|
On November 11 2013 14:13 idonthinksobro wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2013 08:23 Mataza wrote:On November 11 2013 05:45 Staboteur wrote:On November 11 2013 05:04 idonthinksobro wrote:
I'm still kinda new to dota and i have the following 2 problems when playing with randoms, i would assume i'm ranked very low.
1) my allies pick complete bs lineups that make it near impossible to win (i usually pick last for damage control but more often than not they just pick 4x carry)
2) i would like to play support, but if i am not a carry chances are the carry(s) in my team can't farm effienctly enough so we eventually end up losing because of that - what do?
3) how can I encourage players to play as a team, quite often everyone does random stuff and nobody reacts if a teamfight happens or a tower gets attacked.
1) Mostly irrelevant in lower tier games because the coordination often isn't there to take advantage of actually "good" lineups anyways, and the enemy team is likely just as bad, if not worse. I've won games with 4 "carries" and lost games against 5 "carries" (support juggernaut apparently worked!), and those have been in one of the higher brackets. Even if your lineup seems completely random, find or theorize an inherent strength of the lineup (pushing, teamfight, ganking etc) and try play towards that. 2) Playing support when your carry can't farm is frustrating. The first thing to do is to watch the replay, look very closely, and make SURE that it's just your farmer failing to lasthit, and not you or your team failing to make space for them. If you conclude that it's just them failing, then you can stop prioritizing trying to secure their farm, and instead try single pulling to push their tower, or roam to gank mid, all while asking your carry to build immediately relevant items instead of a battlefury and roam/gank/push as well. 3) Easiest to do as a support or a mid. Buy wards, command the game, ping for smokes, lead and communicate ganks. One or two good plays and your team will start to trust you and listen to you, which gives you a platform from which to build some actual team play. Aren't we talking low tier games? For solo mid, wards are still only optional. In day time you can check top rune in less than 10 seconds. The whole point for playing solo mid is that you are independent of your team. If you are better than your enemy, you can outlane him, and depending on heroes kill him multiple times. Depending on your hero, you can just go gank and kill all the sidelane heroes too. If you're not really better than all the people you criticize, however......... At least playing solo mid will teach you some important lessons about what people call tempo or flow of the game. Also it will teach you about whether or not you can kill someone or be killed in return. While less fancy, those judgment experiences are way more important than being good at lasthitting or good at "supporting". I'm not saying that i'm the best player in this game, i probably suck, but at least I try to fulfill the role of my character. But being a support with all my items, than looking at my carry that has an unfinished battle fury and nothing else 35 minutes in is a shitty spot to be in.
The thing I often see is that people are unclear about what supporting means.
Because playing support is in my opinion the same as playing any other role just with generally less farm. On top of it you generally harass the enemy instead iof lasthitting, so your movement and positioning need to be better in lane than that of the carry too.
I've seen many people that bought and placed wards and pulled junglecamps all game without having any impact on the game. If someones impact is 0 than his team is down a player.
Being a good support is way harder to learn than just buying support items and pulling/stacking in the jungle.
Not talking specifically about you, I'm just ranting about what I've seen that really irks me.
|
On November 11 2013 15:19 Mataza wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2013 14:13 idonthinksobro wrote:On November 11 2013 08:23 Mataza wrote:On November 11 2013 05:45 Staboteur wrote:On November 11 2013 05:04 idonthinksobro wrote:
I'm still kinda new to dota and i have the following 2 problems when playing with randoms, i would assume i'm ranked very low.
1) my allies pick complete bs lineups that make it near impossible to win (i usually pick last for damage control but more often than not they just pick 4x carry)
2) i would like to play support, but if i am not a carry chances are the carry(s) in my team can't farm effienctly enough so we eventually end up losing because of that - what do?
3) how can I encourage players to play as a team, quite often everyone does random stuff and nobody reacts if a teamfight happens or a tower gets attacked.
1) Mostly irrelevant in lower tier games because the coordination often isn't there to take advantage of actually "good" lineups anyways, and the enemy team is likely just as bad, if not worse. I've won games with 4 "carries" and lost games against 5 "carries" (support juggernaut apparently worked!), and those have been in one of the higher brackets. Even if your lineup seems completely random, find or theorize an inherent strength of the lineup (pushing, teamfight, ganking etc) and try play towards that. 2) Playing support when your carry can't farm is frustrating. The first thing to do is to watch the replay, look very closely, and make SURE that it's just your farmer failing to lasthit, and not you or your team failing to make space for them. If you conclude that it's just them failing, then you can stop prioritizing trying to secure their farm, and instead try single pulling to push their tower, or roam to gank mid, all while asking your carry to build immediately relevant items instead of a battlefury and roam/gank/push as well. 3) Easiest to do as a support or a mid. Buy wards, command the game, ping for smokes, lead and communicate ganks. One or two good plays and your team will start to trust you and listen to you, which gives you a platform from which to build some actual team play. Aren't we talking low tier games? For solo mid, wards are still only optional. In day time you can check top rune in less than 10 seconds. The whole point for playing solo mid is that you are independent of your team. If you are better than your enemy, you can outlane him, and depending on heroes kill him multiple times. Depending on your hero, you can just go gank and kill all the sidelane heroes too. If you're not really better than all the people you criticize, however......... At least playing solo mid will teach you some important lessons about what people call tempo or flow of the game. Also it will teach you about whether or not you can kill someone or be killed in return. While less fancy, those judgment experiences are way more important than being good at lasthitting or good at "supporting". I'm not saying that i'm the best player in this game, i probably suck, but at least I try to fulfill the role of my character. But being a support with all my items, than looking at my carry that has an unfinished battle fury and nothing else 35 minutes in is a shitty spot to be in. The thing I often see is that people are unclear about what supporting means. Because playing support is in my opinion the same as playing any other role just with generally less farm. On top of it you generally harass the enemy instead iof lasthitting, so your movement and positioning need to be better in lane than that of the carry too. I've seen many people that bought and placed wards and pulled junglecamps all game without having any impact on the game. If someones impact is 0 than his team is down a player.
