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Belisarius
Profile Joined November 2010
Australia6233 Posts
May 03 2014 22:45 GMT
#16901
When might I want drums over vanguard as spectre?

Also, is there some kind of minor farming item on her? If I want to rice, I feel like it's radiance or go home.

TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
May 04 2014 00:07 GMT
#16902
On May 04 2014 07:45 Belisarius wrote:
When might I want drums over vanguard as spectre?

Also, is there some kind of minor farming item on her? If I want to rice, I feel like it's radiance or go home.


Drums suits games where early-midgame fights have a lot of setup for you and require you to be a damage source--so Drums' superior chasing power and damage comes into play.

Vanguard suits games where early-midgame fights revolve around you being a frontliner for more damage-focused backline heroes (e.g. AA, Invoker)--so Vanguard's superior raw survivability comes into play.
Moderator
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-05-04 03:48:09
May 04 2014 00:57 GMT
#16903
On May 03 2014 09:14 llIH wrote:
Hello Team Liquid,

I really need help with drafting. Basically Picking Lycan, and drafting around him.
He has been picked much before and after the patch.

Replay: 639892592
We are first pick - RADIANT

We ban Invoker(1), Ember. (3)
Enemy ban: Centaur(2), Outworld Devourer(4)

We first picked Lycan(1), Death Prophet (2) ((Forgot to write this, thanks))
enemy picked Axe(2) and Mirana.(3)

We ban: Bane(5), Shadow Demon (7)
Enemy ban: NP (6), Shadow Shaman (8)

We pick: Batrider (6), Lich (8)
Enemy pick: AA (5), Undying (9)

we ban: Pugna (10)
Enemy ban: Venomancer (10)

we pick: Rubik (10)
Enemy pick: Weaver (10)

- Should we put Lycan mid to dodge the aggressive trilane of the enemy?
- Should we trilane aggressive since we know they will go aggressive trilane?

Can someone experienced with drafting please help me explain what we did wrong here?
I knew they would aggressive trilane vs our Lycan. But my team did not know what to draft.
Are there any specific heroes we need to pick and ban when we first pick Lycan?

Appreciate the previous help I have been given and also the help in the future.
Thanks

don't first pick lycan and then SECOND PICK DP is your biggest and foremost mistake. both of those heroes are win conditions that fulfill similar roles (push, physical dps against locked down opponents). it's hugely greedy to try and get both, if you're prioritizng both because they rape at your mmr, you should just ban one and pick the other. honestly, ember isn't worth banning at sub 4.5k imo, it's very hard to lane and get appropriately farmed on the hero, especially after the recent nerfs.

if you have lycan or dp, konw that your goal with lycan to come online at 12-15 minutes with vlads aegis and take down all outer towers safely 1 by 1. you have to draft that you can survive the first 12-15 minutes essentially 4v5, so your second pick should be an extremely safe lane support, cm or sk or lion or ss or whatever seems to work at your mmr. pros run dp more often safelane than midlane (h4nni and koreans are the only ones who go mid with her afaik), because really she gets raped by unexpected ganks and her ulti is physical, she's a physical dpser, not a magical ganker/semicarry like other mids. at low mmr, she's strong because she rapes the 3-4 man skirmishes that tend to break out after people start hitting 6, but at high mmr, people will gank her more aggressively and punish her for existing.

she does not compliment lycan well at all, since lycan thrives with lots of lockdown. you could've even run something like treant protector mid and it would've been better for a lycan comp. personally i would've run lycan OR dp mid with bottle crowing and just put like cm sk wk bot for guaranteed 2 blinks 3 stuns (sk and wk should build blinks and initiate everything) in fact, i'm surprised sk wasn't mentioned at all this draft, he's by far the #1 support imo this patch, because he can stack a hard camp and farm it with level 2 w guaranteeing easy 6 and easy blink.

