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On December 10 2013 03:13 Sn0_Man wrote:
Even if you are hitting tier ones at level 3 its still almost certainly not worth 1-1-1 unless you are still aiming for 1-1-4 though because otherwise the other abilities are worth more than the very slight tower push speed advantage at that level.
So while your 2nd condition is certainly being met, I was trying to make it more specific. Just hitting a tower isn't enough justification to waste that 3rd point imo, you have to want the aura max and have an overall push lineup.
I see what you mean, but if you get that T1 with the aura rank, you'll realistically hit level 4 before it matters that your stun is a rank down. At which point even if you weren't going 1-1-4-1, you will be fine because you will be 2-1-1-1, and the lack of lane control won't matter that much since you likely won't stay in lane that long with a T1 down.
It really depends though, because the most common way to actually get a T1 is with a gank->push the empty lane, and in that case, you definitely want 2-1 for the gank. It's a pretty rare case where you just walk up to a T1 and straight push it down.
Also, one other disadvantage of aura ranks (though this is less significant except against someone who's really paying attention) is that because invisibility does not disable auras in DotA 2, the aura can give away smoke ganks. Again, it's rare that someone is paying enough attention to this, but it can be a factor in higher level games (the reverse case was a drawback for CM in DotA 1--you basically couldn't skill aura if you wanted to smoke gank early because since Smoke disabled auras, the CM aura deactivating on everyone was a big red flag that you were smoked).
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Thats legit hilarious although a basi on the visible heros would somewhat obfuscate that I assume.
Even if you hit 4 before you need 2 stun, 2-1-1 is worse than 2-2-0 so the aura rank is still shit.
I suppose you have to consider the aura when considering your angle of approach with smoke/invis ganks but 9 times out of 10 thats less relevant than just having better skills I'd guess 
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On December 10 2013 03:26 Sn0_Man wrote:
Thats legit hilarious although a basi on the visible heros would somewhat obfuscate that I assume.
CM aura is technically active on creeps, so the way to check reliably was to click on a creep in an empty lane.
On December 10 2013 03:26 Sn0_Man wrote:Even if you hit 4 before you need 2 stun, 2-1-1 is worse than 2-2-0 so the aura rank is still shit. I suppose you have to consider the aura when considering your angle of approach with smoke/invis ganks but 9 times out of 10 thats less relevant than just having better skills I'd guess
2-1-1 isn't worse than 2-2-0. 4-4-1 is better than 4-1-4, but the first rank of both skills is a lot better than subsequent ranks. The primary concern of an early aura rank is disrupting lane control, which is made irrelevant by how a T1 being down fundamentally shifts you away from the lane anyway.
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I concede I havent reflected about the aura affecting the lane creeps, pushing a lane for no reason especially safe lane early is terrible. I still feel level one aura( 12% damage) is better then second level of wave(20 damage, 1 minus armor). Someone do math please.
I know it all depends on how many you hit with wave, how much physical damage that is followed up after this. And then we have how many auto attacks that has been landed at which damage while the aura is active. Some one might think that is fun to do math with, maybe present with a couple of graphs.
At least some one should be able to figure out if it is faster to kill neutrals alone with lvl 1 aura or lvl 2 wave.
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Rank 1 aura is better than ranks in wave beyond 1 for damage, it's just that the laning and ganking complications of having an aura that affects creeps really stand out against taking aura that early.
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One thing to consider with venge is that the mana cost of stun increases per rank, but wave does not. Most recently I have been going 2-4-0-1 on venge, although I am sure it should vary depending on the game.
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if you're a roaming vs you should always max stun. 3-1-1 standard. burst > sustain dps for roaming gankers. if you dont kill shit fast enough the tp support will come in and the gank might end horribly.
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When my team is losing (let's say we've lost one or two barracks), how should our strategy shift? I've only played like 50 games, and never has the first rax destroyed not determined the winner. The attack has better farm, stronger heroes, more gold from the tower kills, and it will only get worse. We lose teamfights, we lose if we try to farm, etc.
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Go for pick-offs, bait 5v4s/5v3s, and tower trades. Use the positional/vision advantage of T3s to fight defensive fights.
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When you are behind, the cardinal rule is to NOT TAKE FIGHTS YOU WILL LOSE. Which means either you need to start fights with a pickoff then win 5v4 (smoke is good for this) or you need to only fight in your base (where the tower gives you an advantage). Or potentially at rosh if they all group up in the pit and you have AoE for that.
If you don't feel like its possible to set up a winning fight, DONT TAKE THE FIGHT. Farm where you can and hope they make a mistake. Try split pushing. The easiest way to lose is to fight the enemy and lose because not only does that cost you, it feeds them gold too. Even if they are raxing you, try to push another lane and take their rax while they are focused on your base (4 delay, 1 split pushes). Just carry a tp and simply DO NOT LOSE A FIGHT.
Sometimes you have to take a very low percentage fight because there are no other options. At that point though, you lost 5 minutes ago and it pretty much doesn't matter what you do now.
