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On August 20 2012 06:29 Yoshi- wrote:
This discussion needs more graph and statistic
http://i.imgur.com/kFooe.png
/edit - Sorry, forgot to add that this is a super serious post.
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Im quite sure poker has 1000 times more spectators than street fighter and judo combined, but hey I only watch TV
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On August 20 2012 07:20 cilinder007 wrote:Im quite sure poker has 1000 times more spectators than street fighter and judo combined, but hey I only watch TV
It says "spectatorness" not "spectators"
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On August 20 2012 07:18 DefMatrixUltra wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 06:29 Yoshi- wrote:
This discussion needs more graph and statistic http://i.imgur.com/kFooe.png/edit - Sorry, forgot to add that this is a super serious post.
I approve this super serious graph with this super serious response: Dota ROCKS.
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On August 20 2012 06:09 SilverStar wrote:
Holy wall of text..
my thought exactly. too many lines
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Tobi will be a guest on JP's "Real Talk" live at 3:00 p.m. EST (21 CEST) on Tuesday, August 21
See you guys there!
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On August 20 2012 07:25 Yoshi- wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 07:20 cilinder007 wrote:On August 20 2012 07:18 DefMatrixUltra wrote:On August 20 2012 06:29 Yoshi- wrote:
This discussion needs more graph and statistic http://i.imgur.com/kFooe.png Im quite sure poker has 1000 times more spectators than street fighter and judo combined, but hey I only watch TV It says "spectatorness" not "spectators"
I aint even mad, just saiyan
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On August 20 2012 07:39 cilinder007 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 07:25 Yoshi- wrote:On August 20 2012 07:20 cilinder007 wrote:On August 20 2012 07:18 DefMatrixUltra wrote:On August 20 2012 06:29 Yoshi- wrote:
This discussion needs more graph and statistic http://i.imgur.com/kFooe.png Im quite sure poker has 1000 times more spectators than street fighter and judo combined, but hey I only watch TV It says "spectatorness" not "spectators" I aint even mad, just saiyan
holy shit i need to write that one down rofl
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On August 20 2012 07:37 rotegirte wrote:
Tobi will be a guest on JP's "Real Talk" live at 3:00 p.m. EST (21 CEST) on Tuesday, August 21
See you guys there!
hm, hope this works
Tuesday, Aug 21 7:00pm GMT (GMT+00:00)
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and i hope JP first question will be: so whats the lastest champion riot just released?
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The way youku works is that the lq is buffered onto the server first and the hq and superhq come a few hours later, should be up by bow
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On August 20 2012 08:55 Kupon3ss wrote:The way youku works is that the lq is buffered onto the server first and the hq and superhq come a few hours later, should be up by bow
those games were mostly stompfests thanks to iG, funny if you like watching those but dont expect epic
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On August 20 2012 06:06 DefMatrixUltra wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 04:47 r.Evo wrote:T_T I hate you moony bear. I also love you. <3 On August 20 2012 02:57 DefMatrixUltra wrote:On August 19 2012 17:48 r.Evo wrote:On August 19 2012 12:45 TheYango wrote:On August 19 2012 10:33 PrinceXizor wrote:
no. you can't. you can tell slipping and falling = bad, and impressive looking things = good, but beyond that you have to be watching or involved with the sport for some time. That's the thing though. You can feel excitement and involvement in the sport at a visceral level with just that level of understanding. With DotA, there's absolutely nothing that engages that rudimentary visceral excitement for the uninitiated spectator. This isn't exactly something easy to get around, because by nature, something happening between two human beings is going to be more emotionally engaging than two characters on the screen--particularly when there's no immediate aspect of those characters for the spectator to relate to/empathize with. When you're at the Olympics, even if you have no understanding of the sport, there's still the baseline instinct of rooting for your country. You can empathize with the players on an emotional level. With E-sports there's an inherent barrier to this because of the degree of separation between the player and his character on the screen. What you're describing is a marketing problem, not a problem inherent to games. Gamers as a whole have a tendency to value information over emotion. [1] Part of it comes from the - still existing - basement stigma, part of it comes from the ability to interact with others without actually interacting with them. [2] Now, while this is usually no problem at all within the community a problem arises when you want to sell your game to people from the outside as some kind of "spectator sport". [3] Ask your average football fan why xy was awesome and he's gonna be like "WHAT? JUST LOOK AT IT OMG WAS SO GOOD DID YOU SEE THAT OMGOMG" while your average gamer will start with "Well, first this was about a pushing setup against a ganking setup but they had so much map awareness that they could see the enemy blablablabla..." - people stop listening right there. [4] Emotion is what people enjoy about sports. Rivalries. Crying losers and celebrating winners. [5] E-sport scenes don't have that much of it, that's why they settle for the next best thing: DRAMA. Tobi is probably the greatest example for how things should be when you want to sell them. The trailer for the Valve documentary does the exact same. It's all about emotion, relations and to some degree about the lifestyle. I can show a Tobi stream to my gf, help a bit with establishing a relationship between the players (who lost when