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I'm cross posting what I said in the Grant-specific thread.
On June 25 2020 00:02 Oukka wrote:This has been a really hard couple of days reading this stuff emerging. I guess I've been naïve, possibly and probably willingly, believing that for some reason the esports and streaming communities would have been better than this. I can just that hope people who have been victims of harassment and assaults feel that they can bring up these events and do not have to repress them and pretend that they never happened. From there it should be possible for all of us to be more aware and able to react faster and weed out inappropriate behaviour when we encounter it. Grant case specific stuff in the spoilers + Show Spoiler +
I feel like the whole discussion of drugged vs drunk is completely missing the point. Yes it is the frame in which these cases have been (and will be) framed in courts, but that is a feature of the current legislation and practice, not some absolute truth. My problem is that someone who was in a vulnerable state was taken advantage of, bluntly there was no consent to sex or sexual acts. If someone doesn't say, yes OR IS NOT CAPABLE OF SAYING YES, it isn't consent.
It is luckily not for me or other random internet forum goers to decide whether a crime happened or not, and if so what it was, but at the very least I'd like to say that moral compasses should be pointing firmly towards "WRONG" in this case.
Subsequently we can all individually try to learn from this, first of all make sure that our own behaviour isn't inappropriate and feeding into a culture of this kind of toxicity, but also try to call it out and step in when it occurs around us.
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My hope right now that things actually will change is almost non-existent. All we've got is tears from Grant's friends and hot takes like they're coming from people who just learned about feminism.
The people who are calling these things out are an inspiring group of people that I support but almost everyone at the top have taken no real actions. It's honestly pathetic at this point and this just shows us why people felt safe to be sexual predators in the Dota scene.
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Lalalaland34510 Posts
On June 25 2020 02:03 juuto wrote:
My hope right now that things actually will change is almost non-existent. All we've got is tears from Grant's friends and hot takes like they're coming from people who just learned about feminism.
The people who are calling these things out are an inspiring group of people that I support but almost everyone at the top have taken no real actions. It's honestly pathetic at this point and this just shows us why people felt safe to be sexual predators in the Dota scene.
Regarding people at the top, it's only been 2 days since all this came to light. It's fair to give them a bit of time to figure out some of the changes that are needed to address such a deep rooted cultural issue.
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Speaking of, remember when this happened and a lot of people just made jokes about it
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On June 25 2020 02:12 Firebolt145 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 02:03 juuto wrote:
My hope right now that things actually will change is almost non-existent. All we've got is tears from Grant's friends and hot takes like they're coming from people who just learned about feminism.
The people who are calling these things out are an inspiring group of people that I support but almost everyone at the top have taken no real actions. It's honestly pathetic at this point and this just shows us why people felt safe to be sexual predators in the Dota scene. Regarding people at the top, it's only been 2 days since all this came to light. It's fair to give them a bit of time to figure out some of the changes that are needed to address such a deep rooted cultural issue.
It's been years actually since people were informed about Grant harassing women like Llama. It's been years since someone was informed that Grant was probably a predator. Maybe the allegation that Grant sexually assaulted a woman came to light 2 days ago but the vast majority of things came to light years ago behind the scenes.
They've had more than enough time.
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On June 25 2020 02:03 juuto wrote:
My hope right now that things actually will change is almost non-existent. All we've got is tears from Grant's friends and hot takes like they're coming from people who just learned about feminism.
The people who are calling these things out are an inspiring group of people that I support but almost everyone at the top have taken no real actions. It's honestly pathetic at this point and this just shows us why people felt safe to be sexual predators in the Dota scene.
He seemingly quit (whether this sticks or not is anybody's guess) and EG let him go, so presumably there isn't any way further to enact punishment on Grant specifically. With that said, what real actions would you like to see at the top? Letting go of other people at the places Grant worked at, who presumably served as enablers? Promises of more rigid hiring procedures by these places? An institutional apology to Llhama?
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On June 25 2020 02:26 Sbrubbles wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 02:03 juuto wrote:
My hope right now that things actually will change is almost non-existent. All we've got is tears from Grant's friends and hot takes like they're coming from people who just learned about feminism.
The people who are calling these things out are an inspiring group of people that I support but almost everyone at the top have taken no real actions. It's honestly pathetic at this point and this just shows us why people felt safe to be sexual predators in the Dota scene. He seemingly quit (whether this sticks or not is anybody's guess) and EG let him go, so presumably there isn't any way further to enact punishment on Grant specifically. With that said, what real actions would you like to see at the top? Letting go of other people at the places Grant worked at, who presumably served as enablers? Promises of more rigid hiring procedures by these places? An institutional apology to Llhama?
Any assurance that Grant would not be allowed back even if he decided to return would be a start. Not having Tobi, who laughed at the harassment that Llama received, casting at this exact moment would also be a nice. Women also have apparently been known to avoid him too btw so maybe there's an issue here. They also very recently had Demon casting their games hours before he was exposed for sexual harassment. There's been no statement on that or the accusations against Zyori. Any comment on the Llama situation would be appreciated too. At this point, I'd just like to see anything else besides the radio silence we're getting now.