Being a good support is way harder to learn than just buying support items and pulling/stacking in the jungle.
Not talking specifically about you, I'm just ranting about what I've seen that really irks me.
Yeah and this is exactly why I play the 5 spot every game. It's just so rare to see other supports ward, pull, stack, and gank properly to help their carry farm.
Bad experience with supports:
Play All Pick, someone picks a support hero and does not buy wards/courier at all and does not help the carry farm.
Worst:
All Random, I offer to swap with the hard support, he refuses, and does not get support items at all. Also, he was stealing the last hits of the carry.
|
I play the 5 position a lot probably because it's the easiest position to get a sense of the whole game from, and easiest to understand what you screwed up when you screw up. Other roles have pressure to perform at certain points in the game, but your role as position 5 is relatively unchanging beyond 15 minutes into the game, so you dont NEED to make lot of the macro gamechanging decisions like when to farm, when to defend etc.
You also don't need a nuanced understanding of the hero to lane it as a position 5, which is definitely untrue of a lot of carries, mids, and offlanes.
Support isn't the easiest role by any stretch, but I'd definitely say it's one of the less demanding positions.
|
lagmaster
United States374 Posts
I've been playing meepo a bunch recently and have been getting progressively better with him. I like to take him mid, stack the big camp with my 2nd meepo at level 4 and switch between the lane and the jungle until ult stick (i tend to get it between 12 and 16 minutes and then work towards dagger).
The thing i've been pondering, is what type of boots fits best for this. I've been using tranquils, because the time in between jungle and lane gives me some time to use that passive heal. When I try treads, I find that I need to send various meepos back to the fountain to heal. With tranquils, I don't need to make trips as often (or at all). Still, I feel that I'm limiting my meepo by doing so. Do you think I should switch to treads after dagger? Should I just start with treads?
|
On November 11 2013 16:51 lagmaster wrote:
I've been playing meepo a bunch recently and have been getting progressively better with him. I like to take him mid, stack the big camp with my 2nd meepo at level 4 and switch between the lane and the jungle until ult stick (i tend to get it between 12 and 16 minutes and then work towards dagger).
The thing i've been pondering, is what type of boots fits best for this. I've been using tranquils, because the time in between jungle and lane gives me some time to use that passive heal. When I try treads, I find that I need to send various meepos back to the fountain to heal. With tranquils, I don't need to make trips as often (or at all). Still, I feel that I'm limiting my meepo by doing so. Do you think I should switch to treads after dagger? Should I just start with treads?
I think if you are getting good farm, you should go ahead and just get tranquil boots and keep farming. I feel like threads is more of an item you would get if you were to go more of a mid game meepo such as threads, vlad, mek etc etc because you are having trouble getting sceptar or your team need you. Since threads give you extra surviability needed without the 100% attribute bonus you would get from sceptar. Even then, I feel like threads fails in comparison to tranquil.
|
Amazing how this got misinterpreted.
My take is that support isn't easy going. Warding isn't supporting. Stacking and pulling isn't supporting.
A hard support without any items bigger than boots and at low level is a useless potato in the late game.
But of course nobody in this thread would be a lvl 12 support at 40 minutes with boots, sentries, wards, smoke, magic stick and tp scrolls. Right?
|
I asked this in silencer post but it probably should go here instead.
So why dont pro pick silencer when they see enigma pick? Since silencer ulti goes through bkb which make enigma virtually useless because silence can just stay back and wait for enigma to engage and ulti.
|
he doesnt bring more, like a stun or such.
so he isnt a useful support.
for a carry, he seems to need tons of int to deal dmg, so he has no space for tanky items.
(this was a question on a pro-stream some days ago, dunno who it was, could be during a cast with toby)
|
On November 11 2013 20:09 SheaR619 wrote:
I asked this in silencer post but it probably should go here instead.
So why dont pro pick silencer when they see enigma pick? Since silencer ulti goes through bkb which make enigma virtually useless because silence can just stay back and wait for enigma to engage and ulti.