vs who, who are the big rivals, who doesn't like who) and suddenly she's fevering along despite having literally no clue what's going on simply because the casting is on an almost pure emotional level. Tobi isn't great when it comes to analysis, he is weird when casting with other people because he shouts them down but all that doesn't matter since he gets across his excitement for the game. + Show Spoiler [Yeah, No] +I think it's sad that, on this site devoted to Starcraft, this kind of attitude is tolerated. A large amount of the emotion and passion for Starcraft come from the exciting live exhibition it makes in combination with a technical understanding of the game. [1] That's a nice generalization, but it's not any more true of gamers than it is of anyone highly interested in anything. [2] I am having a lot of trouble deciphering what you are trying to say here (what it has to do with any of the surrounding statements etc.), but really it just sounds like you're poking around with tired stereotypes. [3] Why would you want to sell it as a spectator sport to people that don't care? There's nothing fundamental about football or American football that makes them superior to chess or diving or fencing or competitive games. It's just that those are the things that happened to catch on since a very long time ago. Trying to take any other sport and set it up as a spectator event is gonna appeal to people that are interested in that sport and not very many others. [4] This is another nice "all gamers are ranty autistics" stereotype, but it ignores the fact that people that are highly interested in anything can do the exact same thing in relation to their field. Baseball fans can rant for ages about things which 95% of people won't give a shit about, but it makes them intensely happy. Their enjoyment of the game is magnified by their knowledge of the game. [5] The emotions behind a sport are not generated by the sport itself but the involvement of the fanbase with the players, with the understanding of the sport, and with the excitement of the consequences of the event. Football, diving, fencing, Dota. Absolutely no difference on this front. It's sad to see that there are gamers who tell themselves that gaming is different but in a weird negative way from other hobbies and interests. It's like seeing those women with abusive husbands/boyfriends telling themselves it's their fault. There is absolutely no fundamental difference between being interested in or spectating something like judo or white-water rafting or Starcraft. Look what I did with your post, I cut it up into organized bits, I must be one of those obsessive fat autistic basement dwellers to which you are so superior. The very fundamental difference between judo, white-water rafting and Starcraft is that the former two have moments where someone with zero knowledge can go out and say "WOW FUCK THAT LOOKED AWESOME". When it comes to games you need a caster conveying that emotional connection to viewers since a little water like creature throwing splashes at someone simply isn't as easy to connect with as two guys smacking each other on the ground. [1] Besides that, are you genuinely asking why it's a good thing to sell something as a spectator sport? Every person who plays SC2 and tunes into a DotA 2 stream by accident/out of boredom/because someone told him it's cool is a potential customer. Every person who doesn't play games like this usually who you can show the game to is a potential customer. By offering easy entrance into spectating the game you have a higher chance of them actually becoming your customers. More customers equals a bigger scene, more money, more tournaments, more awesome plays and a better future for a game we all love. [2] People like Tobi Wan for DotA 2 or Tasteless for BW are some of the few people who are able to convey their emotional connection to the game while also explaining things in a comparatively easy to understand manner. The only piece missing in their casts a lot of the time is a bigger focus on the players and the connections between them. [3] [1] This is the basis of my disagreement with your statements. I outright reject the idea that someone can see something really interesting or exciting with no burden of knowledge in one category but not the other. What is the difference between watching judo and watching some sick Street Fighter tournament? It's the details that differentiate them, not the overall picture. You still have two guys locked in epic combat where only one can come out the victor. The game even has the edge here in terms of "THAT LOOKED AWESOME" because you can display really gorgeous impossible-looking feats one after the other depending on the theatrical presentation the developers chose. A game like Dota or even WoW is a small leap from that. [2] I'm not asking why it's good for something to gain publicity. I was making the statement that video games are no different from other "fringe" sports in that if you try to sell them as a spectator sport, your customer base will consist almost entirely of those who already appreciate the sport. The fact that American football in the states and football in Europe are so huge is a matter of cultural entrenchment, little to do with the sports themselves - otherwise, American football should be just as easily distributed across Europe. I imagine that if computers were invented hundreds of years ago, things like American football could be reversed with games - where games are the media frenzy and the football a "mere" hobby. There is nothing intrinsic to the nature of football that makes it a better spectator sport than the thousands of other interesting sports out there. [3] This is really no different than casters and casting for "normal" sports. If you watch a football game, there are numerous explanatory comments, technical banter, discussion of statistics, and analysis of plays in addition to excited casting. They're injecting the excitement while also constantly meeting the quota for the burden of knowledge. If you love being a nerd and are wearing your nerd hat, what's with all the disparaging remarks? Why repeat the same tired recycled 90s era garbage?
