EPTSexual Harassment In the Dota Scene - Page 4
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We understand that this topic evokes strong feelings. In the interest of maintaining a necessary and productive discussion, we will be taking a strong stance against posters that clearly do not contribute to this aim. Dishonest and bad faith arguments, victim blaming, and attacks on other users, will be strictly moderated. A post which only serves to muddy the waters and dishonestly portray the nature of assault and harassment (and corresponding accusations) is also unwelcome. This is a serious topic. Please treat it as such. If you have feedback on how we should approach this topic on LiquidDota, please see here. | ||
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TomatoBisque
United States6290 Posts
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Fleetfeet
Canada2854 Posts
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harodihg
Japan1344 Posts
On June 24 2020 10:20 Fleetfeet wrote: Idk people are raised on all kinds of fucked up belief systems, including "sex is a thing you should be ashamed of", "Sex is a trophy", "Dating is a competitive event", "Men are tough and only know anger", "Women are sensitive and emotional", "My needs come before anyone else's" etc etc etc. 'Common' sense is a lot less pure than we might hope for, and while most people don't -want- to hurt anyone, most people also aren't actively considering whether or not they're hurting anyone through action or inaction. damn. that's literally me  I still feel this way | ||
mustaju
Estonia4505 Posts
I know way too many women who have been sexually harassed, this feels like a gut punch. I feel dirty just imagining how the game I love indirectly led to these experiences. Thank you mods for taking a hard line on incel bullshit like assuming that the multiple witnesses only do this for the attention. Exactly this kind of shit is what makes the scene so toxic for women to get into. Also shout out to Kyle and Nahaz for acting like decent human beings. | ||
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Emnjay808
United States10666 Posts
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juuto
809 Posts
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
On June 24 2020 10:28 harodihg wrote: damn. that's literally me I still feel this wayCulturally it is a big problem. A close friend of mine in college got raped in grad school, and she told me her parents literally told her it was her fault and mostly cut her out of their life. Even a few years ago there were large swaths of the US that thought women had to be tricked into having sex as a general rule, and that it was cool to do so. Ie, that if it happened it meant the woman wanted it to happen but was just being coy. That can be the case, if that is the expectation of both people going into the situation. If you aren't dating or something similar, that shouldn't be the expectation, though. Even then a discussion about what is ok and when it is ok should come pretty early on. Different people have different boundaries. Our culture making a lot of this "unsexy" to be verbal about doesn't help. I mean, it isn't sexy to ask "can I do x?" before doing everything, but it is waaaay less sexy to accidentally assault someone. If asking "can I do this?" results in a no, you shouldn't be doing it. If it would put them in an awkward spot to say no, you shouldn't even ask (this is why workplace hookups are a general no-no). If they say no, don't keep asking. You've expressed interest, and if their decision changes they'll let you know without asking further. | ||
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nVme
952 Posts
and he is getting rekt on social media | ||
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FuzzyJAM
Scotland9300 Posts
I suppose it shouldn't be any sort of surprise that this happens, but I'm heartbroken. I don't know how anyone could be anything else right now. | ||
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Artisreal
Germany9235 Posts
On June 24 2020 09:21 Fleetfeet wrote: I appreciate slacks' response being emotional and him embracing the discomfort of being emotional. In my opinion, he doesn't say anything particularly compelling or inspiring, but I appreciate him doing -anything-. Kyle, on the other hand, is remarkably well-spoken and provides a surprisingly healthy perspective. (Link HERE because it was broken previously) I'm hoping for meaningful change from these debacles, and hope people feel safe coming forward with their stories, and people are willing to listen to them and not make fucking shitty incel shitposts or the like. Thank you for the link! I think slacks response is important precisely because it is not particularly articulate or deep. but rather honest and personal and simple. The question why the fuck can't we be nice to people is as simple as difficult. Acknowledging that it can be hard to have empathy but also essential to have it as to give a fuxk to try and have it is as simple as it gets. That makes it so powerful in my opinion! | ||
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Fleetfeet
Canada2854 Posts
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cecek
Czech Republic18921 Posts
Also, spare me with the crying emotional videos bullshit please. Or the virtue signalling shit on twitter. Especially people who were close to Grant now acting all surprised. Even people who apparently helped him cover it up. Fuck all of them. | ||
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Artisreal
Germany9235 Posts
Or please, elaborate because I don't know what you're intending to say. | ||
TheEmulator
28104 Posts
On June 24 2020 18:01 cecek wrote: I dont want to be insensitive, buy is Scantzor 'born male and identifiea as a woman' kinda person? I hope thats an ok way to phrase that. Im confused because Llama was apparently a lesbian, and apparently Scantzor has been her partner for like 7 years. But from the twitter picture, Scantzor looks like a regular guy? With a beard and all? Also, spare me with the crying emotional videos bullshit please. Or the virtue signalling shit on twitter. Especially people who were close to Grant now acting all surprised. Even people who apparently helped him cover it up. Fuck all of them. I think Scant was just posting that on behalf of llamas partner https://twitter.com/scantzor/status/1275485495284445189?s=21 | ||
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Sr18
Netherlands1141 Posts
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cecek
Czech Republic18921 Posts
On June 24 2020 18:08 TheEmulator wrote: I think Scant was just posting that on behalf of llamas partner https://twitter.com/scantzor/status/1275485495284445189?s=21 Ah, that makes sense. I only read the twitlonger before. | ||
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TheEmulator
28104 Posts
