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On May 06 2014 16:31 Kreb wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2014 07:57 Staboteur wrote:On May 06 2014 06:10 Kreb wrote:On May 06 2014 05:30 son1dow wrote:
What are some basic things to consider with a pushing lineup? What are some good timings to push, and what heroes work well withing these timings? I understand nobody is going to just list them all here, so is there a list of heroes with their critical push strength level/item timings anywhere on the web?
Thanks for all the previous answers BTW, and happy b-day Yango! Dont think there are "timings" as in "at 12min we shall group up and take this tower". Different heroes are different, different enemies are different, first 10min are different.... etc. Just try to build a well rounded lineup with at least 2-3 pushing heroes and probably try to have one or two "midgame carries" that can do the carry work. For example if you run Pugna safelane a DK mid could be great as compliment and as midgame carry. Or if you run a Chen+Prophet and use summons as push a midgame carry like Mirana, Razor or Viper can be good. Also consider aura heroes like Venge and Luna. You dont need to go all out though. If you have Pugna+DK you dont need Leshrac and Shadow Shaman supports on top of that. They can of course work too, but dont forget to build a well rounded lineup. Dont forget to have a good mek builder either (preferably one of your three cores so it arrives faster). And dont forget Urn. Mek is a no brainer but Urn can give very needed sustainability to your push. And squeeze in a pipe if you have a suitable carrier for it and its favourable vs the enemy heroes. Although pipe is probably the least important of the three. What? Most big ults are push timings. Warlock's 6 can be a huge push timing if the enemy team can't fight into the warlock ult. Chen's got decent push timings at 5, 7, and mek. BKB timings can also mean awesome times to push. You don't necessarily need a Chen / furion / luna / venge / pugna lineup to push, all you really need is something that says "Fighting in to us is a bad idea, if you dont let us kill this tower we kill you. In your own words: What? Show nested quote +Dont think there are "timings" as in "at 12min we shall group up and take this tower". Different heroes are different
Yeah. I misread and thought we disagreed when actually we agreed exactly.
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On May 07 2014 04:23 BoZiffer wrote:
Anybody know of any good Brewmaster replays/players so that I can study the hero?
http://www.datdota.com/hero.php?q=Brewmaster
Games of Air from DT, he plays alot of competitive brewmaster.
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I main Viper and I wonder what to get vanguard/mek or shadowblade. I noticed that I died a lot due to low health and started getting one of these two (vanguard if team already has mek) in addition to SB. However getting both delays Agenheims and Butterfly (if the game progresses that long). Should I still get both or stop getting one or the other. Also I want to know what to get first, butterfly or manta. I already get yasha mid game but butterfly is so damn good.
Last question: Is carry Veno good? I have played a few games and done well but I want to be sure.
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United States47024 Posts
Mek and Shadow Blade are very unfocused together. Shadow Blade is a very solo-kill/gank focused item, but this pairs poorly with Mek because Mek doesn't give you damage (and therefore is a liability in gank/solo kill situations). Mek is a very teamfight-focused item, but this pairs poorly with Shadow Blade because a lot of Shadow Blade's value comes from the invisibility which is a lot weaker in teamfights when teams are more coordinated about having detection.
Treads->Mek->Agha is a "standard" way to progress off Mek. it's extremely teamfight-focused though and not suited for some pub games. It's weakness is that it's early game is very much focused on staying in lane and farming until your Mek because without movement speed or offensive stats, ganks take a lot of effort thanks to your poor base movement speed. In a game where you are required to have more early action, something like Phase+Urn+Drums might be more suitable.
Your item progression needs to be very flexible. Butterfly is a good lategame option but as a 3rd item theres a lot of variation. Manta is good situationally, Heart is strong but typically awkward after Mek+Agha because HP and regen are not the stats you need most at that point. AC is very strong. Halberd is decent in losing games. The key, as with many heroes, is that you have to be flexible and evaluate what is important to you and important to your team at that point in time.
Don't get Vanguard. It's just not that good on Viper compared to other options.
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On May 07 2014 07:23 TheYango wrote:
Mek and Shadow Blade are very unfocused together. Shadow Blade is a very solo-kill/gank focused item, but this pairs poorly with Mek because Mek doesn't give you damage (and therefore is a liability in gank/solo kill situations). Mek is a very teamfight-focused item, but this pairs poorly with Shadow Blade because a lot of Shadow Blade's value comes from the invisibility which is a lot weaker in teamfights when teams are more coordinated about having detection.
Treads->Mek->Agha is a "standard" way to progress off Mek. it's extremely teamfight-focused though and not suited for some pub games. It's weakness is that it's early game is very much focused on staying in lane and farming until your Mek because without movement speed or offensive stats, ganks take a lot of effort thanks to your poor base movement speed. In a game where you are required to have more early action, something like Phase+Urn+Drums might be more suitable.
