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Kips. Would love to read what you guys think about this.
Quite problematic. A pattern of doing it would indicate that Zyori knew what he was doing and had a pattern Adding to OP.
What did he do, actually? He invited her to TI5 afterparty, tried to see if there's some feelings, got rejected. Some time later tried again when he was in the same town and got rejected again, end of story. I've done stuff like that, a couple times. Fuck, the majority of heterosexual men have done that. I don't think I did anything wrong. Am I problematic? Am I a rapist? Because the first girl called Zyori a rapist and Kips is now saying she's right.
the fact that you can get called out on that five years after it happened and potentially lose your career really fucking scares me.
Because the majority does something it makes it right? There is enough historic precedent to quickly throw that statement out of the window.
If you use your position of power to your personal benefit to the detriment of others you do not deserve the power. Don't you agree?
Agreed. Zyori is just close to borderline creepy with some of his “courting” actions. This would sum up a lot of how people initiate dating. In the girl’s perspective, if they actually fancied said courter then all accounts of creepiness would be unfounded
Kips. Would love to read what you guys think about this.
Quite problematic. A pattern of doing it would indicate that Zyori knew what he was doing and had a pattern Adding to OP.
What did he do, actually? He invited her to TI5 afterparty, tried to see if there's some feelings, got rejected. Some time later tried again when he was in the same town and got rejected again, end of story. I've done stuff like that, a couple times. Fuck, the majority of heterosexual men have done that. I don't think I did anything wrong. Am I problematic? Am I a rapist? Because the first girl called Zyori a rapist and Kips is now saying she's right.
the fact that you can get called out on that five years after it happened and potentially lose your career really fucking scares me.
Because the majority does something it makes it right? There is enough historic precedent to quickly throw that statement out of the window.
If you use your position of power to your personal benefit to the detriment of others you do not deserve the power. Don't you agree?
Because the majority does something doesn't make it right, of course. Shouldn't have said that, that's a bullshit argument from me. What I should've said is that I don't see it as wrong with my moral compass.
How was Zoyri in power in the Kips story? Kips herself said she wasn't even interested in working in the scene. It's the equivalent of inviting a girl to dinner or to the movies, on a date. In the other story, Zyori even asked someone else to find out if the girl was single and into him and she said yes.
The other bit about power I don't really get. Where's the personal benefit to the detriment of others? What does it even mean 'to deserve power'? And what power are we talking about? I would understand in a work environment, that's definitely tricky. But otherwise? Is better financial situation power? Physical strength?
On June 25 2020 06:16 cecek wrote: The other bit about power I don't really get. Where's the personal benefit to the detriment of others? What does it even mean 'to deserve power'? And what power are we talking about? I would understand in a work environment, that's definitely tricky. But otherwise? Is better financial situation power? Physical strength?
I don't know the full Zyori story so I can't comment, but I would like to address your last paragraph. It is hard to explain if you haven't experienced it. Even without a power imbalance, it is difficult to say no when you are a kind/soft person or a people pleaser. You can say no, but if you're not absolutely convincing and firm on it, the perpetrator can take it as an indication that you can be persuaded into changing your answer. Even then, a hard no is not always effective. Physical strength comes into play too, yes. A feeling of paying back a favour is also a factor. I would give an example but I don't really want to give away my personal life in a public forum. It isn't merely a black and white situation. When someone with power or status or social clout gives you attention, it does shift the imbalance in their favour. You can feel pressured into pleasing them, or going along with their requests because you think it would reflect poorly on you, or would impress them enough to want to associate with you. When you aren't expecting it, you tend to not have enough time to process what is going on and you panic. Deer in headlights. Your brain kicks into overdrive and that hesitation is enough to allow the perpetrator to sway you.
I'm ashamed that I have been persuaded into many things I wish I had the courage to stand up to. As I say, it is hard to explain when you have not been in that situation.
Kips. Would love to read what you guys think about this.