There are many stuns which go through bkb. I think teams need more justification to pick silencer than just shutting down enigma. Silencer is also not considered a particularly strong hero atm. Also enigma is more than just black hole. He is more about the early mek and pushing etc.
|
On November 11 2013 18:10 Mataza wrote:
Amazing how this got misinterpreted.
My take is that support isn't easy going. Warding isn't supporting. Stacking and pulling isn't supporting.
A hard support without any items bigger than boots and at low level is a useless potato in the late game.
But of course nobody in this thread would be a lvl 12 support at 40 minutes with boots, sentries, wards, smoke, magic stick and tp scrolls. Right?
Boots, Wand + Forcestaff or a euls is expensive when playing support. Takes a while without farm  But u forget then after the laningstage the supports get plenty of oppertunity to scrape some cash here and there for 2 low tier itema or 1 big one.
|
On November 11 2013 21:02 Rodberd wrote:
for a carry, he seems to need tons of int to deal dmg, so he has no space for tanky items.
(this was a question on a pro-stream some days ago, dunno who it was, could be during a cast with toby)
you dont worry about how much int you have, you actually just buy health/armor+attack speed items since you get so much natural int from simply winning fights.
|
I dont fully agree with buying only health and armor for a carry silencer but this guy has it correct that silencers best item for dealing damage is attack speed and not int. Force staff is essential in playing a good damage dealing silencer.
|
treads ff sheep, throw a mek in if nobody else getting one. pretty basic simple silencer carry build.
|
On November 11 2013 20:09 SheaR619 wrote:
I asked this in silencer post but it probably should go here instead.
So why dont pro pick silencer when they see enigma pick? Since silencer ulti goes through bkb which make enigma virtually useless because silence can just stay back and wait for enigma to engage and ulti.
Game isn't only about 1v1 interactions. You can't just pick a hero to counter another hero, it also has to synergize with your draft and function well in it's role in general.
Silencer has no disable, which is bad for a support. Curse and last word are only good vs certain heroes, and do nothing vs BKB. He also has no anti push, which sucks in this meta.
|
Also question: If rubick steals veno wards, do Rubick's wards have the poison sting of veno's level?
|
On November 12 2013 11:25 TheSubtleArt wrote:
Also question: If rubick steals veno wards, do Rubick's wards have the poison sting of veno's level?
yep, like stealing eclipse gives you the level of lunas stun
|
On November 11 2013 22:22 govie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2013 18:10 Mataza wrote:
Amazing how this got misinterpreted.
My take is that support isn't easy going. Warding isn't supporting. Stacking and pulling isn't supporting.
A hard support without any items bigger than boots and at low level is a useless potato in the late game.
But of course nobody in this thread would be a lvl 12 support at 40 minutes with boots, sentries, wards, smoke, magic stick and tp scrolls. Right? Boots, Wand + Forcestaff or a euls is expensive when playing support. Takes a while without farm But u forget then after the laningstage the supports get plenty of oppertunity to scrape some cash here and there for 2 low tier itema or 1 big one.
Carry a TP, save your mate's ass, grab a kill and farm his lane when he goes to fountain. Not that rare during the laning phase.
|
Are there any tricks to stacking certain jungle camps? A lot of the time I aggro them at :53 but they will lose aggro early and head back to the camp before the next wave is supposed to spawn...
Edit: Using AA's ult, just say you are sitting top lane and you send your ult down to bottom lane. Can you ulti, tp bot, then activate 2nd part of ulti and have the radius be the same as if you fired it from top lane, or will it assume that you simply fired it from where you arrived at bot lane and activated the 2nd part of the ability?
|
On November 12 2013 13:23 nojok wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2013 22:22 govie wrote:On November 11 2013 18:10 Mataza wrote:
Amazing how this got misinterpreted.
My take is that support isn't easy going. Warding isn't supporting. Stacking and pulling isn't supporting.
A hard support without any items bigger than boots and at low level is a useless potato in the late game.
But of course nobody in this thread would be a lvl 12 support at 40 minutes with boots, sentries, wards, smoke, magic stick and tp scrolls. Right? Boots, Wand + Forcestaff or a euls is expensive when playing support. Takes a while without farm But u forget then after the laningstage the supports get plenty of oppertunity to scrape some cash here and there for 2 low tier itema or 1 big one. Carry a TP, save your mate's ass, grab a kill and farm his lane when he goes to fountain. Not that rare during the laning phase.
Exactly, since the new patch supports are loaded.
|
On November 12 2013 19:09 Ryder. wrote:
Are there any tricks to stacking certain jungle camps? A lot of the time I aggro them at :53 but they will lose aggro early and head back to the camp before the next wave is supposed to spawn...
Edit: Using AA's ult, just say you are sitting top lane and you send your ult down to bottom lane. Can you ulti, tp bot, then activate 2nd part of ulti and have the radius be the same as if you fired it from top lane, or will it assume that you simply fired it from where you arrived at bot lane and activated the 2nd part of the ability?
the new medium camp is like impossible to stack
u have to stack at :54~:55 depending on the camp on that one
all the other ones should be stackable from :53~:54
aa ulti depend on the position from which you launch the actual projectile. so you get the smaller radius ulti
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
