sure we can agree. sitting there in 900 range, for 15 seconds straight is 10% hp removal, still, regardless of 500 HP or 1000 HP.
so even if you're skipping sustain, even if you're skipping the extra damage on death pulse earlier on, the damage you get for free on a value point of heartstopper is pretty paltry on a single target... unless that is your main or only source of damaging or harassing the lane, and you plan on spending a few levels on it earlier on as your main skill. then it scales reasonably well and can be really felt in the lane.
i think it depends a lot on the config, obviously mostly having to do with if you're laning from mid or not. if you are, then maybe you can get value out of the skill at the cost of stalling out levels of sadist since you will have regen from other sources, for example, bottle. so it would be 4-1-1-1, but i still think the goal is 4-1-4-1 at 10.
if you are running it trilane vs trilane or dual vs dual vs tri lane somehow, i think lvl 2 heartstopper actually owns. you're not taking last hits anyway. so in that sense, sadist is the value point. remember that it still works on allied denies. playing support from that point, i think greaves on necro is great but from what i've seen lately the most success comes from trying to build greedy and coming up halfway there.
offlane i've seen success pressuring early with 2-2-0. heartstopper works like a negative tango. if they leave you alone against their carry for a good amount of time, it can be pretty nightmarish.
so honestly i just think it's up to what you can get away with in your lane. if they are not ganking you at all you can just sit there with early levels in heartstopper and claim the lane sort of like the old techies could. if you're farming normally, i don't know if you can do it without both levels in sadist and pulse taking priority.
a 20 minute aghs on the hero is pretty awesome. your ult is basically AM except rather than having other people use mana, you benefit from other people over committing. how long do teamfights last on average? not long enough for heartstopper to make a significant dent, but it is still horrifying what you can get away with in lane.
When talking about laning positions, I think he might do best in a dual-ofllane situation (as the farm-heavier of the two). With a laning partner, there is less danger that you might get jumped on and die instantly, and then 2 pulses can often turn the tide. You might not get as much exp as you would like ideally, but if you manage to provoke some fights, trading your partner for one of the enemy heroes, can get you levels quite quickly. If the lane goes well, you can also let your partner go roam.
At least that's how it works quite well for me. Also I'm rarely seeing trilanes atm. Greaves -> aghs is the build for me, mostly for the reason that once you have arcanes, you basically have infinite sustain (sometimes even an early headdress can be enough).
On September 14 2016 02:14 nanaoei wrote: i've never tried to make the hero work but i have played him from safelane for fun before the changes to necro. b4 the changes heartstopper basically worked from out of vision which was very annoying in lane (and in the offlane) if you didn't play opposition very well and let him gain way too many levels. it was one of those 'from-behind' heroes that could do very well or a crazy snowball hero, dagon into blink, etc.
Death Pulse damage was also buffed a bit later on so he could be used in some nasty lanes earlier on. then heartstopper got nerfed back down, at least for radius, and iirc, sadist got buffed a bit for later levels. it used to scale pretty linearly until the last level, like 1/1/1/2 and 2/2/2/4 so it was possible to skip the middle levels and play cancer simulator since you weren't spending mana or needed sustain to deal damage anyway. i don't think it's a good skill compared to the alternatives now. the only other change with the items that make sense on necro is i think veil being a healthy choice, or greaves. those are really the only practical items you'll have completed by 20m.
let's compare Sadist at level 3 vs 4. with lvl 3, you need to last hit at least 4 creeps a wave to sustain mana from using death pulse at lvl 4 , you only need 2 to 3 to sustain or even be profitable.
so you need to ask yourself, what will allow you to gain more levels faster? i think the answer is still to roam around and kill high level heroes, but it's still evident that levels make the hero really shine if it's aimed to played core throughout the game.
if you skipped a level of death pulse, which scales 50 damage per level, i'm assuming you're doing it for heartstopper earlier on, for the value. free damage just sitting there staring them in the face right?
50 damage per pulse off a 1000 HP target is 5% HP, granted, there's resistances so it's closer to 4, and the increase in heal per level is pretty negligible i'm sure we can agree. sitting there in 900 range, for 15 seconds straight is 10% hp removal, still, regardless of 500 HP or 1000 HP.
so even if you're skipping sustain, even if you're skipping the extra damage on death pulse earlier on, the damage you get for free on a value point of heartstopper is pretty paltry on a single target... unless that is your main or only source of damaging or harassing the lane, and you plan on spending a few levels on it earlier on as your main skill. then it scales reasonably well and can be really felt in the lane.
i think it depends a lot on the config, obviously mostly having to do with if you're laning from mid or not. if you are, then maybe you can get value out of the skill at the cost of stalling out levels of sadist since you will have regen from other sources, for example, bottle. so it would be 4-1-1-1, but i still think the goal is 4-1-4-1 at 10.