Quite problematic. A pattern of doing it would indicate that Zyori knew what he was doing and had a pattern Adding to OP.
It is also problematic that these two women have the sense of feeling indebted when receiving favors from men in "power"/power. It's hard not to think some of this pressure they feel comes from their own perception that there must be some sort of trade; quid pro quo. Of course it doesn't absolve him, if he is using his power to pull strings in order to gain some of said trade, but it seems like these women feel that a debt is implied in favors by themselves, if it furthers their careers.
Him seeking Kips in NL is disturbing, though, after a no. As is it that women feel they are indebted sexually and it shows how backwards some countries still are. The other woman was clearly on the wrong path, and as horrible she must feel, her mindset in itself was pretty horrible.
The point of Kips' story isn't that Zyori had power over her, it is that she recognized the behavior from the story as being similar to how he treated her. This undercuts his main "I didn't know that was what I was doing" defense a lot.
Honestly, these people need to learn to use tinder or some goddamn dating websites.
On June 25 2020 08:49 Nevuk wrote: The point of Kips' story isn't that Zyori had power over her, it is that she recognized the behavior from the story as being similar to how he treated her. This undercuts his main "I didn't know that was what I was doing" defense a lot.
Honestly, these people need to learn to use tinder or some goddamn dating websites.
In fairness, he sounded like he had no idea that was what he was doing until his stream the other day. So I wouldn't be surprised if he's been doing that on-and-off for years without realizing he was in a position of power. I think given that he had hiring power it was incredibly naive of him to not be self-aware of that position, and I think more an issue that no one ever thought to point it out to him or whatnot. Then again, I don't know if I would have done much beyond raise an eyebrow despite personally being paranoid as heck about "office relationships."
So anyways, who else actually still has hopes that anything will change in the Dota 2 scene?
God this is a depressing post. Not because of what Universe wrote, but because of the stark pessimism when linking people not getting it.
People don't get it. That's the fucking point. For every person or man that has the ability to begin to empathize with the problems people face fighting against a 'boy's club', there are three people that don't recognize it as a boy's club, or see a problem whatsoever. I don't need to tell you this, you -know- this, which just makes your defeatist attitude even more depressing. Yes, Universe doesn't get it or doesn't seem to get it. No, that is not a critical, unforseen roadblock in the path to progress.
Hi. I'm CisHet, and male. I understand and empathize with a lot of the problems that queer culture and feminism fight, and have in the past been an active ally to those groups where I can. Despite knowing a lot already, I'm always willing to listen to more and understand better than I already do. I don't know who you are, or what you're about, but I do know you've been a loud proponent of women's rights and have clearly been frustrated by some of the discussion here.
I want to be an ally to the cause you are passionate about. I want to be part of a push for meaningful change. Not because I get to talk about it afterwards and pat myself on the back, but because this shit is disgusting and shouldn't happen anywhere near as prevalently as it does. If YOU want to push for meaningful change, start doing that. I don't want to take away from your anger. I don't want to take away from your frustration. I get that you're frustrated and those are valid emotions, but they alone are not a path to meaningful change.
Again, shit I'm pretty sure you already know. The fight's long. Keep fighting. You're not alone.
On June 25 2020 06:16 cecek wrote: The other bit about power I don't really get. Where's the personal benefit to the detriment of others? What does it even mean 'to deserve power'? And what power are we talking about? I would understand in a work environment, that's definitely tricky. But otherwise? Is better financial situation power? Physical strength?
