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On June 26 2020 04:04 Julmust wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2020 04:02 overt wrote:
I just don't understand... TobiWan's thing is so convoluted and weird.
Guy makes a twitlonger talking about his daughter and how his mom raised him right after allegations are mentioned. Then deletes it after it's poorly received and makes a simple, "I have done horrible things and will make amends in private," statement. Then is accused of non-consensual sex with Synderen's long-time girlfriend. Then he makes a twitlonger where he explains all of the horrible things he's done and it's basically just him talking about having consensual sex with a couple of women?
What? What is happening? He tried to lie to get away with shit. Got caught. Tried to lie a little bit less. Got caught. Rinse and repeat
Any way to make a new thread / community news just for tobi? the guy has too many instances that people should know as he is one of the faces of dota 2 itself....I've compiled a large list of instances which I think deserves attention for those who are unaware.
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On June 26 2020 04:04 Julmust wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2020 04:02 overt wrote:
I just don't understand... TobiWan's thing is so convoluted and weird.
Guy makes a twitlonger talking about his daughter and how his mom raised him right after allegations are mentioned. Then deletes it after it's poorly received and makes a simple, "I have done horrible things and will make amends in private," statement. Then is accused of non-consensual sex with Synderen's long-time girlfriend. Then he makes a twitlonger where he explains all of the horrible things he's done and it's basically just him talking about having consensual sex with a couple of women?
What? What is happening? He tried to lie to get away with shit. Got caught. Tried to lie a little bit less. Got caught. Rinse and repeat
Oh definitely. I just can't tell what's worse, that he thought it would work or that for some people in the community it apparently is working.
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This ongoing conversation about having to be a little creepy to be able to date is a sad excuse. I’m furious people are trying to make that an argument.
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Lalalaland34510 Posts
On June 26 2020 04:06 saocyn wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2020 04:04 Julmust wrote:On June 26 2020 04:02 overt wrote:
I just don't understand... TobiWan's thing is so convoluted and weird.
Guy makes a twitlonger talking about his daughter and how his mom raised him right after allegations are mentioned. Then deletes it after it's poorly received and makes a simple, "I have done horrible things and will make amends in private," statement. Then is accused of non-consensual sex with Synderen's long-time girlfriend. Then he makes a twitlonger where he explains all of the horrible things he's done and it's basically just him talking about having consensual sex with a couple of women?
What? What is happening? He tried to lie to get away with shit. Got caught. Tried to lie a little bit less. Got caught. Rinse and repeat Any way to make a new thread / community news just for tobi? the guy has too many instances that people should know as he is one of the faces of dota 2 itself....I've compiled a large list of instances which I think deserves attention for those who are unaware.
While I think it's perhaps 80% of the way there, this is slightly less 'set in stone' as Grant's situation, which concluded in him withdrawing from the scene, so I'm okay with it being in this thread for a bit longer........... but that's my opinion, and someone else might decide to create one anyway.
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Lalalaland34510 Posts
On June 26 2020 04:08 Emnjay808 wrote:
This ongoing conversation about having to be a little creepy to be able to date is a sad excuse. I’m furious people are trying to make that an argument.
If people think that it's okay to be creepy to date someone, you need to do some serious reflection on yourself.
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Well no more Tobi voice lines in the Battlepass :D
Seems the dude's officially done for.
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This is so crazy, its seems like over 50% of the most notable casters are all super creeps? Dang like what happened people? Reading some of these stories its clear that this has become so widespread that guys have no idea how to approach women in a respectful manner. Then you add on top of that the power dynamic and this gets super abusive.
This is sad but at the same time I am glad this is all coming out, lets cleanse the scene and start over.
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On June 26 2020 04:31 YourGoodFriend wrote:
This is so crazy, its seems like over 50% of the most notable casters are all super creeps? Dang like what happened people? Reading some of these stories its clear that this has become so widespread that guys have no idea how to approach women in a respectful manner. Then you add on top of that the power dynamic and this gets super abusive.