Relating to people pressing buttons so that a game character does something without any pain or physical strength being involved is harder to relate to than two people being in each others faces physically. Claiming that those are exactly the same is like claiming that there's no difference between driving a car at 220km/h on the streets and doing the same in Need for Speed.
Yeah, the casters I listed as examples are not really that much different from those of "normal" sports. However, the ones I mentioned are also not the norm, they are huge exceptions in the esports community.
Disparaging remarks? 90s era garbage? Go ahead, try telling people that you play 40 hours of DotA 2 or Starcraft per week. Once you've done that try telling people that you spend 40 hours per week on martial arts or rock climbing. If you honestly believe that games don't have lots and lots of stigmas attached to them (some with good reason, some not so much) by the general public then maybe you should check out the other side of the fences around you.
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Brazil1429 Posts
Before we go talking if Dota is good for spectating or not, let's discuss this: what defines Dota as a game? Because this question is like the one we need to answer before anything else.
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^GT TV interview: Something about rpgs and mmos and competitive games and rts but just the good parts none of the bad. NONE
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On August 20 2012 09:09 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 06:06 DefMatrixUltra wrote:On August 20 2012 04:47 r.Evo wrote:T_T I hate you moony bear. I also love you. <3 On August 20 2012 02:57 DefMatrixUltra wrote:On August 19 2012 17:48 r.Evo wrote:On August 19 2012 12:45 TheYango wrote:On August 19 2012 10:33 PrinceXizor wrote:
no. you can't. you can tell slipping and falling = bad, and impressive looking things = good, but beyond that you have to be watching or involved with the sport for some time. That's the thing though. You can feel excitement and involvement in the sport at a visceral level with just that level of understanding. With DotA, there's absolutely nothing that engages that rudimentary visceral excitement for the uninitiated spectator. This isn't exactly something easy to get around, because by nature, something happening between two human beings is going to be more emotionally engaging than two characters on the screen--particularly when there's no immediate aspect of those characters for the spectator to relate to/empathize with. When you're at the Olympics, even if you have no understanding of the sport, there's still the baseline instinct of rooting for your country. You can empathize with the players on an emotional level. With E-sports there's an inherent barrier to this because of the degree of separation between the player and his character on the screen. What you're describing is a marketing problem, not a problem inherent to games. Gamers as a whole have a tendency to value information over emotion. [1] Part of it comes from the - still existing - basement stigma, part of it comes from the ability to interact with others without actually interacting with them. [2] Now, while this is usually no problem at all within the community a problem arises when you want to sell your game to people from the outside as some kind of "spectator sport". [3] Ask your average football fan why xy was awesome and he's gonna be like "WHAT? JUST LOOK AT IT OMG WAS SO GOOD DID YOU SEE THAT OMGOMG" while your average gamer will start with "Well, first this was about a pushing setup against a ganking setup but they had so much map awareness that they could see the enemy blablablabla..." - people stop listening right there. [4] Emotion is what people enjoy about sports. Rivalries. Crying losers and celebrating winners. [5] E-sport scenes don't have that much of it, that's why they settle for the next best thing: DRAMA. Tobi is probably the greatest example for how things should be when you want to sell them. The trailer for the Valve documentary does the exact same. It's all about emotion, relations and to some degree about the lifestyle. I can show a Tobi stream to my gf, help a bit with establishing a relationship between the players (who lost when vs who, who are the big rivals, who doesn't like who) and suddenly she's fevering along despite having literally no clue what's going on simply because the casting is on an almost pure emotional level. Tobi isn't great when it comes to analysis, he is weird when casting with other people because he shouts them down but all that doesn't matter since he gets across his excitement for the game. + Show Spoiler [Yeah, No] +I think it's sad that, on this site devoted to Starcraft, this kind of attitude is tolerated. A large amount of the emotion and passion for Starcraft come from the exciting live exhibition it makes in combination with a technical understanding of the game. [1] That's a nice generalization, but it's not any more true of gamers than it is of anyone highly interested in anything. [2] I am having a lot of trouble deciphering what you are trying to say here (what it has to do with any of the surrounding statements etc.), but really it just sounds like you're poking around with tired stereotypes. [3] Why would you want to sell it as a spectator sport to people that don't care? There's nothing fundamental about football or American football that makes them superior to chess or diving or fencing or competitive games. It's just that those are