I don't know the full Zyori story so I can't comment, but I would like to address your last paragraph. It is hard to explain if you haven't experienced it. Even without a power imbalance, it is difficult to say no when you are a kind/soft person or a people pleaser. You can say no, but if you're not absolutely convincing and firm on it, the perpetrator can take it as an indication that you can be persuaded into changing your answer. Even then, a hard no is not always effective. Physical strength comes into play too, yes. A feeling of paying back a favour is also a factor. I would give an example but I don't really want to give away my personal life in a public forum. It isn't merely a black and white situation. When someone with power or status or social clout gives you attention, it does shift the imbalance in their favour. You can feel pressured into pleasing them, or going along with their requests because you think it would reflect poorly on you, or would impress them enough to want to associate with you. When you aren't expecting it, you tend to not have enough time to process what is going on and you panic. Deer in headlights. Your brain kicks into overdrive and that hesitation is enough to allow the perpetrator to sway you.
I'm ashamed that I have been persuaded into many things I wish I had the courage to stand up to. As I say, it is hard to explain when you have not been in that situation.
If you're starting to say that people asking you out are in a power place, you have serious issues. It can be nerve wracking to ask people out, while you can just say "no sorry, but flattered". If the guy tries to keep you then it's an issue. Also every single person in the world had people asking them stuff and answered "no".
On June 25 2020 06:16 cecek wrote: The other bit about power I don't really get. Where's the personal benefit to the detriment of others? What does it even mean 'to deserve power'? And what power are we talking about? I would understand in a work environment, that's definitely tricky. But otherwise? Is better financial situation power? Physical strength?
I don't know the full Zyori story so I can't comment, but I would like to address your last paragraph. It is hard to explain if you haven't experienced it. Even without a power imbalance, it is difficult to say no when you are a kind/soft person or a people pleaser. You can say no, but if you're not absolutely convincing and firm on it, the perpetrator can take it as an indication that you can be persuaded into changing your answer. Even then, a hard no is not always effective. Physical strength comes into play too, yes. A feeling of paying back a favour is also a factor. I would give an example but I don't really want to give away my personal life in a public forum. It isn't merely a black and white situation. When someone with power or status or social clout gives you attention, it does shift the imbalance in their favour. You can feel pressured into pleasing them, or going along with their requests because you think it would reflect poorly on you, or would impress them enough to want to associate with you. When you aren't expecting it, you tend to not have enough time to process what is going on and you panic. Deer in headlights. Your brain kicks into overdrive and that hesitation is enough to allow the perpetrator to sway you.
I'm ashamed that I have been persuaded into many things I wish I had the courage to stand up to. As I say, it is hard to explain when you have not been in that situation.
If you're starting to say that people asking you out are in a power place, you have serious issues. It can be nerve wracking to ask people out, while you can just say "no sorry, but flattered". If the guy tries to keep you then it's an issue. Also every single person in the world had people asking them stuff and answered "no".
No, I wasn't talking about being asked out, and yes I do have serious issues. I was talking more about being coerced into doing sexual things, and that when you are saying no to a relative stranger (ESPECIALLY in a face-to-face, one-on-one situation), it is hard to predict how they will react. Thus it sometimes seems easier to go along with their wishes/compromise than risk the fallout of rejecting them - be it physically or socially. All I was trying to describe was that a power imbalance can be a lot more subtle than people realise, and I am talking from my own experiences since I am not qualified to talk about others. Yes, I am a pushover. I was raised to please other people and it is a fucking hard mindset to break out of.
Edit: Regarding 'just say no', it would be lovely if saying no were that simple and easy. I've been looking at the people defending Demon and they're accusing the victim of not saying no forcefully enough that he understood she wasn't into him, or that she was playing hard to get. Even though her story stated she said no multiple times before he cornered her in a small room. This is the kind of shit we need to break. We need women to feel comfortable saying no, and we need to not defend or excuse behaviour like this. Regarding having serious issues... it is also part of the problem. We are talking about generations of women who were raised to be push-overs and people pleasers. Luckily that is changing now, but my generation in my home country has thousands of cases like mine because we were raised wrong and brainwashed into thinking that this is how society works and we just need to tolerate it. It's shameful.
About this imbalance of power, I don't see this BTS is some sort of Powerhouse it is a bunch of Nerds making there hobby for a living. Also don't think any of persons work for BTS, please correct me if i am wrong.