This is sad but at the same time I am glad this is all coming out, lets cleanse the scene and start over.
Yeah I really think that the scene will emerge stronger, and more inclusive, thanks to this!
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28104 Posts
On June 26 2020 04:31 YourGoodFriend wrote:
This is so crazy, its seems like over 50% of the most notable casters are all super creeps? Dang like what happened people? Reading some of these stories its clear that this has become so widespread that guys have no idea how to approach women in a respectful manner. Then you add on top of that the power dynamic and this gets super abusive.
This is sad but at the same time I am glad this is all coming out, lets cleanse the scene and start over.
I think it may be an issue of such an insular community that has a bit of gatekeeping revolving around it. For what it's worth I wouldn't say the majority of men are creepy molesters (hopefully I'm not wrong on that). It's definitely a lot more prominent than I ever expected though.
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It's bit strange that it's caster that should be well spoken and good at interaction with peoole and not players for the most part. When you consider the lager amount of players.
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Lalalaland34510 Posts
On June 26 2020 04:41 Sapaio wrote:
It's bit strange that it's caster that should be well spoken and good at interaction with peoole and not players for the most part. When you consider the lager amount of players.
Players don't talk to the community nearly as much as casters or hosts do.
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Lalalaland34510 Posts
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On June 26 2020 05:12 Nevuk wrote:I've opened a separate thread for Tobi's accusations, since they're much more serious than the others and Valve has done something, which is rare. I've tried to keep it limited to current events (this is why I didn't use Saocyn's - too much of the OP is about things that the community has collectively litigated before. Feel free to repost your compilation in that thread though, Saocyn.) https://www.liquiddota.com/forum/dota-2-general/560690-tobiwan-accused-of-sexual-assault-valve-acts
i'll probably take my stance and dislike for him out the original compilation so that it doesn't overshadow the voices that need to be heard. Since others are staff and require being impartial for the sake of journalism, i'll write the compilation in another thread. I think the word Timeline is better to describe my original post, instead of a compilation. The events are unfolding far quicker than I imagined, but i posted this here
https://www.liquiddota.com/forum/dota-2-general/560689-compilation-of-tobis-racist-and-predatory-behavior
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Is there a summary of Zyoris video? Tbh as a fulltime working person it is difficult to follow all this.
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boy, glad there are no LANs, as we might not have any casters left to actually cast them at this rate.
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Netherlands6192 Posts
On June 26 2020 05:34 Qualitaetsgarant wrote:
Is there a summary of Zyoris video? Tbh as a fulltime working person it is difficult to follow all this.
It is a sincere and heartfelt apology, encouraging victims to come forward, condemning people attacking the victims, and a description of how he came to be in that position and how he has (sincerely) learnt and grown from the #metoo movement.
I recommend watching it when you have time.
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On June 26 2020 04:00 Julmust wrote:
In my 34 years on this planet (starting at around 15, I guess) I have never been accused of sexual harassment. Have I made mistakes? You betcha. Have I been slightly creepy at times? Absolutely. But I have the fucking insight into myself to realize when I've done something wrong and I fix myself.
I'm actually older than you!
And basically I can say the same after that too! Remember my text: female friends come _to me_ if someone hasn't learned boundaries, because they trust me and know I will help!
But your list ... is this from "pink happy land"!?!?
Maybe your list works for some, some not!
I actually had a long lasting relationship with a girl, where we meet like every 2-3 weeks for an evening - so not that much - but I saw some signals and basically "out of the blue" popped the question, if I may accompany her to her apartment and she said yes. After that there was not much talking and "keep it slow" bullshit! I think she would have thrown me out, if had done this!
Yes, there was also the girl, where we cuddled and kissed for hours but nothing more happened for weeks! And only then we started doing that without our clothes on...
Everytime it is different! You can't make a "spreadsheet" how this works! I know some people would love to have something like that (or force such thing on people), but they are stupid!
Also - damn I'm back to basic relationships ... - all of this is highly subjective!