On June 25 2020 02:26 plasmidghost wrote:
My thoughts on this situation and other posts in this thread, coming from the perspective of my experiences as a transgender woman and long-time supporter of Llama:
A lot of men don't realize the severity of what we face. From random guys coming up to me and placing their hands on me, to sexually degrading comments, to full-on sexual assault, all of this is commonplace for us women, doubly so being trans, where we're frequently denied access to women's spaces. Comments like ixmike's are commonplace. I can't even begin to tell y'all about the amount of people like him I encounter daily. The casual gawking at us. The casual dehumanization of us. The pure vitriol that gets told to us. The misogyny and transphobia is overwhelming.This has been my biggest reason for no longer following esports and being a part of the community.
Grant is a scumbag. No question about it. But, all of EG, BTS, and others that covered not just him but those like him, are complicit. They did nothing while people got shut out of the community. They did nothing while people went through hell. As they say, one bad apple spoils the bunch.
You want to know why we don't come forward when we're harassed in male-dominated spaces? Because the pieces of shit in charge are protected. Our fears and pain get dismissed as overreactions or attention-seeking. When we dare to speak up, we get silenced or blacklisted from the community. This is why I'm genuinely shocked that we're being listened to. Llama wasn't listened to in 2016. I remember her being flamed nonstop on Reddit. I remember the casual transmisogyny being shown to her girlfriend. That shit put me more into the closet because I loved Dota 2 and didn't want to be ostracized.
I'm cynical of these people with all their tears and public statements when they knew. They fucking knew and they let it happen and tried to rehabilitate the perpetrators. It's so fucking disgusting that they only care now that the spotlight's being shone on them. Those complicit assholes get to keep their jobs. They get to keep their careers and their passion. Llama and the many other women that have been constantly harassed in the Dota scene don't get that. Fucking hell, I'm tired.
I can't blame you for your cynicism because I'm there with you. Even after they supposedly washed their hands of Grant, there seems to be more perpetrators that look like they're going to be rehabilitated. Bigots and predators are more important to them than marginalized people as always.
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You have every right to be cynical of people like those in BTS and EG. They knew and are just trying to cover their own asses now. At best they were woefully negligent. In any case, they are not deserving of the power they wield.
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On June 24 2020 07:04 Firebolt145 wrote:Ah, it was unclear to me. I am referencing the twitlonger here: https://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sr9ltr/1In it, a person who everyone now realises successfully convinced a court that Grant was harassing her, reveals that several persons including LD and GoDz covered for Grant. When I say cover for Grant, they supported him, decided to hire him and work with him despite the accusations from another person. Sheever is quoted making a flippant comment suggesting that Grant needs the help in court. How much of this is real? I don't know, but it seems more and more real as more information is revealed. And if anything, my position is to defend LD, GoDz, and a lot of others who were involved, because they were probably all ignorant or blind to what was truly going on. Grant apparently was telling them all that he won the court case ( https://i.imgur.com/rM6gxTV.png). Do I think they were criminals? No. But I think they were ignorant. Would I make the same mistake if I was in their position? I might have. But hopefully now I won't any more. edit: Apparently a direct quote of GoDz, which I would say is covering for Grant: Show nested quote +Godz: Hey just chill! Nothings changing lets just all enjoy the hub and not stress out! Grant is harmless in person and will probably just avoid you knowing him if the two of you have had beef online before, so I wouldn't worry too much about being there in person with him.
I feel like I have to react to this post. Sweden had a very early #metoo reaction that backfired spectacularly in some cases (women sued and convicted after long dragged out processes) and if it should teach us something it is that the best thing in these situations is to take a step back, consider the situation carefully and act only on verified facts.
The linked post says very little of substance and nothing that is verified except grant taking on some admission of guilt and stepping down. Even a won court case can have shades of grey in it.
There is even less substance on what GoDz and LD might have known and even if there was the responsibility organisations and people have for working with "problematic" people is not clear cut at all. Especially for something as loosely organised as esports there is seldom (never?) a good corporate structure for dealing with issues like this and it can be extremely hard for an individual to personally do something about it and frankly it doesn't have to be their responsibility.
For example if you as a individual or organisation hear of a loose accusation about sexual misconduct and refuse to work with a person and it turns out to be false you could very well be sued for that.
A better structure that can deal with these kinds of allegations is a more fruitful discussion than personal responsibility and more important in the long run.
In my opinion reports about sexual misconduct are very serious and should be treated that way but innocent until proven guilty has turned out be the norm for good reasons and it's something everyone should consider carefully (especially the more "power" you have in the affected community).
I also think people should consider the fact that esports is an media and entertainment industry and that social media statements about this kind of situation is the norm when it comes to protecting your personal brand and not automatically assume that it's either an admission of fault or automatic evidence of wrongdoing.