What i think happened is that Zyori didn't see himself as some sort of powerful dota person, and like many other guys is attracted to girls that are pretty and likes games. This is because he thinks they have something in common. So he invites the new girls out to something they both like and try to impress them. This is properly the way Zyori feels most comfortable with because this show of what he likes and work with to a person that is into the scene. So he continues this pattern.
I am not sure how he pressured her to sex in the house (can change my mind on this). But i think if you have been naked in bed together and said ok but him laying about you to having sex together (again does a man wanting to lie about having sex with a girl, sound that powerful or like a person with low selfestem?) and then be invited to stay with him in a room in a house not sound like a pretty strong signal that he wants to have sex with you? Then you going there because you want to meet the other people that you find cool. Having sex with him out of some sort of obligation.
I get you regret having sex without wanting to have it with a person, but for me it sounds like you put the blame and the responsibility solely on the man a call it rape. So that you can feel better about your self and don't have to take ownership of sexual behavior that you are not proud to have committed.
On June 25 2020 06:16 cecek wrote: The other bit about power I don't really get. Where's the personal benefit to the detriment of others? What does it even mean 'to deserve power'? And what power are we talking about? I would understand in a work environment, that's definitely tricky. But otherwise? Is better financial situation power? Physical strength?
I don't know the full Zyori story so I can't comment, but I would like to address your last paragraph. It is hard to explain if you haven't experienced it. Even without a power imbalance, it is difficult to say no when you are a kind/soft person or a people pleaser. You can say no, but if you're not absolutely convincing and firm on it, the perpetrator can take it as an indication that you can be persuaded into changing your answer. Even then, a hard no is not always effective. Physical strength comes into play too, yes. A feeling of paying back a favour is also a factor. I would give an example but I don't really want to give away my personal life in a public forum. It isn't merely a black and white situation. When someone with power or status or social clout gives you attention, it does shift the imbalance in their favour. You can feel pressured into pleasing them, or going along with their requests because you think it would reflect poorly on you, or would impress them enough to want to associate with you. When you aren't expecting it, you tend to not have enough time to process what is going on and you panic. Deer in headlights. Your brain kicks into overdrive and that hesitation is enough to allow the perpetrator to sway you.
I'm ashamed that I have been persuaded into many things I wish I had the courage to stand up to. As I say, it is hard to explain when you have not been in that situation.
If you're starting to say that people asking you out are in a power place, you have serious issues. It can be nerve wracking to ask people out, while you can just say "no sorry, but flattered". If the guy tries to keep you then it's an issue. Also every single person in the world had people asking them stuff and answered "no".
No, I wasn't talking about being asked out, and yes I do have serious issues. I was talking more about being coerced into doing sexual things, and that when you are saying no to a relative stranger (ESPECIALLY in a face-to-face, one-on-one situation), it is hard to predict how they will react. Thus it sometimes seems easier to go along with their wishes/compromise than risk the fallout of rejecting them - be it physically or socially. All I was trying to describe was that a power imbalance can be a lot more subtle than people realise, and I am talking from my own experiences since I am not qualified to talk about others. Yes, I am a pushover. I was raised to please other people and it is a fucking hard mindset to break out of.
Edit: Regarding 'just say no', it would be lovely if saying no were that simple and easy. I've been looking at the people defending Demon and they're accusing the victim of not saying no forcefully enough that he understood she wasn't into him, or that she was playing hard to get. Even though her story stated she said no multiple times before he cornered her in a small room. This is the kind of shit we need to break. We need women to feel comfortable saying no, and we need to not defend or excuse behaviour like this. Regarding having serious issues... it is also part of the problem. We are talking about generations of women who were raised to be push-overs and people pleasers. Luckily that is changing now, but my generation in my home country has thousands of cases like mine because we were raised wrong and brainwashed into thinking that this is how society works and we just need to tolerate it. It's shameful.