centaur was banned, so you should've also prioritized getting offlane clockwerk, imo, as he provides tankiness (which you should value in all lineups that can't clearly survive without it) and initiate/coutnerinitiate. batrider was o.k., but all sub 4k bats probably have issues getting their blink on time, especially without supports stacking jungle (and as i mentioned, you should've had like sand king or cm farming your jugnel anyway with a strong safelaner like wraith king who can hold his own)

i honestly don't like lich as a lane support, i only really pick him when i really need to deny a lane or as counterpick against armor reduction, and when you have lycan/dp you're the one with the stronger win condition to protect, which lich doesn't do as well as supports like jakiro/dazzle/sd/whathaveyou

rubick is also a semigreedy lane support, he doesn't have the guaranteed oomph of the click stun damage supports (again, cm, sk, jak, vs, etc) because his damage and cc are in two different skills. though dazzle/sd are also pretty greedy, you can and should always run sd with strong followup damage like dazzle healbombs, which is what empire have been 8-0 with this patch, or potm, lesh, idkwat

shoutout to ogre magi who alsow ould've been better than either of your supports, that bloodlust is pretty sick with all rightclickers and multicast is fucking hilarious, as is 6 armor at level 1
posting on liquid sites in current year
Staboteur
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Canada1873 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-05-04 05:19:52
May 04 2014 01:17 GMT
#16904
Sick doj
I'm actually Fleetfeet D:
llIH
Profile Joined June 2011
Norway2147 Posts
May 04 2014 02:56 GMT
#16905
Show nested quote +
On May 04 2014 09:57 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On May 03 2014 09:14 llIH wrote:
Hello Team Liquid,

I really need help with drafting. Basically Picking Lycan, and drafting around him.
He has been picked much before and after the patch.

Replay: 639892592
We are first pick - RADIANT

We ban Invoker(1), Ember. (3)
Enemy ban: Centaur(2), Outworld Devourer(4)

We first picked Lycan(1), Death Prophet (2) ((Forgot to write this, thanks))
enemy picked Axe(2) and Mirana.(3)

We ban: Bane(5), Shadow Demon (7)
Enemy ban: NP (6), Shadow Shaman (8)

We pick: Batrider (6), Lich (8)
Enemy pick: AA (5), Undying (9)

we ban: Pugna (10)
Enemy ban: Venomancer (10)

we pick: Rubik (10)
Enemy pick: Weaver (10)

- Should we put Lycan mid to dodge the aggressive trilane of the enemy?
- Should we trilane aggressive since we know they will go aggressive trilane?

Can someone experienced with drafting please help me explain what we did wrong here?
I knew they would aggressive trilane vs our Lycan. But my team did not know what to draft.
Are there any specific heroes we need to pick and ban when we first pick Lycan?

Appreciate the previous help I have been given and also the help in the future.
Thanks

don't first pick lycan and then SECOND PICK DP is your biggest and foremost mistake. both of those heroes are win conditions that fulfill similar roles (push, physical dps against locked down opponents). it's hugely greedy to try and get both, if you're prioritizng both because they rape at your mmr, you should just ban one and pick the other. honestly, ember isn't worth banning at sub 4.5k imo, it's very hard to lane and get appropriately farmed on the hero, especially after the recent nerfs.

if you have lycan or dp, konw that your goal with lycan to come online at 12-15 minutes with vlads aegis and take down all outer towers safely 1 by 1. you have to draft that you can survive the first 12-15 minutes essentially 4v5, so your second pick should be an extremely safe lane support, cm or sk or lion or ss or whatever seems to work at your mmr. pros run dp more often safelane than midlane (h4nni and koreans are the only ones who go mid with her afaik), because really she gets raped by unexpected ganks and her ulti is physical, she's a physical dpser, not a magical ganker/semicarry like other mids. at low mmr, she's strong because she rapes the 3-4 man skirmishes that tend to break out after people start hitting 6, but at high mmr, people will gank her more aggressively and punish her for existing.

she does not compliment lycan well at all, since lycan thrives with lots of lockdown. you could've even run something like treant protector mid and it would've been better for a lycan comp. personally i would've run lycan OR dp mid with bottle crowing and just put like cm sk wk bot for guaranteed 2 blinks 3 stuns (sk and wk should build blinks and initiate everything) in fact, i'm surprised sk wasn't mentioned at all this draft, he's by far the #1 support imo this patch, because he can stack a hard camp and farm it with level 2 w guaranteeing easy 6 and easy blink.

