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On June 19 2013 06:13 Mataza wrote:
I agree that Dagon 1 can be a good item timing. My problem with that is though that it costs a lot of mana.
If Dagon is your first item you will probably need 90% of your manapool to use all your spells and Dagon 1.
That makes Dagon 1 stiff and unflexible as you have to strictly conserve mana and forces you to try 1 combo kills.
If you don't have enough mana for full combo, you have 2 options:
-Don't use 1 of your hero skills
-Don't use Dagon.
This is a straightforward choice. BUT the problem is, that Dagon 1 is strictly worse than every lvl 4 nuke or ulti. So if you don't have enough mana, most of the time you will simply not use Dagon.
If Dagon 1 is your 2nd or 3rd item, it's "timing" is that much later and that much weaker. I personally think the power peak is more around Dagon 3 and Dagon 4. This is from observation and from looking very sharp at the numbers.
dagon1 isn't actually strictly worse than any lv4 nuke or lv1 ulti
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United States47024 Posts
On June 19 2013 06:12 Kupon3ss wrote:
Fiery soul is actually an amazing pickup at lv 4 instead of extra LSA
Situationally yeah. Sometimes I just feel like I want the extra LSA damage, though.
My main point is that even if you have this idea of "carry Lina" in your head, you should still be going 4-4-1, not 4-1-4.
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On June 19 2013 06:15 Kupon3ss wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2013 06:13 Mataza wrote:
I agree that Dagon 1 can be a good item timing. My problem with that is though that it costs a lot of mana.
If Dagon is your first item you will probably need 90% of your manapool to use all your spells and Dagon 1.
That makes Dagon 1 stiff and unflexible as you have to strictly conserve mana and forces you to try 1 combo kills.
If you don't have enough mana for full combo, you have 2 options:
-Don't use 1 of your hero skills
-Don't use Dagon.
This is a straightforward choice. BUT the problem is, that Dagon 1 is strictly worse than every lvl 4 nuke or ulti. So if you don't have enough mana, most of the time you will simply not use Dagon.
If Dagon 1 is your 2nd or 3rd item, it's "timing" is that much later and that much weaker. I personally think the power peak is more around Dagon 3 and Dagon 4. This is from observation and from looking very sharp at the numbers. dagon1 isn't actually strictly worse than any lv4 nuke or lv1 ulti
If you consider the mana cost, the range and secondary effects most hero skills provide you that help in a kill, like slow, mini-/stun or debuffs, I can't think of any.
That you have enough burst damage to kill someone with Dagon 1 while not using 1 skill, but not enough to kill him without Dagon 1 but with that omissed skill is something I never have witnessed.
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United States47024 Posts
Laguna Blade - 450 damage, 280 mana cost, 70s CD, 600 range
Dagon 1 - 400 damage, 200 mana cost, 35s CD, 600 range
Dagon 1 isn't strictly worse.
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Ok, that`s one. I'll give you another
Test of Faith. 200-400 pure damage, cd 24, 175 mana.
I don't think a Slayer should get a Dagon though. Neither should Chen actually.
But yes, I did exaggerate.
Allow me to ask the opposite question: Which hero gets a power peak with Dagon 1 in a situation where having a dagon is actually feasible(not detracting from anything else).
In my opinion an early Dagon puts too many situational constraints to be actually good at rank 1.
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heroes who can be good with lv1 dagon
qop, storm, nec, puck, nyx, pugna, SD just for starter
the common ground on all those heroes is that dagon allows them to have the magic burst to instagib a target, for which dagon1 is undeniably the best in terms of a hero progression/time ratio
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That's a very good list.
Only contest here is Nyx though, as his manapool is really small. With only a Dagon 1 at lvl 10 he has 648 mana. That's roughly enough to cast Dagon and every spell once. That's the constrictingly tight mana management I meant.
Anyway I think we're on the same page. Dagon is situationally good and if you get it, you should consider ugrading it.
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On June 19 2013 06:26 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2013 06:12 Kupon3ss wrote:
Fiery soul is actually an amazing pickup at lv 4 instead of extra LSA Situationally yeah. Sometimes I just feel like I want the extra LSA damage, though. My main point is that even if you have this idea of "carry Lina" in your head, you should still be going 4-4-1, not 4-1-4.
