We understand that this topic evokes strong feelings. In the interest of maintaining a necessary and productive discussion, we will be taking a strong stance against posters that clearly do not contribute to this aim. Dishonest and bad faith arguments, victim blaming, and attacks on other users, will be strictly moderated. A post which only serves to muddy the waters and dishonestly portray the nature of assault and harassment (and corresponding accusations) is also unwelcome.
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On June 24 2020 06:14 NInoff wrote: @Firebolt145 About the WIcked situation - so you also assumed that he drugged her? OMG. Then because she heard that someone said that he hates her and you get that for a fact? Maybe he does after she was ignoring him for months, and he feels ashamed rejected and embarrassed. Maybe the friend made that up. Maybe the friend told some lies to Grant also.How do you know that he remembers something? How do you know what happened, and if anything happened? How do you know that he drugged her? Because that is the only case that he did something wrong. I've seen people pass out after 50ml of whiskey.
If someone gets drunk because the drink was "really fucking good" and someone drank it in one go and doesnt remember, its not true that someone else did that to him/her. If you get drunk to a point that you don't remember and then you have fears about what you did is not someone elses fault.... and did you embarass your self? - almost certainly. DId you have sex with other people? Probably... Most people did that in their youth,a nd if you are ashamed of it don't get drunk as simple as that.
See i too assume that she got drunk the same way many people assumed that he drugged her.... pointless argument . Since i don't know Wicked i'm going to assume one more thing - since her dota career is not that good she decided to move in to golddigging. ( Wicked don't worry i don't really think that just making a point) Assumptions in cases like that are useless. As is the whole discussion without proof.
I have made no assumptions whatsoever. This thread isn't about assuming things. This thread is about discussing the allegations that were made on Twitter by many people at once. The response to this was Grant being fired from EG, everyone distancing themselves from him, and Grant accepting some level of responsibility and leaving the scene permanently. All this strongly suggests that some part of these allegations are true. Whether or not it was due to drugs, or drinking, or whether someone said something specific or not, the pattern that comes out from these allegations is that Grant took sexual advantage of someone.
On June 24 2020 06:29 Sapaio wrote: I just want to understand something here. So the post and discuession you link to is not to support your views on the subject.
What we support is that sexual harassment is not okay. Rape is not okay.
On June 24 2020 05:31 Sapaio wrote: I am a upset a user got tempored banned because he/she made a ironic post about sexual harassment. I can see that being a being a wrongful act but slander is also a criminal act so i think this post as such could be banned. Why can u blame people of sexual harassment without any proof without more than twitter or other social media post. So i am going to report this post if this is going to be the case of justice.
Edit,; turns out that i can not report this post. Because some people on the staff can just make criminal accusation without any real proof and ban people that disagree or does not discues in a way they like. What kind of forum is this
Literally no one on our staff has even slightly made any kind of criminal accusation. This thread is for the discussion of info that is publically available on reddit/twitter. None of the accusations are from us in any way.
Ok if this is just a discussion thread. Then if you ban one person of making comments and not another person post. We must presume that you would favor one persons views over another. For me you ban an post that is ironic and satirical but not post that are slandar. So I would presume that liquid support this view and since you started the thread banning people disagreeing it seems obivious
LD and Godz covering for Grant I can kinda understand... I can understand the instinctive nature of believing your popular friend who tells you they were going through a court case but it's been sorted out and all is good. It suggests naivety and ignorance, which they are not the only ones guilty of in the world.
Please explain to me how I have slandered anyone in my post.
On June 24 2020 06:32 Artisreal wrote: Just as stated it's an attempt of an overview on LD of the available information. Being expanded as the info surfaces. Which should be used as grounds for the discussion.
Quoting because this is pretty much what I was going to write.
Also should add that we are fine with our staff discussing any of this and giving their views/input. We've never made an attempt to censor our staff and they are always free to say what they feel. With that being said the OP/thread itself is just meant to be an accumulation of all the info, not an Op-ed.
