EPTJerax
Interviewed after playing OpenAI
OpenAI took the Dota world by storm in 2017, when it consistently beat the best mid-players in the world at TI7. However, the showing at TI8 — where the AI faced off against a full 5 man pro-team for the first time — wasn't quite as convincing and a lot of the naysayers thought that the AI would never be able to catch up to humans. How wrong they were. A little over a week ago, OpenAI faced off against OG — the reigning TI champions — and crushed them in two straight games. We at LiquidDota were fortunate enough to have Rob "RobAJG" Gonzales on-site to grab an interview with Jesse "JerAx" Vainikka after their games. In the interview Jerax speaks of the strengths and weaknesses of OpenAI, the updated DPC system, and the return of Anathan "ana" Pham.
LD.com: It seems like Open AI’s previous iteration wasn’t anywhere near this good. How did it feel for you to play against it?
Jerax: I think the bot/machine understands the mid-game better now and it has a better risk evaluation. If it’s behind it’s willing to do more and when it’s in a winning position it’s very strict on how it plays. It’s very conservative.
LD.com: Notail said something about “If we can get to 20 minutes and be even, we’ll be OK”. Did you feel the same way?
Jerax: The first game, I felt like we had a decent shot. When the bot says it has a 95% win probability I think it looks at itself playing itself, not playing a human team. And in its internal meta it think it’s really strong. Our chances in that game was significantly higher than what the machine thought, just due to the nature of how a human plays the game.
I think it was a fairly good statement to say that we had a very good chance at winning if we got past 20. From 5 to 15 minutes I think the AI is doing very well.
LD.com: Why do you think it’s strong during that time period than compared to after 20 minutes?
Jerax: It uses the map very well, including the objectives. It’s very good at moving around the map and if it’s in a leading position, the AI kind of nullifies whatever you want to do and still taking your towers at the same time. It’s very hard to explain the feeling you get when you play against it. You feel a lot of pressure. You get this feeling of “I can’t really do much” and it’s very hard to communicate with your teammates on what you want to do. You have to do things together and it’s still putting a lot of pressure on you. It’s very hard to communicate with your team while it’s putting so much pressure on you.
LD.com: Can you talk more about what the feeling is like? Because you’ve played with the best of the best, you’ve won the biggest tournament in the world. Playing against the AI, did it feel like it was tilting you at points?
Jerax: It feels… you think that the AI does everything really well, so you overthink. Whereas the natural way of doing things is thinking “let's do our own thing” and focus on that. You should think “ok it's gonna do this so what do we do in response?” but you start thinking a lot about the AI instead. When it starts attacking you, you think “it must know something that I don’t” and then you realize that maybe it wasn’t that smart, at times.
I think it’s really good at the 5v5 and connecting together, outnumbering you. I think it’s really smart and it thinks a lot about who’s showing where and how much time they need to get to somewhere. That’s the feeling I got. It wants to fight you and it shows that. It’s very aggressive at times, when it thinks its stronger.
Jerax: I definitely don’t think the human way is correct. I think there are very strong habits that humans have built over time… For example, always having cores that farm and supports that doesn’t. I think that is a very strong habit and it’s not always necessarily right, every game. And OpenAI shows that if you actually split the farm, and everyone has their items before you go together, then it feels like everyone does something for the team. You can’t just nullify one guy, it’s not enough. That’s just one example.
To beat the AI when it shows confidence and going 5 man, it's really not optimal to even think about fighting it. It understands that the fight that will happen favors it and I think that, at times, we were too confident, feeling that we could outplay it. If this was a human vs. human scenario you would split push and take the map, you don’t care so much about towers. Humans don’t really care that much about towers. There are some specific points in certain games when you do but the natural approach is that when the enemy is stronger, then you just want to split.
LD.com: Was there anything you took from what OpenAI did today, that you might try to add to your game?
Jerax: Hmm… maybe the natural way of how it plays. It’s very heavy on objectives and team play, understanding weakness is definitely something to look for. Just try to understand [Ed note: the game better]. Also, the fact that supports and cores shouldn’t be so narrow minded. Widen your perspective to see what’s really important this game versus the human way of setting supports aside. It’s been a belief of mine, for a long time, that the distribution (by humans) hasn’t been that good previously, and the AI has convinced me there are better ways of playing Dota.
LD.com: It’s no secret that you were struggling this DPC season. With Ana coming back it seems like you’re moving towards that TI8 form. How do you feel about his return and what it brings to the team?
Jerax: Ana has a very personal and specific style of playing the game. We, the other four, understand what he wants and know how to support him. If Ana were to play in another team, I think most people wouldn’t match with him so easily. I think we have something a bit unexplainable. Ana is an individual that shines with a great supporting cast, so he just works very well with us.
LD.com: What do you think others can do to replicate the success you’ve had with this team?