Your item progression needs to be very flexible. Butterfly is a good lategame option but as a 3rd item theres a lot of variation. Manta is good situationally, Heart is strong but typically awkward after Mek+Agha because HP and regen are not the stats you need most at that point. AC is very strong. Halberd is decent in losing games. The key, as with many heroes, is that you have to be flexible and evaluate what is important to you and important to your team at that point in time.
Don't get Vanguard. It's just not that good on Viper compared to other options.
Thanks! The reason I get mek or vanguard is because I find myself getting bursted in team fights. I use SB for attack speed and getaway as my phase and slows usually get the kill in ganks but I will try that out. I am kindve a noob (not high enough luck for rank, only know a few heroes in terms of playing them good). Since it seems mek doesn't seem to work with my build from what you have said and as you said Vanguard sucks on Viper what items would increase survivability for about 2000 or lower as I usually am only able to get agenheims and maybe Butterfly/Manta before game ends?
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Northern Ireland22213 Posts
If you're going shadowblade and you plan to pick up an aghanims later, getting a casual point booster is fine. Maybe an ogre club as that gives you flexibility to go to BKB instead of aghanims. Drums also costs 1850 gold and gives you everything you need.
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The land of freedom23126 Posts
On May 07 2014 07:17 Mecha King Ghidorah wrote:
I main Viper and I wonder what to get vanguard/mek or shadowblade. I noticed that I died a lot due to low health and started getting one of these two (vanguard if team already has mek) in addition to SB. However getting both delays Agenheims and Butterfly (if the game progresses that long). Should I still get both or stop getting one or the other. Also I want to know what to get first, butterfly or manta. I already get yasha mid game but butterfly is so damn good.
Last question: Is carry Veno good? I have played a few games and done well but I want to be sure.
Carry Venomancer was pretty legit in dota 1, hadn't seen a single one real #1 Venomancer in dota 2 for a long time.
He doesn't have real damage scalings, so if you plan to carry, it's always better to get scepter/discord/force staff, something like that, not agility dps dealer build.
Viper is sick vanguard/scepter holder, meka/scepter is same but with more profit to team, with max corrosive skin you're like AIDS-dispenser, better not touch it.
Bkb is good after it, manta is sometimes better. But to be honest, everything works for Viper, every item.
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I can't get this level 4 ursa rosh thing down to save my life. I've tried it 5 times now and only killed him once. It seems so unsafe. I have stout, smoke, mask of death, 0-2-2-0. I'm stacking overpower before I enter, 4 hits and then overpower and then 4 more hits, and then using overpower every time it comes off cd. I'm... like... clicking on rosh... there's not much to it...
If he bashes at the wrong time, or double bashes, it's over and I die. There is no way I would feel confident doing this in an actual game. What am I doing wrong?
Is there a way to jungle him to at least level 5 without a fountain trip? I find I'm looking to suicide to creeps pretty consistently between 4 and 5, depending on camps, so level 5 isn't reliable either.
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Noob question inc.
How do I alert my mates with a message of cd on my skills/items, what's the hotkey?
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On May 07 2014 13:38 Nausea wrote:
Noob question inc.
How do I alert my mates with a message of cd on my skills/items, what's the hotkey?
Hold alt and click on the thing you want to alert.
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On May 07 2014 13:51 Xxazn4lyfe51xX wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2014 13:38 Nausea wrote:
Noob question inc.
How do I alert my mates with a message of cd on my skills/items, what's the hotkey? Hold alt and click on the thing you want to alert.
Thank you
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On May 07 2014 13:17 Belisarius wrote:
I can't get this level 4 ursa rosh thing down to save my life. I've tried it 5 times now and only killed him once. It seems so unsafe. I have stout, smoke, mask of death, 0-2-2-0. I'm stacking overpower before I enter, 4 hits and then overpower and then 4 more hits, and then using overpower every time it comes off cd. I'm... like... clicking on rosh... there's not much to it...
If he bashes at the wrong time, or double bashes, it's over and I die. There is no way I would feel confident doing this in an actual game. What am I doing wrong?
Is there a way to jungle him to at least level 5 without a fountain trip? I find I'm looking to suicide to creeps pretty consistently between 4 and 5, depending on camps, so level 5 isn't reliable either.
I just attempted it once and succeeded. I'm going to give it another go or two to make sure it wasn't a fluke and will update this post when i've done so.
Second attempt also succeeded. Even with 3 separate occasions of getting double bashed. Attempt was at ~5min lvl 4, 0-2-2-0. I'm not sure if you're doing this, but make sure you move to the very edge of the rosh pit each time you engage him. The time he takes to wander back each time gives you a few more free hits in.