We also try to not censor our community either, but in this case someone made a clear shitpost that was an attempt to derail the discussion. I don't believe we were wrong in banning him. If you still feel otherwise feel free to make a thread about it in website feedback.
On June 24 2020 06:29 Sapaio wrote: I just want to understand something here. So the post and discuession you link to is not to support your views on the subject.
What we support is that sexual harassment is not okay. Rape is not okay.
You know what i mean, u can link to some twitter page and do not claim it as your view or accusation. It so easy.
Please if you think someone is a doing sexual harassment say it and rape say it. Also please proof it that is very very import part of saying sexual harassment and rape. And accept if someone makes joke of the accusation of those if not PROVEN. Please think if someone said you sexual harassed them without more proof then a blog and an angry boyfriend saying the same thing.
This thread is also not linked directly as a community news post, specifically because it is still a rapidly developing situation. I linked it in the Grant thread so that people wishing to discuss the larger situation had a place to.
Firebolt's post about LD and Godz covering for Grant concerns the one thing actually proven in court - the harassment and defamation of Llama. That is what LD and Godz are being accused of covering up. (It wasn't sexual harassment).
We can find the court case, but posting it would also dox Llama and I wish to avoid that - if she wants to publish it, she is welcome to, but that isn't my place (someone would also have to pay the court for a copy). I believe proof has been provided of the court case to some community members (I know slacks was asking for it at one point).
On June 24 2020 06:29 Sapaio wrote: I just want to understand something here. So the post and discuession you link to is not to support your views on the subject.
What we support is that sexual harassment is not okay. Rape is not okay.
You know what i mean, u can link to some twitter page and do not claim it as your view or accusation. It so easy.
Please if you think someone is a doing sexual harassment say it and rape say it. Also please proof it that is very very import part of saying sexual harassment and rape. And except if someone makes jokesof the accusation of those if not PROVEN. Please think if someone said you sexual harassed them without more proof then a blog and an angry boyfriend saying the same thing.
We are not a court. We have no way of proving these things, nor are we trying to. We are simply collecting the commentary in the OP so that everyone can peruse them conveniently. When the accused persons post their responses, we strive to include those too, whether defensive or regretful. If you have spotted a response somewhere on this matter that we have missed, feel free to link it here for discussion as well.
If you want my personal opinions, it is that Grant is guilty. Meanwhile, I think that GoDz and LD, who have been accused for protecting him, mistakenly did so out of ignorance instead of malice. I think that Zyori's situation is completely different and came out of an unfortunate misunderstanding that left both persons feeling awful. I have no comment on the Redeye matter since there is very little information out there about him.
On June 24 2020 05:31 Sapaio wrote: I am a upset a user got tempored banned because he/she made a ironic post about sexual harassment. I can see that being a being a wrongful act but slander is also a criminal act so i think this post as such could be banned. Why can u blame people of sexual harassment without any proof without more than twitter or other social media post. So i am going to report this post if this is going to be the case of justice.
Edit,; turns out that i can not report this post. Because some people on the staff can just make criminal accusation without any real proof and ban people that disagree or does not discues in a way they like. What kind of forum is this
Literally no one on our staff has even slightly made any kind of criminal accusation. This thread is for the discussion of info that is publically available on reddit/twitter. None of the accusations are from us in any way.
Ok if this is just a discussion thread. Then if you ban one person of making comments and not another person post. We must presume that you would favor one persons views over another. For me you ban an post that is ironic and satirical but not post that are slandar. So I would presume that liquid support this view and since you started the thread banning people disagreeing it seems obivious
Please show me where the slander is.
LD and Godz covering for Grant I can kinda understand... I can understand the instinctive nature of believing your popular friend who tells you they were going through a court case but it's been sorted out and all is good. It suggests naivety and ignorance, which they are not the only ones guilty of in the world.
Please explain to me how I have slandered anyone in my post.
Saying LD and Godz covering up for criminal acts is slandar. What is so hard to understand about that.