centaur was banned, so you should've also prioritized getting offlane clockwerk, imo, as he provides tankiness (which you should value in all lineups that can't clearly survive without it) and initiate/coutnerinitiate. batrider was o.k., but all sub 4k bats probably have issues getting their blink on time, especially without supports stacking jungle (and as i mentioned, you should've had like sand king or cm farming your jugnel anyway with a strong safelaner like wraith king who can hold his own)

i honestly don't like lich as a lane support, i only really pick him when i really need to deny a lane or as counterpick against armor reduction, and when you have lycan/dp you're the one with the stronger win condition to protect, which lich doesn't do as well as supports like jakiro/dazzle/sd/whathaveyou

rubick is also a semigreedy lane support, he doesn't have the guaranteed oomph of the click stun damage supports (again, cm, sk, jak, vs, etc) because his damage and cc are in two different skills. though dazzle/sd are also pretty greedy, you can and should always run sd with strong followup damage like dazzle healbombs, which is what empire have been 8-0 with this patch, or potm, lesh, idkwat

shoutout to ogre magi who alsow ould've been better than either of your supports, that bloodlust is pretty sick with all rightclickers and multicast is fucking hilarious, as is 6 armor at level 1

fuck was this simple questions simple answers I KNOW IM GOING TO GET BANNED FOR THIS BUT ILL POST IT ANYWAY



Wow thanks a lot!
Jinxed
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
United States6450 Posts
May 04 2014 05:09 GMT
#16906
On May 03 2014 12:30 Kaeru wrote:
Any recent (pro) games where Morphling has been picked? Who is the best current Morphling player?


Just search EG games. I know he was picked up twice yesterday in EG vs Alliance and Arteezy plays him well. Even goes mid to help you with those matchups too.

He really shows off how survivable that hero is with good Morph control as well as how much damage he can output in fights. Pretty much exactly what you want to see as a Morphling player.
LiquidDota Staff"LeLoup is a great name pls undo." -Liquid`Nazgul
Jisira
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
470 Posts
May 04 2014 05:15 GMT
#16907
On May 04 2014 07:45 Belisarius wrote:
When might I want drums over vanguard as spectre?

Also, is there some kind of minor farming item on her? If I want to rice, I feel like it's radiance or go home.



Every single time. If you need a Ring of Health in the laning phase, then wear it naked (as in don't assemble it) and get something like a Linken's after Boots, Drums and Radiance. Vanguard is an item frowned upon for a few things:

1. Unreliable assistance - you want to be able to know what you will and will not block. 70% Block for 20/40 damage, or the Poor Man's Shield that gives 100% for 10/20 for considerably less?

2. You need a Heart - you will always aim for a Heart of the Tarrasque. Instead of carrying two pure +HP items, add utility and well-rounded stats (including a heap of Int for a mana-starved carry) for your hero that won't overlap with the rest of your build.

3. Bang for buck - Vanguard gives pretty much the effective EHP of a Mek (albeit without a mana cost). This means that a Mek will help you as much alone as Vanguard does, but gives your team +250 HP and a regen aura. Just consider that every time you pick up a Vanguard, you are being extremely cost inefficient.

There is no such thing as a minor farming item (AM can't swap Battle Fury for something, Naga/PL wants Radiance etc etc) but if you need to fight and you get shut down to delay your Radiance beyond reasonable timing, the general idea people follow is to get a Diffusal Blade and fight your way to victory.
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
May 04 2014 07:25 GMT
#16908
wow that sik doj
posting on liquid sites in current year
llIH
Profile Joined June 2011
Norway2147 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-05-04 09:21:54
May 04 2014 08:02 GMT
#16909
I just lost 6 games straight - in unranked all pick. The enemy was extremely coordinated every single game. And my teammates picked wrong every single game. They just played 5 man running around the map ganking constantly.
I have never experienced something like this in ranked matchmaking. (I'm 4.5k solo mm) Usually if someone do this in ranked games my team know what to do to adapt. But these games, my teammates were playing like I was in a different bracket. It was like the game was over even before I saw the lane. Anyone else experienced this?
Like - the game wasn't close to even. It was total domination with 20+ kill advantage in all the 6 games.
I'm just going to play ranked from now untill I find out what is the reason for this bad balance.
(In ranked CM - I feel the games are actually very well balanced)

edit. Make that 7 in a row
3 of the losses was vs 5stack. (I was solo in all of my games)
Dead9
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States4725 Posts
May 04 2014 08:41 GMT
#16910
On May 04 2014 14:15 Jisira wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 04 2014 07:45 Belisarius wrote:
When might I want drums over vanguard as spectre?