Another story, but with turned sides! I was at a party and a girl I didn't know asked me for a dance. But like after 5sec I realized that she is quite a beginner. Not a direct problem, I'm open to dance with basically everyone (even men, but that is another story). So I did a song with her, said thanks and wanted to get off the dancefloor. And she was really "oh, that was so cool with you! so much fun! let's dance on!" and I got a bad vibe and basically I started what many females know: I said I need a break, even went to the bathroom to get away from her, when I got back I tried to get another dance partner as fast as possible, ... but later she "got" me again ... and forget everything what I said in my last post: I didn't say "no" and danced with her again! Awful!
And here is the moment what I meant with "subjective". If she would have been a really attractive woman, I would be ok with all that, maybe more would have happened if she is so into me ... but sorry to say, she wasn't my type! And this, dear women, can happen to you too! Don't deny it! If you are at a bar and see a nice looking guy, you would love to check out, if he is also nice, but suddenly some dude with a bad haircut asks if he can buy you a drink, you send him away and your bff a sms that you got hit on by some creepy weirdo!
How can we assess what is a "wrong" behavior, if an action from the "right" person is no problem and from the "false" person it is "creepy"!?
About that I basically do "victim blaming". No; but I see females as persons! Good, bad, crazy, funny, whatever. But they are - or "should" - be the same as everyone else ... so basically we are all the same! Meaning that we all live on this fucking planet; and it is definitely not a "always happy place" and we all have to deal with that! There will always be bad things happening to us! And if we want to live a halfway decent life, we must just get over or ignore some things. Maybe we have to learn a lot and "break a leg" before we grow and put things in the "meh" basket. But I expect everyone - "even" females - to do that; and I really don't want only people running around, that can deal with basically nothing! We can discuss the "threshold", but for me it is definitely not at "8 year old stupid sexist jokes in a text chat!"
You want my respect? Get my respect!
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On June 26 2020 06:14 Geisterkarle wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2020 04:00 Julmust wrote:
In my 34 years on this planet (starting at around 15, I guess) I have never been accused of sexual harassment. Have I made mistakes? You betcha. Have I been slightly creepy at times? Absolutely. But I have the fucking insight into myself to realize when I've done something wrong and I fix myself.
But your list ... is this from "pink happy land"!?!? Maybe your list works for some, some not! I actually had a long lasting relationship with a girl, where we meet like every 2-3 weeks for an evening - so not that much - but I saw some signals and basically "out of the blue" popped the question, if I may accompany her to her apartment and she said yes. After that there was not much talking and "keep it slow" bullshit! I think she would have thrown me out, if had done this!
My list was "created" (I don't actually use a checklist, it's simply how I choose to act) so that I respect the people around me. It's very generalized and, of course, there can be instances where you move quicker than that but that's rare, in my experience. There's also girls who want you to move fast. But would you rather have that work one time and have 10 girls upset with what you've done, or would rather miss out on that one time while not possibly traumatizing 10 others? Even if we dial it down to one girl. Are you OK traumatizing one person because you moved too quickly? I'm not. I'm sure I've missed out on plenty of opportunities over the years, and I'm fine with that cause I never have to fear running into that one girl.
Also, in the context of this discussion we're having, you point to a key element that did NOT happen in most of these stories: you met this girl over a longer period of time. That's the key point here. In almost all the reported cases (including Zyori's highly debated "is it/is it not" story) this happened when these people first met. Have you ever asked someone to sleep with you, on the first night, without going through the majority of the steps? Have you ever asked someone, again on the first night, if they want to fuck without even having kissed them?
On June 26 2020 06:14 Geisterkarle wrote:
How can we assess what is a "wrong" behavior, if an action from the "right" person is no problem and from the "false" person it is "creepy"!?
By being considerate about your advances! By stopping when someone says no. By asking for consent. By NOT propositioning someone the first time you meet them. Simple as that! Feel out the water first. Like you've said you've done in every single case here.