In it, a person who everyone now realises successfully convinced a court that Grant was harassing her, reveals that several persons including LD and GoDz covered for Grant. When I say cover for Grant, they supported him, decided to hire him and work with him despite the accusations from another person. Sheever is quoted making a flippant comment suggesting that Grant needs the help in court.
How much of this is real? I don't know, but it seems more and more real as more information is revealed. And if anything, my position is to defend LD, GoDz, and a lot of others who were involved, because they were probably all ignorant or blind to what was truly going on. Grant apparently was telling them all that he won the court case (https://i.imgur.com/rM6gxTV.png). Do I think they were criminals? No. But I think they were ignorant.
Would I make the same mistake if I was in their position? I might have. But hopefully now I won't any more.
edit: Apparently a direct quote of GoDz, which I would say is covering for Grant:
Godz: Hey just chill! Nothings changing lets just all enjoy the hub and not stress out! Grant is harmless in person and will probably just avoid you knowing him if the two of you have had beef online before, so I wouldn't worry too much about being there in person with him.
For me when i read this post it was just accusation and nothing but Grant admitting it. So thanks for showing me the actually proof and admission. My problem is the accusation without the proof. So would really like the proof in a link next to it, especially in these king of cases. As it can ruin people life even if proven wrong later. I know person accused even if it was rightfully but the impact is pretty big so u need to be sure.
Purge is the only male personality that said things that I fully respected. There was real acknowledgement and accountability that came from him which I honestly don't think was there for anybody else.
He was aware enough of the fact Grant had bullied him in the past and that Grant's redemption era lacked him taking responsibility for bullying him. It just bothered me listening to some of the other talent talk about Grant like this completely blindsided them or they never knew about some of the other things he was up to. Um, he was very clearly racist and they all admitted he was "mean to them" which is their way of admitting he had bullied them all in the past pretty much.
At some point, people have to confront the fact that Grant was far beyond redemption even before the rape accusations. The way he bullied literally everyone in the scene at some point, his racism, and his blatant misogyny. These should've sank his career yet he managed to thrive until he got #MeToo'd. I'm not part of the Dota scene or anything but I have given into Grant's redemption arc and shame on me for ever thinking that he was worth it. I've felt regret over enjoying his casting since he boycotted the ChongChing Major over Kuku's racism scandal so this isn't new for me.
How was Grant so easily forgiven by people, including myself, without taking a shred of real responsibility for his actions? All he did was play a game of switching faces to more broadcast friendly version and we bought it all. He didn't make amends to the women he harassed for years, he didn't do anything to make up for his racism, and he apparently was still fighting Llama in court the entire time instead of letting his victim win. Fucking hell. What real signs did this guy show that he was actually changing for us to be fooled by it?
Hotbid came out about his past incident as well (not related to esports). It’s good for people to share so that others in similar situations can find some semblance of strength to find or ask for help, to seek closure and move forward. https://twitter.com/hot_bid/status/1275552801037451264?s=21
On June 24 2020 06:50 Nevuk wrote: This thread is also not linked directly as a community news post, specifically because it is still a rapidly developing situation.
So maybe be a bit more patient before putting things like the Zyori situation in an OP. I don't know the guy, I don't follow the personalities of the scene closely, but from reading/watching it (and in general) in my opinion you should think atleast twice before spreading such things and putting people on the pranger, especially in "rapidly developing situations". Because even if you add "mitigating" stuff later on to the op, you irreversibly did damage to that person.
Just gonna come in here and say that I perma-banned ninoff. There's definitely a discussion to be had around this subject but he went way too far with his alt-right/incel shit. In case of feedback, please use the website feedback forum.
On June 24 2020 06:50 Nevuk wrote: This thread is also not linked directly as a community news post, specifically because it is still a rapidly developing situation.
So maybe be a bit more patient before putting things like the Zyori situation in an OP. I don't know the guy, I don't follow the personalities of the scene closely, but from reading/watching it (and in general) in my opinion you should think atleast twice before spreading such things and putting people on the pranger, especially in "rapidly developing situations". Because even if you add "mitigating" stuff later on to the op, you irreversibly did damage to that person.