the things that happened to catch on since a very long time ago. Trying to take any other sport and set it up as a spectator event is gonna appeal to people that are interested in that sport and not very many others. [4] This is another nice "all gamers are ranty autistics" stereotype, but it ignores the fact that people that are highly interested in anything can do the exact same thing in relation to their field. Baseball fans can rant for ages about things which 95% of people won't give a shit about, but it makes them intensely happy. Their enjoyment of the game is magnified by their knowledge of the game. [5] The emotions behind a sport are not generated by the sport itself but the involvement of the fanbase with the players, with the understanding of the sport, and with the excitement of the consequences of the event. Football, diving, fencing, Dota. Absolutely no difference on this front. It's sad to see that there are gamers who tell themselves that gaming is different but in a weird negative way from other hobbies and interests. It's like seeing those women with abusive husbands/boyfriends telling themselves it's their fault. There is absolutely no fundamental difference between being interested in or spectating something like judo or white-water rafting or Starcraft. Look what I did with your post, I cut it up into organized bits, I must be one of those obsessive fat autistic basement dwellers to which you are so superior. The very fundamental difference between judo, white-water rafting and Starcraft is that the former two have moments where someone with zero knowledge can go out and say "WOW FUCK THAT LOOKED AWESOME". When it comes to games you need a caster conveying that emotional connection to viewers since a little water like creature throwing splashes at someone simply isn't as easy to connect with as two guys smacking each other on the ground. [1] Besides that, are you genuinely asking why it's a good thing to sell something as a spectator sport? Every person who plays SC2 and tunes into a DotA 2 stream by accident/out of boredom/because someone told him it's cool is a potential customer. Every person who doesn't play games like this usually who you can show the game to is a potential customer. By offering easy entrance into spectating the game you have a higher chance of them actually becoming your customers. More customers equals a bigger scene, more money, more tournaments, more awesome plays and a better future for a game we all love. [2] People like Tobi Wan for DotA 2 or Tasteless for BW are some of the few people who are able to convey their emotional connection to the game while also explaining things in a comparatively easy to understand manner. The only piece missing in their casts a lot of the time is a bigger focus on the players and the connections between them. [3] [1] This is the basis of my disagreement with your statements. I outright reject the idea that someone can see something really interesting or exciting with no burden of knowledge in one category but not the other. What is the difference between watching judo and watching some sick Street Fighter tournament? It's the details that differentiate them, not the overall picture. You still have two guys locked in epic combat where only one can come out the victor. The game even has the edge here in terms of "THAT LOOKED AWESOME" because you can display really gorgeous impossible-looking feats one after the other depending on the theatrical presentation the developers chose. A game like Dota or even WoW is a small leap from that. [2] I'm not asking why it's good for something to gain publicity. I was making the statement that video games are no different from other "fringe" sports in that if you try to sell them as a spectator sport, your customer base will consist almost entirely of those who already appreciate the sport. The fact that American football in the states and football in Europe are so huge is a matter of cultural entrenchment, little to do with the sports themselves - otherwise, American football should be just as easily distributed across Europe. I imagine that if computers were invented hundreds of years ago, things like American football could be reversed with games - where games are the media frenzy and the football a "mere" hobby. There is nothing intrinsic to the nature of football that makes it a better spectator sport than the thousands of other interesting sports out there. [3] This is really no different than casters and casting for "normal" sports. If you watch a football game, there are numerous explanatory comments, technical banter, discussion of statistics, and analysis of plays in addition to excited casting. They're injecting the excitement while also constantly meeting the quota for the burden of knowledge. If you love being a nerd and are wearing your nerd hat, what's with all the disparaging remarks? Why repeat the same tired recycled 90s era garbage? Relating to people pressing buttons so that a game character does something without any pain or physical strength being involved is harder to relate to than two people being in each others faces physically. Disparaging remarks? 90s era garbage? Go ahead, try telling people that you play 40 hours of DotA 2 or Starcraft per week. Once you've done that try telling people that you spend 40 hours per week on martial arts or rock climbing. If you honestly believe that games don't have lots and lots of stigmas attached to them (some with good reason, some not so much) by the general public then maybe you should check out the other side of the fences around you.