On June 26 2020 06:14 Geisterkarle wrote:
About that I basically do "victim blaming". No; but I see females as persons! Good, bad, crazy, funny, whatever. But they are - or "should" - be the same as everyone else ... so basically we are all the same! Meaning that we all live on this fucking planet; and it is definitely not a "always happy place" and we all have to deal with that! There will always be bad things happening to us! And if we want to live a halfway decent life, we must just get over or ignore some things. Maybe we have to learn a lot and "break a leg" before we grow and put things in the "meh" basket. But I expect everyone - "even" females - to do that; and I really don't want only people running around, that can deal with basically nothing! We can discuss the "threshold", but for me it is definitely not at "8 year old stupid sexist jokes in a text chat!"
You want my respect? Get my respect!
Let's put this in perspective. What you're saying here is that it's OK to go around being a douche bag to others. That is literally what you're saying. This is a hypothetical but I want to bring in a man here so you'll actually be able to relate. To be clear: this did not happen to me. My dad was a drunk and threw bottles at my head whenever he saw me. He physically and mentally abused me. Does that mean that I:
a) Should just "suck it up" and "be a man" and kill myself like men tends to do? Or even worse, stick around and do the same to my children because that's usually option 2.
or
b) Go see a therapist. Work through my issues and expel this man from my, and my families, life?
Your arguments I've highlighted above would indicate option a but I don't think you're stupid so I'm gonna guess you chose option b. That is literally the same scenario. These women have been scarred and telling them to "just get over it" is irresponsible. You have NO right to tell a victim that they're overreacting. Do you think they enjoy this? Do you think the women that have come forward did so while sipping a glass of wine listening to their favorite song?
Also, I wasn't gonna comment about this at first but it keeps on bugging me: your quote saying "8 year old stupid sexist jokes". Imagine hearing these "jokes" day in and day out every time you open your mouth. I play with games with several women. You know what they all have in common? They refuse to use voice chat in any game, ever, because 99% of the time there will be someone who thinks it's funny to harass women. Some of them are better than me at the games they're playing but these people will never see that if they figure out they're a girl. How fucked up is that? How hard is it to teach these misogynistic assholes that we won't take their shit. Meanwhile, if I open my mouth they might tell me to fuck off but it's never because of my gender.
This shit has to change and if you don't agree with that, you're an enabler.
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Lalalaland34510 Posts
On June 26 2020 06:14 Geisterkarle wrote:
Another story, but with turned sides! I was at a party and a girl I didn't know asked me for a dance. But like after 5sec I realized that she is quite a beginner. Not a direct problem, I'm open to dance with basically everyone (even men, but that is another story). So I did a song with her, said thanks and wanted to get off the dancefloor. And she was really "oh, that was so cool with you! so much fun! let's dance on!" and I got a bad vibe and basically I started what many females know: I said I need a break, even went to the bathroom to get away from her, when I got back I tried to get another dance partner as fast as possible, ... but later she "got" me again ... and forget everything what I said in my last post: I didn't say "no" and danced with her again! Awful!
And here is the moment what I meant with "subjective". If she would have been a really attractive woman, I would be ok with all that, maybe more would have happened if she is so into me ... but sorry to say, she wasn't my type! And this, dear women, can happen to you too! Don't deny it! If you are at a bar and see a nice looking guy, you would love to check out, if he is also nice, but suddenly some dude with a bad haircut asks if he can buy you a drink, you send him away and your bff a sms that you got hit on by some creepy weirdo!
How can we assess what is a "wrong" behavior, if an action from the "right" person is no problem and from the "false" person it is "creepy"!?
I don't know what you look like IRL but let me ask, in any of these situations, did the girl hold power over you? That power may be physical if she's larger or stronger than you, or psychological if she is your boss or a prominent figure in the scene. If not, and the girl did not try to force you to stay with her, then this isn't the same.
You may not be directly victim blaming anyone here but you are trying to adjust the spotlight from focusing on the perpetrators and negative culture, which we MUST be focusing on, and instead highlighting the failings of the victims. That is NOT what we are here to do.
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EPT