I added it originally. Zyori had already responded before I made the thread, and I noted it was much greyer than Grant's situation.
the mitigating circumstances was an example of what will happen if something emerges about one of the others (something like what I did with Zyori). No one besides Redeye and Grant are openly being accused of anything truly heinous so far, though (killerpigeon's spreading rumors about moxxi is a lower level). Zyori was, but people seem to buy his defense for the most part (people includes me).
To be clear, these were already out and being widely disseminated elsewhere. It was just a matter of time before someone opened a thread, and I'm trying to keep the op as unbiased as possible. More of these are coming out every day - we are honestly pretty late to have a thread on the topic (it started probably 2 days ago now).
On June 24 2020 06:14 NInoff wrote: @Firebolt145 About the WIcked situation - so you also assumed that he drugged her? OMG. Then because she heard that someone said that he hates her and you get that for a fact? Maybe he does after she was ignoring him for months, and he feels ashamed rejected and embarrassed. Maybe the friend made that up. Maybe the friend told some lies to Grant also.How do you know that he remembers something? How do you know what happened, and if anything happened? How do you know that he drugged her? Because that is the only case that he did something wrong. I've seen people pass out after 50ml of whiskey.
If someone gets drunk because the drink was "really fucking good" and someone drank it in one go and doesnt remember, its not true that someone else did that to him/her. If you get drunk to a point that you don't remember and then you have fears about what you did is not someone elses fault.... and did you embarass your self? - almost certainly. DId you have sex with other people? Probably... Most people did that in their youth,a nd if you are ashamed of it don't get drunk as simple as that.
See i too assume that she got drunk the same way many people assumed that he drugged her.... pointless argument . Since i don't know Wicked i'm going to assume one more thing - since her dota career is not that good she decided to move in to golddigging. ( Wicked don't worry i don't really think that just making a point) Assumptions in cases like that are useless. As is the whole discussion without proof.
I have made no assumptions whatsoever. This thread isn't about assuming things. This thread is about discussing the allegations that were made on Twitter by many people at once. The response to this was Grant being fired from EG, everyone distancing themselves from him, and Grant accepting some level of responsibility and leaving the scene permanently. All this strongly suggests that some part of these allegations are true. Whether or not it was due to drugs, or drinking, or whether someone said something specific or not, the pattern that comes out from these allegations is that Grant took sexual advantage of someone.
While it is normal to connect lack of response to admitance of guilt, it could also be that he's in complete shut-down mode. There isn't a "his side of the story" here, it doesn't surprise me given how fast this all went down, and this saddens me. It's not unheard of for people who are the target of a cancel campaign to be unable to respond to anything as his life has been turned upside down, his community disavowed him and his carrer ended. Maybe he was, in fact, a sexist jerk and maybe he still is, but I'm not confortable making this judgement.
Although it is a feature-length youtube video, for anyone who has the time I would suggest watching Contrapoint's take on canceling. The first half hour she talks in general terms bout canceling, the following hour she mainly gets into her personal experience being cancelled within the trans community.
I appreciate slacks' response being emotional and him embracing the discomfort of being emotional. In my opinion, he doesn't say anything particularly compelling or inspiring, but I appreciate him doing -anything-.
Kyle, on the other hand, is remarkably well-spoken and provides a surprisingly healthy perspective.
I'm hoping for meaningful change from these debacles, and hope people feel safe coming forward with their stories, and people are willing to listen to them and not make fucking shitty incel shitposts or the like.
On June 24 2020 09:21 Fleetfeet wrote: I appreciate slacks' response being emotional and him embracing the discomfort of being emotional. In my opinion, he doesn't say anything particularly compelling or inspiring, but I appreciate him doing -anything-.
Kyle, on the other hand, is remarkably well-spoken and provides a surprisingly healthy perspective.
I'm hoping for meaningful change from these debacles, and hope people feel safe coming forward with their stories, and people are willing to listen to them and not make fucking shitty incel shitposts or the like.
TBH the crazy thing about Kyles post is how what he wrote isn't just common sense to most people.
EPT
