EPTSexual Harassment In the Dota Scene - Page 8
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We understand that this topic evokes strong feelings. In the interest of maintaining a necessary and productive discussion, we will be taking a strong stance against posters that clearly do not contribute to this aim. Dishonest and bad faith arguments, victim blaming, and attacks on other users, will be strictly moderated. A post which only serves to muddy the waters and dishonestly portray the nature of assault and harassment (and corresponding accusations) is also unwelcome. This is a serious topic. Please treat it as such. If you have feedback on how we should approach this topic on LiquidDota, please see here. | ||
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Faruko
Chile34173 Posts
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Firebolt145
Lalalaland34510 Posts
I was wrong. Can't believe Meruna had to keep all this quiet while she was dating Synderen, who is THE casting partner for Tobi. Jesus. | ||
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its_a_me
Austria612 Posts
Never read a lot about Dota outside of TL.net and mainly watched the game streams. I know show buisness is dirty as fuck, but man, didnt expect to read so much in the dota scene. Some stuff is pretty bad, looking at Grant and Tobi or is ridiculous why is even brought up, like the Zyori stuff. BTS is now fishy to me, they must know more then they say. But i could be wrong, so i will stay low and see what the tide will bring in. | ||
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FreakyDroid
Macedonia2616 Posts
https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vT94VMkUjtBbpsjLXHrjcpWbY1E2PeouvBy2K1mbj0vgJY7xLpVCZR5QOsO6qjHjvyguVbuNcdnSRp-/pub This is why people who accuse others without proof, should shut the fuck up and be patient. | ||
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PuroStrife
Korea (North)199 Posts
Because of corona we lost TI but we have gotten this clean-up instead, though I wish we didn't have to. | ||
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saocyn
United States937 Posts
On June 26 2020 03:19 its_a_me wrote: There is some pretty hard shit mixed in this cocktail. Never read a lot about Dota outside of TL.net and mainly watched the game streams. I know show buisness is dirty as fuck, but man, didnt expect to read so much in the dota scene. Some stuff is pretty bad, looking at Grant and Tobi or is ridiculous why is even brought up, like the Zyori stuff. BTS is now fishy to me, they must know more then they say. But i could be wrong, so i will stay low and see what the tide will bring in. Honestly, I don't think BTS is that bad, just questionable hiring. I always felt they were professional. I feel the scum are the people who employed Tobi including all the organizations in Australia who knew of his behavior but turned a blind eye for 10+ years. The guy is first and foremost racist, on top of being a predator and all of it was covered it. | ||
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its_a_me
Austria612 Posts
I did read this, but i dont know, it just dosnt feel right for me, something is off. But because it is just a feeling i try to stay low. Not everything that is brought up now will be true or just a misread between two beings. So lets wait before we get the pitchforks | ||
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Emnjay808
United States10666 Posts
🙁🙁🙁☹️ | ||
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Dracolich70
Denmark3820 Posts
If we are gonna come out of this in a constructive way, learn something from human interaction, it is probably not a good idea that we become tone deaf, leading to new anxieties of getting emotionally involved with opposite or same sex. While I feel it is great that the pandemic has led to a lot of movements, trying to make social change and take things that are not right up, but if the movement is just another train, that only listens to its own voice, it will just derail. | ||
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Latham
9593 Posts
On June 26 2020 03:43 Emnjay808 wrote: Tobiwan.... 🙁🙁🙁☹️ Every year I bought only Tobiwan and Synderen signed TI cache items  (( | ||
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its_a_me
Austria612 Posts
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Sapaio
Denmark2037 Posts
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PhoenixVoid
Canada32761 Posts
https://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sr9pi5 Meruna responded to this. | ||
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Emnjay808
United States10666 Posts
My fav casting duo ((((( | ||
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FreakyDroid
Macedonia2616 Posts
On June 26 2020 03:34 its_a_me wrote: @FreakyDroid I did read this, but i dont know, it just dosnt feel right for me, something is off. But because it is just a feeling i try to stay low. Not everything that is brought up now will be true or just a misread between two beings. So lets wait before we get the pitchforks Im for that as well. My reply was aimed towards those who threw BTS under the bus, without hearing their side of the story. | ||
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Julmust
Sweden4867 Posts