BUT SHE'D BE A FIREBALL CHUCKING RACECAR 
It's just... +190 damage (so what, ~145 actual damage?) for those last 3 points into LSA look so sad when put beside a 170 IAS / 14% MS buff for doing the LSA + Dragon slave combo. I guesssssssssss it's good to have a dead DK instead of a DK with 100 health left that stunned you and is breathing on your stunned (albiet high attack and movespeed) face.
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United States47024 Posts
The other difference is that if you're getting farmed as a solo/safe lane carry, having 4 Slave 4 LSA lets you instantly clean creep waves (280 + 280 damage is enough to clear melee creeps until the 15 minute mark), as well as allowing you to clean double/triple stacked hard camps blindingly fast.
If you're going to play her as a carry, then you should farm her like one.
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On June 19 2013 08:28 Mataza wrote:
That's a very good list.
Only contest here is Nyx though, as his manapool is really small. With only a Dagon 1 at lvl 10 he has 648 mana. That's roughly enough to cast Dagon and every spell once. That's the constrictingly tight mana management I meant.
Anyway I think we're on the same page. Dagon is situationally good and if you get it, you should consider ugrading it.
I disagree. I find that list comprehensive enough and nyx is definitely on that list. What's more fun than insta gibbing any heroes with a dagon 1+skills combo. So much fun. Even better when your facing their intel heroes, Vendetta + higher leveled dagon = instant death.
<- goes Brown boot/Bottle/Dagon 5 every nyx.
PS: Witchdoctor should be on that list. Maledict is strong.
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On June 19 2013 09:08 Staboteur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2013 06:26 TheYango wrote:On June 19 2013 06:12 Kupon3ss wrote:
Fiery soul is actually an amazing pickup at lv 4 instead of extra LSA Situationally yeah. Sometimes I just feel like I want the extra LSA damage, though. My main point is that even if you have this idea of "carry Lina" in your head, you should still be going 4-4-1, not 4-1-4. BUT SHE'D BE A FIREBALL CHUCKING RACECAR It's just... +190 damage (so what, ~145 actual damage?) for those last 3 points into LSA look so sad when put beside a 170 IAS / 14% MS buff for doing the LSA + Dragon slave combo. I guesssssssssss it's good to have a dead DK instead of a DK with 100 health left that stunned you and is breathing on your stunned (albiet high attack and movespeed) face.
well ur comparing 3 levels of LSA to 4 levels of the passive; it should be 70 ias 6% MS
movespeed isn't really that useful on lina besides for initial setup since her attack point is so awful it's hard to chase things anyway
and caster lina is carry lina
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United States47024 Posts
On June 19 2013 09:29 Mithhaike wrote:
PS: Witchdoctor should be on that list. Maledict is strong.
But delaying Aghanim's means you're less likely to get those pwnagemlg420noscope ultis.
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On June 19 2013 09:29 Mithhaike wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2013 08:28 Mataza wrote:
That's a very good list.
Only contest here is Nyx though, as his manapool is really small. With only a Dagon 1 at lvl 10 he has 648 mana. That's roughly enough to cast Dagon and every spell once. That's the constrictingly tight mana management I meant.
Anyway I think we're on the same page. Dagon is situationally good and if you get it, you should consider ugrading it. I disagree. I find that list comprehensive enough and nyx is definitely on that list. What's more fun than insta gibbing any heroes with a dagon 1+skills combo. So much fun. Even better when your facing their intel heroes, Vendetta + higher leveled dagon = instant death. <- goes Brown boot/Bottle/Dagon 5 every nyx. PS: Witchdoctor should be on that list. Maledict is strong.
if you really want to list every hero there's also prophet and tinker and probably more
and usually nyx gets arcanes before or after dagon 1 which pretty much fixes his mana issues
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On June 19 2013 09:34 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2013 09:29 Mithhaike wrote:
PS: Witchdoctor should be on that list. Maledict is strong. But delaying Aghanim's means you're less likely to get those pwnagemlg420noscope ultis.