Obviously this isn't going to reliably win you the game but considering you are playing from behind, you can't expect too much. Keeping this in mind ought to win you a few games that the enemies misplay, and thats about as good as it gets.
PS: this includes cutting your losses. If they catch somebody, don't die in a vain attempt to save them. Leave that player to die and try to abuse the fact that the enemies are committing there. Take a tower somewhere else. Squeeze some farm out of your jungle. Give up towers you can't defend. The key in a losing game is to try to get whatever advantage you can since you can't necessarily contest them directly.
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The longer the game goes the smaller the disadvantage will be relative to the total situation so long as you start farming a roughly equal amount to them. Basically a 5k gold deficit or a few towers down means way less 45 minutes into a game than it does 20 minutes. So the longer you stall a game in its current state (gold/xp wise) the more you'll relatively catch up. You don't need to look for a way to necessarily make up the disadvantage right away so much as you want to keep the game from getting worse until a point where you aren't that far behind. Of course you also need to consider things like which side will carry harder and what not, but in general try to remember that you should be playing to not fall further behind more than playing to get the advantage back. When people play desperate to get back an advantage they are very prone to just make the disadvantage worse by trying to make harder or more aggressive plays.
Many of the biggest comebacks I have are just like that. You stall a game with really cautious play and sneaking what farm you can until the disadvantage you had is much less significant than it was earlier.
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The above posts are spot on how to think when behind but here are some practical things.
Talk to your team. Pubs are uncoordinated and playing from behind requires coordination. Talk, type, draw, ping, yell. Do whatever it takes to get your guys to take the farm the need, splitpush or back. Otherwise it's going to be reaaaaaaaaaaaaally hard to make any sort of comeback with a rax down.
Buy wards. Both observers and sentries. If they are not on CD you are doing something wrong. Primarily ward your own jungle because that's where people go to die when they are behind and that's where the enemy will be camping. But you need to farm your jungle. Always stack sentries and observers unless your 100 % sure they haven't warded.
Push out lanes. Generally they can't take the next rax without a pickoff but if it happens and creepwaves are far enough away it gives them nothing. So always push lanes carefully as far out as you can.
Sneak rosh. If he hasn't been touched for 45 minutes it's safe to assume they won't go for it before they realize they can't breach base. Aegis and a figth at t3's is amazing for comebacks.
When you win the fight don't barrel down midlane ASAP unless it's like 90 sec cooldown on everyone or you do it close to their base with lanes pushed out (I thought you were loosing?). Take outer towers or rosh and then back the fuck up. It's so common for a t3 base push to go horribly wrong for the winning team, loosing team takes t1, t2 and then get wiped at t3. Don't do that.
Generally speaking in pubs you can only win if you either have good splitpush (obviously splitpush them to death) or if you have better carries in which case you just want to stall until super late game.
The later is pretty common in 4carry1support drafts where 2 of your carries get decent farm, you loose for 40+ minutes after successful stalling you equalize, game goes for anther 10 minutes while the other 2 carries farm and then you own.
If you have neither and they have the better lategame you hopefully have pretty good team fight so just max out the smoke account and try to win a fight next to their base and rax them in turn. You should probably do a quick prayer as a team before you do this one.
Edit: Baiting is really, really good when your behind since much of your team has nothing else to do anyway. If one guy is splitpushing and your lanes are decently out simply camp 3 guys behind your carry who farms lanes. If you see 3-4 guys off the map get away but usually a few of them are dealing with the other lanes and about 3 heroes come in to gank your hero. People get cocky when they are ahead.
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On December 10 2013 07:50 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
Buy wards. Both observers and sentries. If they are not on CD you are doing something wrong. Primarily ward your own jungle because that's where people go to die when they are behind and that's where the enemy will be camping. But you need to farm your jungle. Always stack sentries and observers unless your 100 % sure they haven't warded.
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Sentries cost an arm in those games for supports, don't put obs and sentry at the same place if you know they warded. They have more money than you and will win this wards war. Better put obs at unusual place and deward most common spots. GL putting sentries on CD
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On December 10 2013 07:50 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
When you win the fight don't barrel down midlane ASAP unless it's like 90 sec cooldown on everyone or you do it close to their base with lanes pushed out (I thought you were loosing?). Take outer towers or rosh and then back the fuck up. It's so common for a t3 base push to go horribly wrong for the winning team, loosing team takes t1, t2 and then get wiped at t3. Don't do that.
This part is the bane of my existence.
"This is our only chance guyz, try mid for gg."
No. No it is not, Mr. Every-pub-I-have-ever-played-with. They have 4 up, 10sec on their carry and two pushing lanes.
"OMG noob Luna report"
Realistically, defending from behind and a rax down is hard in pubs because it requires the whole team to act towards the same goals, when those goals themselves are quite complex. The chance that 5 players are going to evaluate all the factors people have just described and arrive at the same answer is pretty much 0.
Personally, I've found it's helpful to pick a player on my team who's showing leadership and looks like he has half a brain, and just back him in whatever. That stage of the game wants a dictator, and you usually can't elect yourself. If you can get the team to a point where they will all take orders from one guy, whoever it is, you have a shot.