Also, is there some kind of minor farming item on her? If I want to rice, I feel like it's radiance or go home.



Every single time. If you need a Ring of Health in the laning phase, then wear it naked (as in don't assemble it) and get something like a Linken's after Boots, Drums and Radiance. Vanguard is an item frowned upon for a few things:

1. Unreliable assistance - you want to be able to know what you will and will not block. 70% Block for 20/40 damage, or the Poor Man's Shield that gives 100% for 10/20 for considerably less?

2. You need a Heart - you will always aim for a Heart of the Tarrasque. Instead of carrying two pure +HP items, add utility and well-rounded stats (including a heap of Int for a mana-starved carry) for your hero that won't overlap with the rest of your build.

3. Bang for buck - Vanguard gives pretty much the effective EHP of a Mek (albeit without a mana cost). This means that a Mek will help you as much alone as Vanguard does, but gives your team +250 HP and a regen aura. Just consider that every time you pick up a Vanguard, you are being extremely cost inefficient.

There is no such thing as a minor farming item (AM can't swap Battle Fury for something, Naga/PL wants Radiance etc etc) but if you need to fight and you get shut down to delay your Radiance beyond reasonable timing, the general idea people follow is to get a Diffusal Blade and fight your way to victory.

vanguard is pretty good on spec. spec isn't exactly starved for slots before like 50 minutes into the game anyway
it's not amazing but it's better than drums a lot of the time, especially in pubs
spec's big items are manta and radi. one of those should be your first or second big item. diffusal's really mediocre
evilfatsh1t
Profile Joined October 2010
Australia8947 Posts
May 04 2014 11:29 GMT
#16911
On May 04 2014 17:02 llIH wrote:
I just lost 6 games straight - in unranked all pick. The enemy was extremely coordinated every single game. And my teammates picked wrong every single game. They just played 5 man running around the map ganking constantly.
I have never experienced something like this in ranked matchmaking. (I'm 4.5k solo mm) Usually if someone do this in ranked games my team know what to do to adapt. But these games, my teammates were playing like I was in a different bracket. It was like the game was over even before I saw the lane. Anyone else experienced this?
Like - the game wasn't close to even. It was total domination with 20+ kill advantage in all the 6 games.
I'm just going to play ranked from now untill I find out what is the reason for this bad balance.
(In ranked CM - I feel the games are actually very well balanced)

edit. Make that 7 in a row
3 of the losses was vs 5stack. (I was solo in all of my games)

classic matchmaking. i lost a game a couple hours ago because a kunkka + slark safe lane lost to a solo bloodseeker offlane and their pa free farmed while my offlane bh went afk roam and produced no kills.
Belisarius
Profile Joined November 2010
Australia6233 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-05-04 12:25:46
May 04 2014 12:19 GMT
#16912
Vanguard is more than fine on spectre. If you're discounting it automatically you're not really playing the same game as me. This is why I asked, because I find myself hard pressed to buy any other minor timing item now that they cost the same amount off a stout shield.

I do think there are situations in which drums is better, but if you're telling me that situation is "always" then... sorry... but I'm going to have to disagree with your advice.


On May 04 2014 17:41 Dead9 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 04 2014 14:15 Jisira wrote:
On May 04 2014 07:45 Belisarius wrote:
When might I want drums over vanguard as spectre?

Also, is there some kind of minor farming item on her? If I want to rice, I feel like it's radiance or go home.



Every single time. If you need a Ring of Health in the laning phase, then wear it naked (as in don't assemble it) and get something like a Linken's after Boots, Drums and Radiance. Vanguard is an item frowned upon for a few things:

1. Unreliable assistance - you want to be able to know what you will and will not block. 70% Block for 20/40 damage, or the Poor Man's Shield that gives 100% for 10/20 for considerably less?