As far getting to level 5 without a fountain trip, I wasn't able to do it the time I tried it, and even if I had made it, I suspect I would have been a bit low.
Edit: After actually trying, I did manage to get to lvl 5 quite comfortably without having to go back to the fountain starting stout tango tango salve, even after getting the healing trolls for the easy camp so that I couldn't finish it before the 1 minute spawn. Managed to farm mask, smoke, a tp and boots before i had to suicide. But I had to kite the neutrals heavily, and hitting 5 took until roughly 6-7 minutes into the game. I'm fairly certain the lvl 4 rosh is easily doable, and given that you get 3 levels from doing it solo at level 4, I don't think it's even worth it to try and get to level 5 in the jungle if your objective is to do rosh.
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So I made the mistake of not first banning Invoker and the person who wanted Kunkka didn't want to go mid so I picked BS to go mid and I lost pretty hard. It makes sense that he's good against him because of the silence, but he just autoattacked me down. Trading hits didn't go well. What do? I started quelling, stout shield, tangos.
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On May 07 2014 14:47 Jerubaal wrote:
So I made the mistake of not first banning Invoker and the person who wanted Kunkka didn't want to go mid so I picked BS to go mid and I lost pretty hard. It makes sense that he's good against him because of the silence, but he just autoattacked me down. Trading hits didn't go well. What do? I started quelling, stout shield, tangos.
Should be fine. Stay out of attack range and dart in to last hit and deny. Abuse the creep aggro to pull the enemy creeps closer to your side. With blood bath, you should be able to sustain fairly well in the lane. If you're trying to trade right clicks with invoker, it's not going to end well. When you back off he gets free hits in while creeps are potentially wailing on you. Instead just focus on getting CS in lane.
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On May 07 2014 15:33 Xxazn4lyfe51xX wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2014 14:47 Jerubaal wrote:
So I made the mistake of not first banning Invoker and the person who wanted Kunkka didn't want to go mid so I picked BS to go mid and I lost pretty hard. It makes sense that he's good against him because of the silence, but he just autoattacked me down. Trading hits didn't go well. What do? I started quelling, stout shield, tangos. Should be fine. Stay out of attack range and dart in to last hit and deny. Abuse the creep aggro to pull the enemy creeps closer to your side. With blood bath, you should be able to sustain fairly well in the lane. If you're trying to trade right clicks with invoker, it's not going to end well. When you back off he gets free hits in while creeps are potentially wailing on you. Instead just focus on getting CS in lane.
Ok, thanks. I thought I was being a bit too aggressive, but he was really wailing on me.
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28104 Posts
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On May 07 2014 13:17 Belisarius wrote:
I can't get this level 4 ursa rosh thing down to save my life. I've tried it 5 times now and only killed him once. It seems so unsafe. I have stout, smoke, mask of death, 0-2-2-0. I'm stacking overpower before I enter, 4 hits and then overpower and then 4 more hits, and then using overpower every time it comes off cd. I'm... like... clicking on rosh... there's not much to it...
If he bashes at the wrong time, or double bashes, it's over and I die. There is no way I would feel confident doing this in an actual game. What am I doing wrong?
Is there a way to jungle him to at least level 5 without a fountain trip? I find I'm looking to suicide to creeps pretty consistently between 4 and 5, depending on camps, so level 5 isn't reliable either.
its been working for me everytime. i go into rosh with a mask and a stout shield at level 4.
if simply right clicking doesnt work for you, try kiting rosh to his tether and hit him as he runs back. Though honestly im confused why its not working out for you. Even level 3 is doable (but a lot more rng) but 4 should be np.
show me a replay?
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On May 07 2014 13:17 Belisarius wrote:
I can't get this level 4 ursa rosh thing down to save my life. I've tried it 5 times now and only killed him once. It seems so unsafe. I have stout, smoke, mask of death, 0-2-2-0. I'm stacking overpower before I enter, 4 hits and then overpower and then 4 more hits, and then using overpower every time it comes off cd. I'm... like... clicking on rosh... there's not much to it...
If he bashes at the wrong time, or double bashes, it's over and I die. There is no way I would feel confident doing this in an actual game. What am I doing wrong?
Is there a way to jungle him to at least level 5 without a fountain trip? I find I'm looking to suicide to creeps pretty consistently between 4 and 5, depending on camps, so level 5 isn't reliable either.
Try pre-eating a tango just before entering. Or bring a salve and kite a little. You likely dont need the full salve effect, and you obviously cant let stacks drop off. Just a few seconds to get your health back up a little.
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EPT
