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On August 22 2012 03:52 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2012 03:27 Nevuk wrote:
edit : So basically heroes who can farm rapidly and would make use of the negative armor. (Heroes who have built in negative armor like TA or BH it's a plus on anyways). Furion is another hero it's useful for. I never saw the appeal of it on Furion TBH. His inherent baseline right-click damage isn't that high--so it feels like Mjollnir or MKB would be more effective for him.
It's for towers and because you can do a nice -armor progression on him that makes the -6 armor count for a bit longer. Medallion -> Deso - > AC (throw in a necrobook if you want to backdoor).
Obviously it's not a build for every game, furion is a hero who can go almost any item lineup-depending. It's not good vs riki or morph or other agi heroes with super high armor (unless you are planning on just backdooring).
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On August 22 2012 04:42 Qbek wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2012 04:41 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
The strength of deso is that it applies a debuff that can be utilized by your entire team. The strength of this depends on how many people will be able to make use of it and if you'll be able to send them into the negatives. Knocking something into the negatives gives an incredible damage boost which isn't too hard early, and even if you aren't knocking them into the negatives it is still a significant damage increase.
If your team has two or three strong right clickers then somebody should be making deso imo If it's a team thing, a medallion is better than deso.
Except they stack.
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On August 22 2012 04:52 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2012 04:42 Qbek wrote:On August 22 2012 04:41 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
The strength of deso is that it applies a debuff that can be utilized by your entire team. The strength of this depends on how many people will be able to make use of it and if you'll be able to send them into the negatives. Knocking something into the negatives gives an incredible damage boost which isn't too hard early, and even if you aren't knocking them into the negatives it is still a significant damage increase.
If your team has two or three strong right clickers then somebody should be making deso imo If it's a team thing, a medallion is better than deso. Except they stack.
But it's not like it's the only reason you get deso. If you need minus armor for your team only, you have medalion and AC to choose from. You need to have use for the damage too
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deso good for pubstomping. not so much in pro match unless you are ahead by a decent margin.
and that new medallion is pretty decent on heroes that does high physical pwnage early (i say new because i havnt played dota since 6.43b back when i was semi pro)
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On August 22 2012 04:54 Qbek wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2012 04:52 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On August 22 2012 04:42 Qbek wrote:On August 22 2012 04:41 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
The strength of deso is that it applies a debuff that can be utilized by your entire team. The strength of this depends on how many people will be able to make use of it and if you'll be able to send them into the negatives. Knocking something into the negatives gives an incredible damage boost which isn't too hard early, and even if you aren't knocking them into the negatives it is still a significant damage increase.
If your team has two or three strong right clickers then somebody should be making deso imo If it's a team thing, a medallion is better than deso. Except they stack. But it's not like it's the only reason you get deso. If you need minus armor for your team only, you have medalion and AC to choose from. You need to have use for the damage too
I'm hesitant to continue this without reading up on how negative armor scales because it has been many years, but if I'm remembering correctly you get exponential gains as the attacking party from it. If you're going to make use of many right clickers you'd be stupid not stack all of them unless it is a huge waste of the other stats. Damage and right clicking go hand in hand and I don't see how you can have a few right clickers with none of them being able to utilize it. AC is a bit different since a lot of the cost is armor that might not be needed, especially on agility heroes who have large amounts of armor naturally and would better benefit from additional health rather than armor.
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On August 22 2012 05:07 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2012 04:54 Qbek wrote:On August 22 2012 04:52 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On August 22 2012 04:42 Qbek wrote:On August 22 2012 04:41 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
The strength of deso is that it applies a debuff that can be utilized by your entire team. The strength of this depends on how many people will be able to make use of it and if you'll be able to send them into the negatives. Knocking something into the negatives gives an incredible damage boost which isn't too hard early, and even if you aren't knocking them into the negatives it is still a significant damage increase.
If your team has two or three strong right clickers then somebody should be making deso imo If it's a team thing, a medallion is better than deso. Except they stack. But it's not like it's the only reason you get deso. If you need minus armor for your team only, you have medalion and AC to choose from. You need to have use for the damage too I'm hesitant to continue this without reading up on how negative armor scales because it has been many years, but if I'm remembering correctly you get exponential gains as the attacking party from it. If you're going to make use of many right clickers you'd be stupid not stack all of them unless it is a huge waste of the other stats. Damage and right clicking go hand in hand and I don't see how you can have a few right clickers with none of them being able to utilize it. AC is a bit different since a lot of the cost is armor that might not be needed, especially on agility heroes who have large amounts of armor naturally and would better benefit from additional health rather than armor.
IIRC, there was a calculation that showed that every point of armor gives you 6% EHP. So 1000hp with 5 armor will take 1300 physical damage to kill, 1000hp with 10 armor will take 1600 physical damage.. etc. Therefore, it scales linearly if you look at it this way, although you could argue that 100% -> 106% is a greater change than 210% -> 216%..