On June 26 2020 02:59 Geisterkarle wrote: Because just a question: Are men allowed to try to get the attention of a woman? To flirt with her? And - yes - trying to get her out of her cloths? If yes, well you have to deal with a basic level of "creepiness", depending on man and manners and what not. If not ... well, lean back, mankind will be gone in 100 years because nobody reproduces! I'm sorry but I have to ask: do you have ANY fucking idea of how you get to from being interested to a sexual relationship? Cause you sound like a 12 year old who learned through porn. That last part isn't an insult. That's how porn works. Porn isn't real. You know that, right? Just in case you DON'T know, here let me describe a typical courtship -> sex scenario. A non-creepy scenario. This can of course vary between cultures but you're European, like me, and I've dated multiple European nationals, so I think the differences are small enough to generalize. Scenario 1. You meet said person. Can be at a pub, a house party, match on Tinder, convention, football match... you get my drift: a place built for socializing. If they're a colleague, you ask them out for a drink. You don't do any of this at work. Work is a zone for, you guessed it, WORK. 2. You strike up a conversation. You find that the conversation is flowing along really well. Either because you have common interests or because you have very similar values. 3. As the conversation carries on, you both get closer to each other. If you take a step forward and she takes a step back, she's probably not interested. Doesn't mean that conversation has to end, just means that the chances of her wanting to be with you are small. 4. If all goes well, things start escalating. You touch her arm (note: TOUCH not GRAB). She touches you (I usually wait for this). You start playing with each others hands. Maybe you lean your heads against each other. You see what's happening here is that she and you are both inviting each other into your own personal space. 5. Time for the kiss. But you don't shove your face into hers. Just like with the body contact it's a slow buildup. You move in closer and observe her. This is scary as fuck but if everything was green in steps 1-4, you should be fine. However, if she turns away, you stop. I've even asked girls (typically very shy girls) if it's OK for me to kiss them. And I've been rejected. Doesn't mean that we won't end up dating long-term, maybe she's just not in the right mind space. Or wants to take it slow. I've also had girls say no and it's been awkward. They've never called me a creep for this, though. 6. The kiss is in. Now I'm not a high brow kind of guy, so I prefer to just go crazy here. Kiss her against a wall. Escalate the touching by moving to body parts you haven't been allowed to touch before. If she ever freezes up while you do this YOU STOP AND ASK IF THIS IS REALLY WHAT SHE WANTS. Honestly, you can do that even without her freezing up. 7. You can invite her over or she can do the same. EVEN HERE IT'S NOT A GUARANTEE. You can watch a movie in bed. Get really close to each other. You'll know. But again, you ask: would you like to have sex with me? And if the question is no, even if it happened 100x before. A NO IS A FUCKING NO. At NO point in this entire scenario, until she has said yes and then not changed her mind through the act, have you done YOUR duty as a responsible adult. And even then. Think there's a risk she might be too drunk? Say "let's sleep on it" and have horrible/awesome hungover morning sex, if she consents. So what am I saying here? I'm saying that the people we've heard about here fucking starts at halfway through step 7, if not at the fucking end! Who the FUCK goes up to someone they haven't been vibing with for a good period of time and ask: "Wanna fuck?". There are, of course, other scenarios that escalates this. Night club dance floors are usually such a place. You pretty much skip steps 1 & 2 (especially if you're an old fuck like me and can't hear in loud environments). But you still escalate, slowly. Why? Because you're not a creep In my 34 years on this planet (starting at around 15, I guess) I have never been accused of sexual harassment. Have I made mistakes? You betcha. Have I been slightly creepy at times? Absolutely. But I have the fucking insight into myself to realize when I've done something wrong and I fix myself. | ||
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Firebolt145
Lalalaland34510 Posts
On June 26 2020 02:59 Geisterkarle wrote: I wasn't sure if I should write something, because I think I get some red "ink" on the bottom or this will be just gone, but here it goes anyway! I think, the first thing we should check is the "level of creepiness". If someone is drunk and tries to hit on you and you have to shove him away so he gets the message into his alcohol brain vs. getting you dead drunk and putting his dick inside you ... are on such different levels, I'm not willing to discuss those/similar incidents as if they are the fucking same thing! Ok with that? No? Sorry, don't read on! Because just a question: Are men allowed to try to get the attention of a woman? To flirt with her? And - yes - trying to get her out of her cloths? If yes, well you have to deal with a basic level of "creepiness", depending on man and manners and what not. If not ... well, lean back, mankind will be gone in 100 years because nobody reproduces! But I don't want to go to deep in basic man-woman relationships. Back to "current events". A question about that though: The stories I read here are often starting "yeah, he I think in one of the GrandGrant stories a streaming-chat was mentioned. Some are not so clear to me, especially things that happened at a LAN. Did you go up at him and said "omg, I'm a big fan! I want to get to know you better! here is my telephone number!" or what happened? And would you think, that if I, or another "basic man", would go to someone and try to get this attention ... that my/our chances are "quite" lower than yours to get such an invitation!? Do you know, what power you have? While I wait, a little story time: I listen quite often to "other" women about similar things. You know, it is often mentioned that there are not many women in esports/gaming. Well, that is true, but I like them (women)! So I have another hobby on the side, that for years is much bigger for me, but gaming: I'm a dancer! If you don't believe me, ask the people that watched me dance at ESL One Hamburg last year (I admit, it weren't that many because it was during the grand finals ... I think...) And in dancing there are a LOT more women. So there is not that gender gap (pun intended) as in gaming events. But we have a lot of creepers too! I really don't