Jerax: Hehe… Our success is very interesting, even for me. Because I don’t quite understand how it all came together before TI. For example, just looking at our practice games. Sometimes we really struggled and sometimes we did really well. It’s very hard to put it into words. I think that what most Dota players lack currently, in my opinion, is prioritizing the team above themselves.
LD.com: Just like OpenAI?
Jerax: Yes. Prioritizing the team and thinking that you, as an individual, is very responsible for the team, and having everyone carry that responsibility. That helps you when looking at objectives. I think that humans have gone away from that. A lot of people are really talented, individually, but most players don’t succeed because they don’t think about the team perspective of the game. That’s something people should really look at.
LD.com: The DPC is very intense and there has been some burnout. Jerax: Have you felt that and what do you think needs to improve?
The problem with the DPC system is that you have major qualifiers into minor qualifiers into the minor and then, finally, into the major. The problem is that the minor doesn’t really give you anything but you still have to invest a lot of time into it. Every time you have to play both qualifiers adds a week for the minor teams, and then you go into the minor and right after the minor you have no time to prepare and you go to the major right away. And that’s what’s causing burnout currently. All the teams in the minor have to play a lot of games. There’s just competition after competition and you can’t bring your best self because of all that competition.
What could help that? I think that minors have to be boosted. Maybe have four teams from the minor make the major, and make the minor bigger event. Put more emphasis on what’s important. I think that part of the problem is that so many teams go to the major and so few to the minor. I’d like to see less value in the major qualifiers, myself.
Also, I don’t really like that the DPC dictates everything on the scene. ESL Mumbai is having issues now because it runs so close to the minor. And people will, obviously, go to the minor. It’s very hard to host tournaments outside of the DPC. I don’t know if that’s right? Maybe there are too many minors and majors?
LD.com: Well is there?
Jerax: I think so. Maybe reduce it a little bit. Have more emphasis on them and add more value to both. That way there’s fewer competitions but much more excitement for them.
LD.com: You’re the reigning TI champions but you still have to qualify for TI this year. What do you think about that?
Jerax: I personally don't mind that we’re not qualified for TI. I think it’s better that we’re not. I think that whoever makes it to TI, they should have put a lot of effort into qualifying. During the season they should’ve been dominating, to deserve that you’ve earned that spot. For example, if we would’ve lost all tournament I would’ve felt like we cheated our way there. I wouldn’t enjoy playing. I think most players feel the same way. If you do well, you’re going to qualify.
LD.com: One last thing, do you play AutoChess?
Jerax: Yeah, a little bit.
LD.com: So it’s very different from Dota, why did you decide to play it?
Jerax: I simply play it because my teammates have played it and it’s nice having fun together. To bond. I don’t really play to win. I look at other games very differently from Dota. Dota is very professional and competitive. You have to be hungry. With other games, I’m more having fun. Just enjoying myself.
Jerax: I think the bot/machine understands the mid-game better now and it has a better risk evaluation. If it’s behind it’s willing to do more and when it’s in a winning position it’s very strict on how it plays. It’s very conservative.
LD.com: Notail said something about “If we can get to 20 minutes and be even, we’ll be OK”. Did you feel the same way?
Jerax: The first game, I felt like we had a decent shot. When the bot says it has a 95% win probability I think it looks at itself playing itself, not playing a human team. And in its internal meta it think it’s really strong. Our chances in that game was significantly higher than what the machine thought, just due to the nature of how a human plays the game.
I think it was a fairly good statement to say that we had a very good chance at winning if we got past 20. From 5 to 15 minutes I think the AI is doing very well.
LD.com: Why do you think it’s strong during that time period than compared to after 20 minutes?
Jerax: It uses the map very well, including the objectives. It’s very good at moving around the map and if it’s in a leading position, the AI kind of nullifies whatever you want to do and still taking your towers at the same time. It’s very hard to explain the feeling you get when you play against it. You feel a lot of pressure. You get this feeling of “I can’t really do much” and it’s very hard to communicate with your teammates on what you want to do. You have to do things together and it’s still putting a lot of pressure on you. It’s very hard to communicate with your team while it’s putting so much pressure on you.
LD.com: Can you talk more about what the feeling is like? Because you’ve played with the best of the best, you’ve won the biggest tournament in the world. Playing against the AI, did it feel like it was tilting you at points?
Jerax: It feels… you think that the AI does everything really well, so you overthink. Whereas the natural way of doing things is thinking “let's do our own thing” and focus on that. You should think “ok it's gonna do this so what do we do in response?” but you start thinking a lot about the AI instead. When it starts attacking you, you think “it must know something that I don’t” and then you realize that maybe it wasn’t that smart, at times.
I think it’s really good at the 5v5 and connecting together, outnumbering you. I think it’s really smart and it thinks a lot about who’s showing where and how much time they need to get to somewhere. That’s the feeling I got. It wants to fight you and it shows that. It’s very aggressive at times, when it thinks its stronger.
"Our success is very interesting, even for me. Because I don’t quite understand how it all came together before TI."