Your life-experience is very different then mine, so I think something in that story resonates with you that it doesnt with me. I dont know either of these girls, I dont know a ton about Zyori either, just his casting.
Asking a new girl out who enters your broader spectrum of acquaintances is not creepy. He had 0 influence or power over her. They weren't co-workers, they weren't subordinated to one another, she wasn't in danger of losing anything for saying no. She says with her own words "it would have been way harder [to say no] if I would have had a stake in the pro scene, but i didnt yet."
Inviting her to a party is not creepy, the only thing that could remotely be considered creepy in that second tweet is that after the first no, there was a second attempt, although I havent read close to enough about that situation to decide if there was anything wrong with it. If he got a very firm no and then showed up later at her actual house out of nowhere, unannounced, that could be creepy (or who knows, maybe some people would be impressed, idk). But I should think she would have mentioned it, if it went like that, since the intention was clear she wants to cast blame on him. Making a 2nd attempt later on after an initial no, in my opinion, is not wrong.
My current girlfriend of 3.5 years initially turned me down, then we got together about half a year later, and been together since.
I dont know Zyori, I dont vouch for him, all i'm saying, name-tags removed, that story has not a hint of sexual harassment or assault in it.
On June 25 2020 06:16 cecek wrote: The other bit about power I don't really get. Where's the personal benefit to the detriment of others? What does it even mean 'to deserve power'? And what power are we talking about? I would understand in a work environment, that's definitely tricky. But otherwise? Is better financial situation power? Physical strength?
I don't know the full Zyori story so I can't comment, but I would like to address your last paragraph. It is hard to explain if you haven't experienced it. Even without a power imbalance, it is difficult to say no when you are a kind/soft person or a people pleaser. You can say no, but if you're not absolutely convincing and firm on it, the perpetrator can take it as an indication that you can be persuaded into changing your answer. Even then, a hard no is not always effective. Physical strength comes into play too, yes. A feeling of paying back a favour is also a factor. I would give an example but I don't really want to give away my personal life in a public forum. It isn't merely a black and white situation. When someone with power or status or social clout gives you attention, it does shift the imbalance in their favour. You can feel pressured into pleasing them, or going along with their requests because you think it would reflect poorly on you, or would impress them enough to want to associate with you. When you aren't expecting it, you tend to not have enough time to process what is going on and you panic. Deer in headlights. Your brain kicks into overdrive and that hesitation is enough to allow the perpetrator to sway you.
I'm ashamed that I have been persuaded into many things I wish I had the courage to stand up to. As I say, it is hard to explain when you have not been in that situation.
If you're starting to say that people asking you out are in a power place, you have serious issues. It can be nerve wracking to ask people out, while you can just say "no sorry, but flattered". If the guy tries to keep you then it's an issue. Also every single person in the world had people asking them stuff and answered "no".
No, I wasn't talking about being asked out, and yes I do have serious issues. I was talking more about being coerced into doing sexual things, and that when you are saying no to a relative stranger (ESPECIALLY in a face-to-face, one-on-one situation), it is hard to predict how they will react. Thus it sometimes seems easier to go along with their wishes/compromise than risk the fallout of rejecting them - be it physically or socially. All I was trying to describe was that a power imbalance can be a lot more subtle than people realise, and I am talking from my own experiences since I am not qualified to talk about others. Yes, I am a pushover. I was raised to please other people and it is a fucking hard mindset to break out of.
Edit: Regarding 'just say no', it would be lovely if saying no were that simple and easy. I've been looking at the people defending Demon and they're accusing the victim of not saying no forcefully enough that he understood she wasn't into him, or that she was playing hard to get. Even though her story stated she said no multiple times before he cornered her in a small room. This is the kind of shit we need to break. We need women to feel comfortable saying no, and we need to not defend or excuse behaviour like this. Regarding having serious issues... it is also part of the problem. We are talking about generations of women who were raised to be push-overs and people pleasers. Luckily that is changing now, but my generation in my home country has thousands of cases like mine because we were raised wrong and brainwashed into thinking that this is how society works and we just need to tolerate it. It's shameful.