know how often a (girl)friend came up to me at a party and said "Please dance with me or this creepy guy will ask me!" or also a favorite "Hey, see this guy back there? - yeah, why? - He just asked, if I'm open for a night with him!" (at least those guys normally take the no and walk away in search for the next woman...) I could go on with similar stories I hear! Depending on the dance, it gets quite close in a physical way from the get-go between "strangers". And a lot of "boundaries" you normally have "around you" are not there! There is a lot of trust involved! And you, as a man, must be especially good at reading signals during a dance on what you are "allowed" to do! For example, if a woman puts her hand on your breast, you are good ... well, no, wrong! She wants more room and more distance! Do it! But those signals are basically not shown anywhere. You have to learn - on both sides - what they are and how to show them and how to react! And sometimes you just have to say a clear "NO!" You remember this creepy guy, that I had to "counter-dance"!? Well I sometimes ask why she doesn't say this small word to him!? And they are "... oehm... how could I, if he asks, hm... isn't this wrong?" No, it isn't! I know quite a few women that "mastered" it. They look the guy cool into his eyes, say "No, sorry" and turn away. The don't go "Hihi, no, sorry, I need a break, hihi" with blushed cheeks. Because that doesn't work! We men are stupid as fuck! Deal with us on that level! So, back to gaming. But did we learn anything here? I hope! Women: Learn to know where you are and what you are! You are NOT "another guy" at an gaming event! It would be great if that would be, but it isn't! I know, this is basically what this is about, but I don't see that happen in the near future! You CAN'T force it! See what other people are around you and learn that not every man is a perfect gentleman! (well, no one is!) And deal with us directly! Not years later on twitlonger to "expose" us for a "shameful" evening! Man: Not every women is "available", deal with it! Especially not at an gaming event! If you happen to strike up a conversation with one because you are next to each other in line for a show or something, good luck! Read the signals! Does she just want to banter? Or is there more? In doubt: Distance! If you are " public figure", know that you are one! "With great power comes great responsibility!" or something... and if you really think, you are good to go, maybe go slow with verbal flirting and "handholding" and not "how about my hotel room now!?" because then you can stop at a moment where I'm not disgusted by you! tl;dr: sorry, there is none! I spent some time reading your post. I'll just comment that as mods we don't automatically ban people for having opposing viewpoints. We only do that if we feel that their views are so against the principles of TL that we cannot tolerate having them here, in our house. You make the point that some part of this behaviour is normal, part of the natural courting process between a man and woman. You put forward that in a gaming community where there is 100 men for every woman, it is natural that a woman might receive more attention than a man. That is true, and to be expected. As a woman you'd expect to receive more phone numbers, more invites to coffee or dinner, more invites to dance. That's fine, as long as each man respects her reply whether it is yes or no. A man might even try more than once, and if done respectfully, that's okay. What is NOT acceptable and must NOT be considered normal, is when this attention becomes harassment or abusive. That is the line in the sand that no one must ever cross. And that is the line that various victims are now being vocal about, where Grant, Demon, and Tobi have allegedly crossed. Just because some women are slightly better at dealing with harassment than others does not make it okay on any level. There are parallels between what you're saying and telling victims of rape that 'well you should've dressed differently, or you should've not been on your own at night.' This is victim blaming, and this is NOT okay. You mention that there is a degree of 'creepiness' that is normal when courting. I guarantee you that most people get into relationships without being creepy to each other. | ||
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overt
United States9006 Posts
Guy makes a twitlonger talking about his daughter and how his mom raised him right after allegations are mentioned. Then deletes it after it's poorly received and makes a simple, "I have done horrible things and will make amends in private," statement. Then is accused of non-consensual sex with Synderen's long-time girlfriend. Then he makes a twitlonger where he explains all of the horrible things he's done and it's basically just him talking about having consensual sex with a couple of women? What? What is happening? | ||
dravernor
Netherlands6192 Posts
On June 26 2020 03:52 its_a_me wrote: I know that feeling, when only watching the tournament streams you dont realise what scum he is... Same. I'm thoroughly disappointed, his hype casts were my favourite. | ||
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Julmust
Sweden4867 Posts
On June 26 2020 04:02 overt wrote: I just don't understand... TobiWan's thing is so convoluted and weird. Guy makes a twitlonger talking about his daughter and how his mom raised him right after allegations are mentioned. Then deletes it after it's poorly received and makes a simple, "I have done horrible things and will make amends in private," statement. Then is accused of non-consensual sex with Synderen's long-time girlfriend. Then he makes a twitlonger where he explains all of the horrible things he's done and it's basically just him talking about having consensual sex with a couple of women? What? What is happening? He tried to lie to get away with shit. Got caught. Tried to lie a little bit less. Got caught. Rinse and repeat | ||
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