if you are running it trilane vs trilane or dual vs dual vs tri lane somehow, i think lvl 2 heartstopper actually owns. you're not taking last hits anyway. so in that sense, sadist is the value point. remember that it still works on allied denies. playing support from that point, i think greaves on necro is great but from what i've seen lately the most success comes from trying to build greedy and coming up halfway there.
offlane i've seen success pressuring early with 2-2-0. heartstopper works like a negative tango. if they leave you alone against their carry for a good amount of time, it can be pretty nightmarish.
so honestly i just think it's up to what you can get away with in your lane. if they are not ganking you at all you can just sit there with early levels in heartstopper and claim the lane sort of like the old techies could. if you're farming normally, i don't know if you can do it without both levels in sadist and pulse taking priority.
a 20 minute aghs on the hero is pretty awesome. your ult is basically AM except rather than having other people use mana, you benefit from other people over committing. how long do teamfights last on average? not long enough for heartstopper to make a significant dent, but it is still horrifying what you can get away with in lane.
I'm pretty sure drums+veil beats aghs in every way possible at 20 mins unless you are preparing to go highground or are against absolutely zero physical damage. Outside of that informative and interesting post.
On September 14 2016 04:49 Mafe wrote: When talking about laning positions, I think he might do best in a dual-ofllane situation (as the farm-heavier of the two). With a laning partner, there is less danger that you might get jumped on and die instantly, and then 2 pulses can often turn the tide. You might not get as much exp as you would like ideally, but if you manage to provoke some fights, trading your partner for one of the enemy heroes, can get you levels quite quickly. If the lane goes well, you can also let your partner go roam.
At least that's how it works quite well for me. Also I'm rarely seeing trilanes atm. Greaves -> aghs is the build for me, mostly for the reason that once you have arcanes, you basically have infinite sustain (sometimes even an early headdress can be enough).
maybe we'll try it. we party together every day but have like a 0% winrate together (exaggeration but you get the idea) , last time i had him support me we didn't talk to each again for a while. but maybe it'd be fun to try duo lane with him as the carry instead of as the fucking useless feeder support who goes boots first then walks into 2 heroes for no fucking reason and keeps trying to pull at random times and tanks creeps for half his hp and stands there hiding while i'm hitting the fucking tower coz all their heroes are somewhere else so i have to fucking shout ATTACK. THE FUCKING. TOWER every goddamn time. or yeah maybe he's better off mid
On September 14 2016 04:49 Mafe wrote: When talking about laning positions, I think he might do best in a dual-ofllane situation (as the farm-heavier of the two). With a laning partner, there is less danger that you might get jumped on and die instantly, and then 2 pulses can often turn the tide. You might not get as much exp as you would like ideally, but if you manage to provoke some fights, trading your partner for one of the enemy heroes, can get you levels quite quickly. If the lane goes well, you can also let your partner go roam.
At least that's how it works quite well for me. Also I'm rarely seeing trilanes atm. Greaves -> aghs is the build for me, mostly for the reason that once you have arcanes, you basically have infinite sustain (sometimes even an early headdress can be enough).
maybe we'll try it. we party together every day but have like a 0% winrate together (exaggeration but you get the idea) , last time i had him support me we didn't talk to each again for a while. but maybe it'd be fun to try duo lane with him as the carry instead of as the fucking useless feeder support who goes boots first then walks into 2 heroes for no fucking reason and keeps trying to pull at random times and tanks creeps for half his hp and stands there hiding while i'm hitting the fucking tower coz all their heroes are somewhere else so i have to fucking shout ATTACK. THE FUCKING. TOWER every goddamn time. or yeah maybe he's better off mid
I mean if that's the basis of your question everyone's just wasted a lot of time and effort writing responses to what was essentially a thinly-veiled QQ.
Personally I think he's best as a farming core in a dual offlane, probably with something defensive behind him.
not wasted, but the hero has a pretty fragile game right now. so it's good to figure out how to play a game with his hero because he is actually very fun when you are starting to win.
idk he has a pretty good pub winrate. He definitely tails as people get better but he's still a solid 10%er in most brackets, especially the 2k in question.
EPT![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/dota2/images/0/0e/Necrophos_Large.png)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/dota2/images/thumb/e/ec/Necrophos_death_pulse.png/105px-Necrophos_death_pulse.png)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/dota2/images/thumb/2/2f/Necrophos_heartstopper_aura.png/105px-Necrophos_heartstopper_aura.png)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/dota2/images/thumb/0/0c/Necrophos_sadist.png/105px-Necrophos_sadist.png)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/dota2/images/thumb/9/95/Necrophos_reapers_scythe.png/105px-Necrophos_reapers_scythe.png)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/dota2/images/a/a6/Necrophos_icon.png){kind=icon}
Necrophos