Your life-experience is very different then mine, so I think something in that story resonates with you that it doesnt with me. I dont know either of these girls, I dont know a ton about Zyori either, just his casting.
Asking a new girl out who enters your broader spectrum of acquaintances is not creepy. He had 0 influence or power over her. They weren't co-workers, they weren't subordinated to one another, she wasn't in danger of losing anything for saying no. She says with her own words "it would have been way harder [to say no] if I would have had a stake in the pro scene, but i didnt yet."
Inviting her to a party is not creepy, the only thing that could remotely be considered creepy in that second tweet is that after the first no, there was a second attempt, although I havent read close to enough about that situation to decide if there was anything wrong with it. If he got a very firm no and then showed up later at her actual house out of nowhere, unannounced, that could be creepy (or who knows, maybe some people would be impressed, idk). But I should think she would have mentioned it, if it went like that, since the intention was clear she wants to cast blame on him. Making a 2nd attempt later on after an initial no, in my opinion, is not wrong.
My current girlfriend of 3.5 years initially turned me down, then we got together about half a year later, and been together since.
I dont know Zyori, I dont vouch for him, all i'm saying, name-tags removed, that story has not a hint of sexual harassment or assault in it.
Sorry, I wasn't very clear but I wasn't talking about Zyori at all. I haven't read any statements from him or Ashni, I've only read people's opinions, which doesn't paint a full picture, and so I don't know the whole story and I'm not going to comment on it. My post was more angled at how some of these cases come up, and why they come up so often, why they happen at all.
(Personally I don't have a problem with someone being rejected and then asking again some time later if they feel there is sufficient evidence or encouragement from the person that you might get a different answer this time around. I do not disagree at all with what you are saying)
I feel like it's a battle between Ceb and Universe on who can decimate the remaining brain cells of the people who actually read or listen to the shit that they say. Ceb is an absolute scumbag of a human being and it's not a surprise to hear him spend the entire time talking about "mob mentality" and the danger of social justice.
My biggest takeaway from all this is that I'm super glad that I'm in no way a public figure, especially online, more specifically in the english speaking online space.
On June 25 2020 06:16 cecek wrote: The other bit about power I don't really get. Where's the personal benefit to the detriment of others? What does it even mean 'to deserve power'? And what power are we talking about? I would understand in a work environment, that's definitely tricky. But otherwise? Is better financial situation power? Physical strength?
I don't know the full Zyori story so I can't comment, but I would like to address your last paragraph. It is hard to explain if you haven't experienced it. Even without a power imbalance, it is difficult to say no when you are a kind/soft person or a people pleaser. You can say no, but if you're not absolutely convincing and firm on it, the perpetrator can take it as an indication that you can be persuaded into changing your answer. Even then, a hard no is not always effective. Physical strength comes into play too, yes. A feeling of paying back a favour is also a factor. I would give an example but I don't really want to give away my personal life in a public forum. It isn't merely a black and white situation. When someone with power or status or social clout gives you attention, it does shift the imbalance in their favour. You can feel pressured into pleasing them, or going along with their requests because you think it would reflect poorly on you, or would impress them enough to want to associate with you. When you aren't expecting it, you tend to not have enough time to process what is going on and you panic. Deer in headlights. Your brain kicks into overdrive and that hesitation is enough to allow the perpetrator to sway you.
I'm ashamed that I have been persuaded into many things I wish I had the courage to stand up to. As I say, it is hard to explain when you have not been in that situation.
If you're starting to say that people asking you out are in a power place, you have serious issues. It can be nerve wracking to ask people out, while you can just say "no sorry, but flattered". If the guy tries to keep you then it's an issue. Also every single person in the world had people asking them stuff and answered "no".