That is, until your dictator spam pings mid after a barely-won teamfight.
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On December 10 2013 12:27 Belisarius wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 07:50 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
When you win the fight don't barrel down midlane ASAP unless it's like 90 sec cooldown on everyone or you do it close to their base with lanes pushed out (I thought you were loosing?). Take outer towers or rosh and then back the fuck up. It's so common for a t3 base push to go horribly wrong for the winning team, loosing team takes t1, t2 and then get wiped at t3. Don't do that. This part is the bane of my existence. "This is our only chance guyz, try mid for gg." No. No it is not, Mr. Every-pub-I-have-ever-played-with. They have 4 up, 10sec on their carry and two pushing lanes. "OMG noob Luna report" Realistically, defending from behind and a rax down is hard in pubs because it requires the whole team to act towards the same goals, when those goals themselves are quite complex. The chance that 5 players are going to evaluate all the factors people have just described and arrive at the same answer is pretty much 0. Personally, I've found it's helpful to pick a player on my team who's showing leadership and looks like he has half a brain, and just back him in whatever. That stage of the game wants a dictator, and you usually can't elect yourself. If you can get the team to a point where they will all take orders from one guy, whoever it is, you have a shot. That is, until your dictator spam pings mid after a barely-won teamfight.
God the amount of times we have time wipe and then I yell rosh and captain wanna-be goes, "no we have to push", and we get reverse teamwiped trying to get T3's or just don't get a tower split-pushing because no one picked a pushing hero. When you pretty much guarantee a T3 with aegis on your super farmed pub carry or just finish the game altogether in the next team fight.
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I randomed Drow and safelaned with CM, we were up against Weaver and Riki. I hate it that Riki can just blink smoke while Weaver joins the fun and they both rip me a new one. It also does not help that my CM partner pulled since I'd get jumped almost immediately. Also, I hate it how they can just tower dive with just half a wave of creeps and still net kills, it's really annoying and it stalled my farm.
Any ideas on how to deal with this kind of situation?
I tried to play it safe/tower hug, that didn't work. I tried to free farm lanes and play it safe (e.g. teleporting out when I see enemies head my way via wards) but even then, I had to settle with brown boots and 2 wraith bands because I had to go to get my Shadow Blade. I also didn't join teamfights when I would see my teammates taking down towers (cuz they pretty much managed with minimal losses anyway) and I'd farm and push another lane. And whenever I'd get into teamfights (cuz my team pushes with me and enemy decides to def), I'd still get focused down by the enemy team (silence didn't help much). We'd still win the teamfights but my items gets stalled, at it makes me less relevant in teamfights.
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One of those situations where it might have been better for your CM to lane with you instead of pull since a dual range lane can be quite oppressive. You can pre-emptively auto attack creeps down if you know your support is going to pull the camps and that'll help reduce the damage you'll take. Against invis heroes, as the laning stage breaks down I generally buy my own detection as a carry to protect myself from invis ganks because you really can't trust other people and 200 gold is nothing if it secures you safety and farm space. You should also probably max arrows/2-3 points in silence and 1 point in aura.
Max frost arrows is ridiculously strong since it's a 60% slow and silence is solid against weaver (do note that silence disables Riki's ulti for the duration). 1 point in aura and grabbing stats instead is pretty acceptable if you're behind and you need survivability.
Since the Shadowblade nerf, I generally think that unless your hero has exceptional synergy with the item, it's a terrible pick up when you're behind. BKB is a far more solid item to get for teamfights and would help kill the mobility of Riki/allow you to manfight with Weaver. Drow has ridiculous based damage as long as you keep your ulti up, so getting more damage items isn't necessarily the best way to go all the time. Finally, your ulti has an animation that disables when nearby enemy heroes are around even if they're invisibile, so it's sort of a "soft counter" to invis.
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Okay, so if no-one else on your team is getting one, does grabbing an urn on weaver makes sense? Seems like a no-brainer to me, gives hp, mana regen, and is good for healing and chasing people down, which is kinda what weaver is for.
Just had a game playing weaver and went urn, and our puck made fun of me for it . We stomped, but I'm just curious whether other people legitimately think it's a decent item for it, or whether I should rethink my shit...
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On December 11 2013 00:43 BallinWitStalin wrote:Okay, so if no-one else on your team is getting one, does grabbing an urn on weaver makes sense? Seems like a no-brainer to me, gives hp, mana regen, and is good for healing and chasing people down, which is kinda what weaver is for. Just had a game playing weaver and went urn, and our puck made fun of me for it . We stomped, but I'm just curious whether other people legitimately think it's a decent item for it, or whether I should rethink my shit...
Ring of Aquila is about the same price and has the aura that helps your team and your creeplane when necessary. Also it gives you 15 damage, and increases your manapool. Generally heroes that are farming less and ganking more want to build the urn as they need the last bit of damage or heal between engagements.
Sure you could go for the Yango-build of Urn, Phase and Drums.. :D
(Plz don't, it's not good for weaver)
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EPT