LD.com: If you could devise a way to go back and play those games. Do you continue to play the “pro Dota” way or do you play the “OpenAI” way with hyper aggressiveness without established positions? Or do you think the way that humans are playing the game today is correct?Jerax: I definitely don’t think the human way is correct. I think there are very strong habits that humans have built over time… For example, always having cores that farm and supports that doesn’t. I think that is a very strong habit and it’s not always necessarily right, every game. And OpenAI shows that if you actually split the farm, and everyone has their items before you go together, then it feels like everyone does something for the team. You can’t just nullify one guy, it’s not enough. That’s just one example.
To beat the AI when it shows confidence and going 5 man, it's really not optimal to even think about fighting it. It understands that the fight that will happen favors it and I think that, at times, we were too confident, feeling that we could outplay it. If this was a human vs. human scenario you would split push and take the map, you don’t care so much about towers. Humans don’t really care that much about towers. There are some specific points in certain games when you do but the natural approach is that when the enemy is stronger, then you just want to split.
LD.com: Was there anything you took from what OpenAI did today, that you might try to add to your game?
Jerax: Hmm… maybe the natural way of how it plays. It’s very heavy on objectives and team play, understanding weakness is definitely something to look for. Just try to understand [Ed note: the game better]. Also, the fact that supports and cores shouldn’t be so narrow minded. Widen your perspective to see what’s really important this game versus the human way of setting supports aside. It’s been a belief of mine, for a long time, that the distribution (by humans) hasn’t been that good previously, and the AI has convinced me there are better ways of playing Dota.
LD.com: It’s no secret that you were struggling this DPC season. With Ana coming back it seems like you’re moving towards that TI8 form. How do you feel about his return and what it brings to the team?
Jerax: Ana has a very personal and specific style of playing the game. We, the other four, understand what he wants and know how to support him. If Ana were to play in another team, I think most people wouldn’t match with him so easily. I think we have something a bit unexplainable. Ana is an individual that shines with a great supporting cast, so he just works very well with us.
LD.com: What do you think others can do to replicate the success you’ve had with this team?
Jerax: Hehe… Our success is very interesting, even for me. Because I don’t quite understand how it all came together before TI. For example, just looking at our practice games. Sometimes we really struggled and sometimes we did really well. It’s very hard to put it into words. I think that what most Dota players lack currently, in my opinion, is prioritizing the team above themselves.
LD.com: Just like OpenAI?
Jerax: Yes. Prioritizing the team and thinking that you, as an individual, is very responsible for the team, and having everyone carry that responsibility. That helps you when looking at objectives. I think that humans have gone away from that. A lot of people are really talented, individually, but most players don’t succeed because they don’t think about the team perspective of the game. That’s something people should really look at.
LD.com: The DPC is very intense and there has been some burnout. Jerax: Have you felt that and what do you think needs to improve?
The problem with the DPC system is that you have major qualifiers into minor qualifiers into the minor and then, finally, into the major. The problem is that the minor doesn’t really give you anything but you still have to invest a lot of time into it. Every time you have to play both qualifiers adds a week for the minor teams, and then you go into the minor and right after the minor you have no time to prepare and you go to the major right away. And that’s what’s causing burnout currently. All the teams in the minor have to play a lot of games. There’s just competition after competition and you can’t bring your best self because of all that competition.
What could help that? I think that minors have to be boosted. Maybe have four teams from the minor make the major, and make the minor bigger event. Put more emphasis on what’s important. I think that part of the problem is that so many teams go to the major and so few to the minor. I’d like to see less value in the major qualifiers, myself.
Also, I don’t really like that the DPC dictates everything on the scene. ESL Mumbai is having issues now because it runs so close to the minor. And people will, obviously, go to the minor. It’s very hard to host tournaments outside of the DPC. I don’t know if that’s right? Maybe there are too many minors and majors?
LD.com: Well is there?
Jerax: I think so. Maybe reduce it a little bit. Have more emphasis on them and add more value to both. That way there’s fewer competitions but much more excitement for them.
LD.com: You’re the reigning TI champions but you still have to qualify for TI this year. What do you think about that?
Jerax: I personally don't mind that we’re not qualified for TI. I think it’s better that we’re not. I think that whoever makes it to TI, they should have put a lot of effort into qualifying. During the season they should’ve been dominating, to deserve that you’ve earned that spot. For example, if we would’ve lost all tournament I would’ve felt like we cheated our way there. I wouldn’t enjoy playing. I think most players feel the same way. If you do well, you’re going to qualify.
LD.com: One last thing, do you play AutoChess?
Jerax: Yeah, a little bit.
LD.com: So it’s very different from Dota, why did you decide to play it?
Jerax: I simply play it because my teammates have played it and it’s nice having fun together. To bond. I don’t really play to win. I look at other games very differently from Dota. Dota is very professional and competitive. You have to be hungry. With other games, I’m more having fun. Just enjoying myself.
Transcription: Julmust
Editor: OmniEulogy