No, I wasn't talking about being asked out, and yes I do have serious issues. I was talking more about being coerced into doing sexual things, and that when you are saying no to a relative stranger (ESPECIALLY in a face-to-face, one-on-one situation), it is hard to predict how they will react. Thus it sometimes seems easier to go along with their wishes/compromise than risk the fallout of rejecting them - be it physically or socially. All I was trying to describe was that a power imbalance can be a lot more subtle than people realise, and I am talking from my own experiences since I am not qualified to talk about others. Yes, I am a pushover. I was raised to please other people and it is a fucking hard mindset to break out of.
Edit: Regarding 'just say no', it would be lovely if saying no were that simple and easy. I've been looking at the people defending Demon and they're accusing the victim of not saying no forcefully enough that he understood she wasn't into him, or that she was playing hard to get. Even though her story stated she said no multiple times before he cornered her in a small room. This is the kind of shit we need to break. We need women to feel comfortable saying no, and we need to not defend or excuse behaviour like this. Regarding having serious issues... it is also part of the problem. We are talking about generations of women who were raised to be push-overs and people pleasers. Luckily that is changing now, but my generation in my home country has thousands of cases like mine because we were raised wrong and brainwashed into thinking that this is how society works and we just need to tolerate it. It's shameful.
This post resonates with a recent article I read on this subject (parts of which I agreed with, parts of which I didn't because the person who wrote it is not particularly pleasant).
Kyle's essay on flirting is pretty much spot on for what should be defined as the minimum acceptable level of what you should do and more importantly what you should not do. Unacceptable behaviour is the patriarchies problem and responsibility to enforce. That means that it's the men in the persons life (parents, relatives, role models and friends) duty to inform on and when necessary enforce acceptable behaviour. As he puts it if you are out with your mates and your friend does X guess what, it's your problem as his friend.
However human interactions are complicated and flawed and even within the socially acceptable limits of flirting there is going to be a lot of situations where one part is not comfortable with the advances of the other.
I think you're point about a failure towards women is correct and I would attribute that to society and in particular the matriarchy. It seems that there are many women who attribute unpleasant feelings as something being "wrong" and if something is wrong it's not their fault so it has to be other person involved (usually a man). In reality of course you can't do something wrong unless the other person has informed you that they do not appreciate your advances.
Uncomfortable situations (that are still within the "norms") will happen as a basic part of life and in these situations both outcomes are unpleasant (be coerced and feel bad about what you do or say no). I think it is super important to stress that saying no to a person is difficult and unpleasant and can be affected by many different factors that makes it harder. "Just say no" is a bullshit slogan because it is not always easy.
This is the role for the matriarchy in strengthening and encouraging young women to deal with these feelings (not avoid them!) and being able to say no in a clear way and making them understand that some uncomfortable social situations are fact of life which neither has to be their fault or wrong.
It's also super important to stress to women (and men) that after you say no the socially acceptable boundary shrinks and the only acceptable thing to do as a rejected man is to immediately cease what you were doing. This goes both for flirting and afterwards. It doesn't have to be wrong to do/ask something socially acceptable that could potentially make a women uncomfortable but it is always wrong to continue with it after it has been made clear that it is not welcomed, and at that point you are sexually harassing (or even raping) someone.
As a counterpoint the patriarchy needs to help you men deal with this kind of rejection in a good way so that women don't have to fear their reaction and so that young men are less uncomfortable in approaching women. Just as anything else in life flirting is a learned skill that you need to practice to get good at (for both sides). It's not coincidence that many of the milder allegations of misconduct are towards people who may be more socially awkward. Many men think that women would not get uncomfortable if the guy was attractive. However people who are good at social interactions and practised at flirting can usually flirt in a way so that they make rejecting the advances easy and they are quick to pick up on the social ques towards the advance. If they get rejected they then smoothly defuse the situation and let the girl know it was OK. This is how some people can flirt with basically everyone in a room without stepping on any toes.
EPT