In this kind of situation everyone with a stake in the industry will put out a statement against sexual harassment.
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Lalalaland34510 Posts
My feeling on that matter is that this is more difficult for GoDz and LD when (as per my understanding) they started BTS off as a small start up partnership. They are a small group of people recruiting casters from a relatively small community where everyone knows everyone and word of mouth is what you go by. And if Grant tells everyone that his court case went in his favour, then...it's easy to believe your friend who you share hobbies with.
I'm willing to bed they don't have a HR department overseeing every hire.
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On June 25 2020 04:08 Firebolt145 wrote:
My feeling on that matter is that this is more difficult for GoDz and LD when (as per my understanding) they started BTS off as a small start up partnership. They are a small group of people recruiting casters from a relatively small community where everyone knows everyone and word of mouth is what you go by. And if Grant tells everyone that his court case went in his favour, then...it's easy to believe your friend who you share hobbies with.
I'm willing to bed they don't have a HR department overseeing every hire.
This isn't what happened though. Llama went to them directly willing to provide evidence of Grant's harassment, a lot of it was on public sites like NADota, Reddit, and Twitch so the information was readily available to them back then. His background was well known by everyone which is why people talk about his "redemption". People who are good from the beginning do not need to change to redeem themselves.
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On June 25 2020 04:24 juuto wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 04:08 Firebolt145 wrote:
My feeling on that matter is that this is more difficult for GoDz and LD when (as per my understanding) they started BTS off as a small start up partnership. They are a small group of people recruiting casters from a relatively small community where everyone knows everyone and word of mouth is what you go by. And if Grant tells everyone that his court case went in his favour, then...it's easy to believe your friend who you share hobbies with.
I'm willing to bed they don't have a HR department overseeing every hire. This isn't what happened though. Llama went to them directly willing to provide evidence of Grant's harassment, a lot of it was on public sites like NADota, Reddit, and Twitch so the information was readily available to them back then. His background was well known by everyone which is why people talk about his "redemption". People who are good from the beginning do not need to change to redeem themselves.
Do you have verified facts of what happened? If so please post them.
Because it's not uncommon that it is the words of one side (plus occasionally some screenshots and documents that may or may not paint a clear picture) against that of the other side and this evidence (or lack of evidence) is then presented to people who may, or may not, be in a position to act on it.
Especially so when it's not even about the original offender but people in their proximity that "should" have acted.
Also things being on NADota, Reddit, twitter and Twitch is NOT the same as them being true.
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On June 25 2020 04:32 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 04:24 juuto wrote:On June 25 2020 04:08 Firebolt145 wrote:
My feeling on that matter is that this is more difficult for GoDz and LD when (as per my understanding) they started BTS off as a small start up partnership. They are a small group of people recruiting casters from a relatively small community where everyone knows everyone and word of mouth is what you go by. And if Grant tells everyone that his court case went in his favour, then...it's easy to believe your friend who you share hobbies with.
I'm willing to bed they don't have a HR department overseeing every hire. This isn't what happened though. Llama went to them directly willing to provide evidence of Grant's harassment, a lot of it was on public sites like NADota, Reddit, and Twitch so the information was readily available to them back then. His background was well known by everyone which is why people talk about his "redemption". People who are good from the beginning do not need to change to redeem themselves. Do you have verified facts of what happened? If so please post them. Because it's not uncommon that it is the words of one side (plus occasionally some screenshots and documents that may or may not paint a clear picture) against that of the other side and this evidence (or lack of evidence) is then presented to people who may, or may not, be in a position to act on it. Especially so when it's not even about the original offender but people in their proximity that "should" have acted. Also things being on NADota, Reddit, twitter and Twitch is NOT the same as them being true.
They were posts and Twitch streams made by him personally. Most of what he did to Llama wasn't a secret at all.
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Czech Republic18921 Posts
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Kyle's essay is hella blunt and hella fantastic.
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Damn my boy Jimbo got caught up in this shit too. Not Grandgrant levels of severity but still, not a good look given the current state of things.
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On June 25 2020 04:48 cecek wrote:
Kips. Would love to read what you guys think about this.
Quite problematic. A pattern of doing it would indicate that Zyori knew what he was doing and had a pattern
Adding to OP.
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Czech Republic18921 Posts
On June 25 2020 05:26 Nevuk wrote:Quite problematic. A pattern of doing it would indicate that Zyori knew what he was doing and had a pattern Adding to OP.
What did he do, actually? He invited her to TI5 afterparty, tried to see if there's some feelings, got rejected. Some time later tried again when he was in the same town and got rejected again, end of story. I've done stuff like that, a couple times. Fuck, the majority of heterosexual men have done that. I don't think I did anything wrong. Am I problematic? Am I a rapist? Because the first girl called Zyori a rapist and Kips is now saying she's right.
the fact that you can get called out on that five years after it happened and potentially lose your career really fucking scares me.
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EPT