On June 24 2020 18:15 cecek wrote: Ah, that makes sense. I only read the twitlonger before. Fair mistake to make. Also to elaborate, amber is male to female trans. Which makes her/llama lesbian. The politically and in my opinion humanly correct way to refer to her would just be female. | ||
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FuzzyJAM
Scotland9300 Posts
On June 24 2020 18:01 cecek wrote: I dont want to be insensitive, buy is Scantzor 'born male and identifiea as a woman' kinda person? I hope thats an ok way to phrase that. Im confused because Llama was apparently a lesbian, and apparently Scantzor has been her partner for like 7 years. But from the twitter picture, Scantzor looks like a regular guy? With a beard and all? Also, spare me with the crying emotional videos bullshit please. Or the virtue signalling shit on twitter. Especially people who were close to Grant now acting all surprised. Even people who apparently helped him cover it up. Fuck all of them. The preferred phrasing is generally "transgender", and "male to female" (MtF) for those assigned male at birth who identify as a woman. As to your other point, I think it's really important for victims to be shown solidarity. People need to be told that they are heard and supported and that people are committed to making the scene better. You're right that such comments shouldn't be the centre - rather, we should focus on the suffering and bravery of those coming forward (and those who feel unable to), along with demands for improvement in the scene in terms of kicking out abusers and stopping enablers. But I think they still need to happen. I'd also note that you don't know what someone has gone through regarding sexual abuse or why they react as they do. I'm not going to get into specifics because even if it was technically made public years ago it was done so very obscurely and it's not my place to talk, but I know at least one of the "virtue signalling" men has suffered serious sexual assault - they didn't mention it in their response, but that and other connections to abuse will inform part of how people react, whether they choose to disclose it or not, so I'd hesitate to criticise people without very good reason. However, for some people we do have good reason to criticise. At least some of the supportive comments are clearly disingenuous and should not be posted until a serious acceptance of blame and apology is forthcoming. Those people need to look in the mirror, apologise, and explain how they will be more accountable and take harassment more seriously going forward. What's needed from enablers is not false shock and sympathy, but an apology and either an exit from the scene or demonstration that at least going forward they'll use their power to protect victims rather than perpetrators. | ||
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Dracolich70
Denmark3820 Posts
I am not trying to argue, that dressing up in a sexual way is an invitation it is not, even if some guys feel it is, but the routine of using sex to further one's career is something I never understood. It shows a lack of integrity and pride, and that perhaps showcases some inherent social structures, if not genetic ones, that are adhered to on a subconscious level, and as such, these things coming to surface could perhaps make a change to something of higher value than a value exchange; you scratch my back, I scratch yours. It clearly shows a failed norm being raised into childhood/young adulthood. Society is changing, and the "nerd" scene is so much larger than it was back in the early ages, where 99% were male, and one stereotype. Children mimic each other, and some that haven't had a proper code of conduct as a foundation from their parents, do not have the tools to see if abuse, harassment is wrong. The sexist remarks from boys, who have an awkward relationship with the female sex, to the opposite of people trying to protect said women, which is pretty great, but also has the unfortunate outcome of disempowering women. The truth of (some) men are creeps, and (some) women uses their sex as an advancement and attraction towards people that are in power, is probably somewhere in the middle of blame and showcase - if nothing else, that in some countries they are still backwards. It is good that these things spread awareness, reflection and social change. It is a gigantic obstacle, because completely different cultures are met in one global sphere, but some thing probably has to be homogenic; treat people with respect. And it is probably also problematic that in some cases both sexes learn about sex from porn, which has a very one sided and low faceted view on sex and the roles of each gender in that "relationship". If the deeper laying issues drown in witch hunts, we have not gotten much further. A lot of parents have deeply failed to monitor or raise their kids with good values and have left much to society as a responsibility. A social society that has anxiety issues raising matters of taboo and calling a spade a spade. | ||
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Dracolich70
Denmark3820 Posts
On June 24 2020 04:51 KalWarkov wrote:woman having to be "on guard" just playing from home as a casual gamer feels pretty stupid to me. every gamer has to do that in online games if they are sensitive. ppl wish cancer upon me every month or "fucked my mom last night". the thing is, if you get into gaming, you should be aware these things are unavoidable. If anything, you learn to build a thick skin from these verbal things. Trying to advocate that inappropriate behavior such as abuse and harassment rest on either grow a thick skin or leave is sort of advocating that it is okay. It is not. It is imperative that you show that it is not tolerated, and it isn't. Trying to indulge in zones of protection of either grow a thick skin or get the fuck out, is advocating it shouldn't change.it used to be an enviornment of "get flamed, flame back harder" and things were fine. but nowdays ppl get into that enviornment and expect it to change. wanna hear my honest opinion: if you hate the enviornment, how about you choose a different one instead of trying to change it so badly? Not everything has to be for everyone. I'll just take football as an example. you won't be able to watch a football game in a pub with ppl swearing on each other and "discussing" certain situations without filter. you don't like these things? stay away from it. Try to PC that culture. you won't. dota used to be like that for me, but its changing. and it's def less fun for me partly because of that Your analogy of an environment with people swearing at a screen, and using it as a comparison to personal harassment and abuse is either either disingenuous, or reason to say you don't understand anything you are saying or you are willing to say anything to uphold a culture that has been allowed to prolong, for the very reasons you yourself advocate as "That is just how it is - deal with it". | ||
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