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United States47024 Posts
-Armor is most effective when it reduces the target to zero armor. The formula for % damage increase for negative armor is different from the % damage reduction formula for positive armor, and produces less % damage increase per point of armor reduction than the positive armor formula does (for example, going from 0 to -20 armor is a 71% increase in damage taken, but going from 20 armor to 0 armor is an 83% increase in damage taken)
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On August 22 2012 05:16 TheYango wrote:
-Armor is most effective when it reduces the target to zero armor. The formula for % damage increase for negative armor is different from the % damage reduction formula for positive armor, and produces less % damage increase per point of armor reduction than the positive armor formula does (for example, going from 0 to -20 armor is a 71% increase in damage taken, but going from 20 armor to 0 armor is an 83% increase in damage taken)
doesnt it max out at -10 though
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its -20 and while the effectiveness (overall % increase in dmg) is linear down to 0, it actually scales diminishingly over the negative numbers
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without theorycrafting involving math, if you're target has low armor (ie they dont have as or anything that provides significant armor) -6 armor means they will take atleast 25% extra damage. on heroes who are heavy physical and fast as like naix it is very good.
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There was a game a while back where one team went a minus armor strat and the other team just all bought ghost scepters. Seemed like a really annoying counter.
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And I would be careful about considering whether it is more effective or not. Efficient yes, but it can still be valuable to reduce a target's armor below 0.
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All this deso discussion.....I've always gotten it on mirana after manta for some reason...maybe I saw someone pubstomping with it, lol. But what should mirana's second big item be assuming you're hitting it around the ~35-40 minute mark, or are just killing a lot of people.
Also, for some reason I've been playing with a zeus a lot lately....and he just seems way too good to not be used competitively. I always looking at the damage done per hero in console after the game, and he literally has lead every single game I've ever played with him in. All of his abilities just equal massive hero nukeage of ridiculous proportions. Just yesterday a zeus was a decent 8/5/16 or something like that in a game(where I played a 3/3/19 mirana lol)......but had almost TRIPLED the nearest player on my team in damage dealt. That is just stupid good. Sure, 5 hoods mitigates his damage to a non-insta death amount, but that's still 2500 gold minimum spent just so a hero doesn't full on rape you every single team fight. What other hero can force an item buy like that? And he makes buying pipe a 100% necessity, even though he can still nuke it down with a fully maxed out Q/W+passive combo on all 5 heroes. I guess, kind of like sf, he's hard to fit into lineups as he needs mid while also being really easy to gank, but surely someone could put a little effort into a plan to protect him, and he could pay off hugely. I feel like he's kind of a ds or veno hero, one that doesn't really do huge damage, but his accumulated damage over time means he is a big factor in almost every team fight. Maybe something like a blink/force staff/euls build would give him the mobility he needs to stay alive while also giving him the mana and regen to spam his abilities off cooldown an entire fight.
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Zeus problem is that he is squishy as fuck and got no mobility.
+ his stun is so low duration that he can't use it to save his life
Zeus isn't a bad hero, he ain't spirit breaker.
Zeus with Aghs and refresher orb is fun in pubs though :D
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Zeus is cool, just get euls, blink, shiva
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On August 22 2012 05:45 YODA_ wrote:
All this deso discussion.....I've always gotten it on mirana after manta for some reason...maybe I saw someone pubstomping with it, lol. But what should mirana's second big item be assuming you're hitting it around the ~35-40 minute mark, or are just killing a lot of people.
Also, for some reason I've been playing with a zeus a lot lately....and he just seems way too good to not be used competitively. I always looking at the damage done per hero in console after the game, and he literally has lead every single game I've ever played with him in. All of his abilities just equal massive hero nukeage of ridiculous proportions. Just yesterday a zeus was a decent 8/5/16 or something like that in a game(where I played a 3/3/19 mirana lol)......but had almost TRIPLED the nearest player on my team in damage dealt. That is just stupid good. Sure, 5 hoods mitigates his damage to a non-insta death amount, but that's still 2500 gold minimum spent just so a hero doesn't full on rape you every single team fight. What other hero can force an item buy like that? And he makes buying pipe a 100% necessity, even though he can still nuke it down with a fully maxed out Q/W+passive combo on all 5 heroes. I guess, kind of like sf, he's hard to fit into lineups as he needs mid while also being really easy to gank, but surely someone could put a little effort into a plan to protect him, and he could pay off hugely. I feel like he's kind of a ds or veno hero, one that doesn't really do huge damage, but his accumulated damage over time means he is a big factor in almost every team fight. Maybe something like a blink/force staff/euls build would give him the mobility he needs to stay alive while also giving him the mana and regen to spam his abilities off cooldown an entire fight.
Arc lightning doesn't actually do a lot of damage.. At lvl 4 it does barely over 100 damage (after 25% resist). Lightning bolt does good damage, but it's a single target spell. Most of Zeus' damage comes from his static field and ulti. The main problem is that he's extremely squishy and lacks a good escape mechanism, making him easy to pick off. And a pipe really shuts him down hard.. nothing like buying 1 item to nullify an entire hero.
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Arc lightning is not for the dmg, it is for the spam-ability together with static field.
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I'm not a fan of people saying pipe shuts him down hard while still saying he lacks an escape mechanism. If you get a force staff blink dagger or both you can solve your escape mechanism problems so that you can continue to spam q and w without dieing so that you nullify the impact of pipe just from sheer consistent damage output.
I think the comparison to Shadow Fiend is better although Zeus is really not as momentum based, but I can understand it from a farm necessity perspective.
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Force staff helps a lot on Zeus, but he still never reach 1000hp without strength items.
I just think Zeus need a small speed boost and a higher strength growth and maybe a little longer range (50 or so).
Think his damage is fine, might even be to good if you make him harder to kill
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EPT