AFAIK they should let us dismantle dagon! We can build dagon then dismantle for staff of wizardry for Aghanim's! Solve both issues at the same time!
I like Dagon on WD just because of how I can go gank people every 35sec at the very least.more fun then just waiting on my Aghanims
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If I add a towers destroyed modifier to a strange that counts victories, will the name of the item have 2 titles? Atm: 'Journeyman ITEM NAME'. If I add the modifier: 'Tower-bane Journeyman ITEM NAME'?
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On June 19 2013 07:35 Kupon3ss wrote:
heroes who can be good with lv1 dagon
qop, storm, nec, puck, nyx, pugna, SD just for starter
the common ground on all those heroes is that dagon allows them to have the magic burst to instagib a target, for which dagon1 is undeniably the best in terms of a hero progression/time ratio
just want to add bloodseeker. rupture+dagon is just to fun 
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Lalalaland34510 Posts
On June 19 2013 20:21 bardtown wrote:
If I add a towers destroyed modifier to a strange that counts victories, will the name of the item have 2 titles? Atm: 'Journeyman ITEM NAME'. If I add the modifier: 'Tower-bane Journeyman ITEM NAME'?
Items can have multiple modifiers, yes.
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On June 19 2013 09:11 TheYango wrote:
The other difference is that if you're getting farmed as a solo/safe lane carry, having 4 Slave 4 LSA lets you instantly clean creep waves (280 + 280 damage is enough to clear melee creeps until the 15 minute mark), as well as allowing you to clean double/triple stacked hard camps blindingly fast.
If you're going to play her as a carry, then you should farm her like one.
Makes a bunch of sense. Thanks!
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hey,
i just started playing dota2 and wanna play AI games until i get a general understanding of the game. First thing i realized is im a total scrub.
My question is: Is there something like a list of heroes that are recommended for getting started, mechanically not that demanding or something? I googled but couldn't find what i was looking for, so im hoping you guys can help me out here. A quick list of heronames from some more or less experienced(to help me out u probably dont need to be good at all) would help already as finding guides for champs doesn't seem that hard.
im posting here because the guide index thread has been out of use for a while, i hope you don't mind.
Also sorry for disrupting the conversation going on here with something like this :p
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On June 20 2013 02:43 Feiya wrote:
hey,
i just started playing dota2 and wanna play AI games until i get a general understanding of the game. First thing i realized is im a total scrub.
My question is: Is there something like a list of heroes that are recommended for getting started, mechanically not that demanding or something? I googled but couldn't find what i was looking for, so im hoping you guys can help me out here. A quick list of heronames from some more or less experienced(to help me out u probably dont need to be good at all) would help already as finding guides for champs doesn't seem that hard.
im posting here because the guide index thread has been out of use for a while, i hope you don't mind.
Also sorry for disrupting the conversation going on here with something like this :p
Here's a few to try out:
* Skeleton King - Melee strength carry. Was previously known as the least mechanically demanding hero since Q was his only active ability, but he was recently patched so that one of his passives has an active component. He has build in crit and lifesteal and his ulti lets him respawn on death, so he's very easy to play. Just farm, get armlet and some tanky items, then proceed to right-click everyone to death without ever dying.
* Viper - Ranged agi carry. Like SK, he has almost no active abilities, you just toggle his Q on when you want to do teh damage and teh slow. Get agi carry items and pwn everything.
* Venomancer - Ranged agi support. If you're a n00b and want to support, this is the guy. Early game he has one of the best slows in the game and does good damage. His wards let him push/counterpush like a boss, and late game it's all about using his AOE ulti on as many enemies as possible.
* Queen of Pain - Ranged int semi-carry. This is the hero I recommend if you want to train mid. Insane burst and mobility.
* Lich - ranged int support. Lets you ignore mana conservation and lane control since his sacrifice skill does it for you. Extremely good and easy to use ulti.
These are all easy to use heroes, except possibly queen of pain (but she's so good, as long as you learn how to play her you should have fun).
I'd go as far as say that most heroes are fairly easy to play, especially if you check a purge video so you learn how to use them. Some exceptions which you should stay away from early: Invoker, Wisp, Chen, Enchantress, meepo, visage.
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EPT