2. You need a Heart - you will always aim for a Heart of the Tarrasque. Instead of carrying two pure +HP items, add utility and well-rounded stats (including a heap of Int for a mana-starved carry) for your hero that won't overlap with the rest of your build.

3. Bang for buck - Vanguard gives pretty much the effective EHP of a Mek (albeit without a mana cost). This means that a Mek will help you as much alone as Vanguard does, but gives your team +250 HP and a regen aura. Just consider that every time you pick up a Vanguard, you are being extremely cost inefficient.

There is no such thing as a minor farming item (AM can't swap Battle Fury for something, Naga/PL wants Radiance etc etc) but if you need to fight and you get shut down to delay your Radiance beyond reasonable timing, the general idea people follow is to get a Diffusal Blade and fight your way to victory.

vanguard is pretty good on spec. spec isn't exactly starved for slots before like 50 minutes into the game anyway
it's not amazing but it's better than drums a lot of the time, especially in pubs
spec's big items are manta and radi. one of those should be your first or second big item. diffusal's really mediocre


Diffusal's not that mediocre, it gives a reasonable boost to your ulti damage, comes online quite quickly and gives you excellent chasing power, which neither radiance nor manta offer. I've found vanguard->diffu to be a solid battle spec with a good buildup and a much smoother timing than (drums/vang)->manta, which matters if I'm having to fight rather than rice.
govie
Profile Blog Joined November 2012
9334 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-05-04 13:12:01
May 04 2014 13:11 GMT
#16913
Diffusal feels like it has a timer, moreso then a radiance, itemorder i like is PThreads+Drums+Difussal+Yasha. High attackspeed, extra HP, extra manapool chasingpossibilities early and its easier to farm. Hopefully a correct itembuild

It feels like Spectre has a crappy attackanimation to farm, going for a radiance has cost me alot of games allready. Maybe i should practise more lasthitting against bots but thats so boring.
The two NBA teams in states with legal weed are called the Nuggets and the Blazers...
DrPandaPhD
Profile Joined November 2011
5188 Posts
May 04 2014 17:03 GMT
#16914
Spectres animation is pretty good imo

Phase Magic Stick-> Vanguard/Drums depending om game -> Radi -> Manta -> Refresher -> Heart/Diffu/Bfly/Skadi
리노크 👑
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-05-04 17:15:24
May 04 2014 17:11 GMT
#16915
Spectre's animation is fine, it's just her comparatively low Agi gain and how she typically gets Phase over Treads might make her attacking feel sluggish after a few levels if you're used to heroes like AM/Void/PL.
Moderator
Fencar
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States2694 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-05-04 23:16:07
May 04 2014 23:15 GMT
#16916
What are some good support duos for a trilane?
This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
llIH
Profile Joined June 2011
Norway2147 Posts
May 04 2014 23:34 GMT
#16917
On May 05 2014 08:15 Fencar wrote:
What are some good support duos for a trilane?


Shadow demon + Dazzle

Shadow demon + lina, leshrach, jakiro

Earthshaker + Mirana

Bane + mirana, lesh, jakiro, lina

Ogre/Venge + lesh, lina, jakiro etc

llIH
Profile Joined June 2011
Norway2147 Posts
May 04 2014 23:36 GMT
#16918
When playing trilane vs trilane. (our tri on safe lane)
How should we react if we suspect a 5 man push/gank/dive coming to our lane? Should we tp out and split push before they dive us or what is best situation here?

I feel so many pubs get stomped by aggressive trilane with their safe laner + mid coming to gank the trilane.
KOFgokuon
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States14912 Posts
May 05 2014 00:19 GMT
#16919
That should be really obvious if their safe lane solo is missing. Your solos should be carrying tps at that point, definitely your off laner
llIH
Profile Joined June 2011
Norway2147 Posts
May 05 2014 02:13 GMT
#16920
On May 05 2014 09:19 KOFgokuon wrote:
That should be really obvious if their safe lane solo is missing. Your solos should be carrying tps at that point, definitely your off laner


I might be wrong here. But what you are saying is that we should not dodge a 5vs5 regardless? I find it too vague. There must be different matchups where you do not benefit from fighting early of course.
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