There isn't any visceral difference between watching the pixels on your TV screen if they're real people or if they're virtual characters. You're just spectating. You're watching the action, you're taking in the display, watching the patterns. There is a level of empathic relationship in e.g. boxing if someone takes a huge unexpected hit and goes down, where a person might wince or cringe in acknowledgement of the pain being experienced by another person.
But turn the sound off. Dim the brightness. Mess with the colors. It doesn't have the same impact. Visceral quality comes from the reinforcing combination of motion, sound, and sight. When each of these individual aspects experiences a simultaneous peak in activity that combine in an aesthetically coherent manner, it creates that visceral quality. The fact is developers can do this with games just like filmmakers have been doing for years. It's not any more "real" or "fake" in movies either, it's just an understanding of psychology at work in media.
Ok, so with the basement remark, you were merely pointing out the existence of stigmas against gamers. Why then go on to reinforce them? Gamers value information over emotion? Like there's some slider in life with one extreme being Emotion and the other Information. This is just yet another way to say "gamers are all rambly autistics" just like you did at the end of your initial post. Why say things like that in any circumstance?
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On August 20 2012 09:09 r.Evo wrote:
Relating to people pressing buttons so that a game character does something without any pain or physical strength being involved is harder to relate to than two people being in each others faces physically. Claiming that those are exactly the same is like claiming that there's no difference between driving a car at 220km/h on the streets and doing the same in Need for Speed.
that's not true at all that's not the accurate comparison at all.
the comparison is watching a car race in a movie (faked) compared to watching nascar. saying that they are pretty much the same is wrong, but not exactly by that much.
No one on earth will say that watching dota is like being in a boxing match. but people will say spectating your favorite esport is like watching a boxing match.
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Lalalaland34510 Posts
def why are you in this topic this is not eve we need less smart here
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FREEAGLELAND26782 Posts
was catching up on my weekly top 10s
noticed that episode 25 was missing
did a youtube search
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/GR18s.png)
and then suddenly rick astley
and no video
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You're talking about: "The fact is developers can do this with games just like filmmakers have been doing for years." - well, they don't. Not in Starcraft 2, not in DotA 2. They aren't bringing the "visceral quality" to the table that enables a random person to enjoy an awesome Sandking stun on the same level as an awesome unexpected hit in boxing.
I'm not sure if someone has told you this before, but people in life are different. Different people are drawn to different kinds of interest. The average math student I know is less outgoing, less social and less emotionally intelligent than the average sport student I know. It's sad that you only seem to be able to see this exact negative part of the equation though, maybe you should check how you feel about certain stigmas and how much they apply or not.
"Gamers", heck, pretty much any of the "tech"- or "science" people I know have the same tendencies in this regard. However understanding and acknowledging the huge difference between loving "deep analytical commentary" (which e.g. I do) and how the same content is perceived by someone with less interest and less knowledge as something incredibly boring is critical when it comes to the question of why or why not something is easy for new people to get into or not.
If someone asks "Why is it harder to make a random person enjoy a game of football compared to a game of DotA?" then my answer still is "Because we, as a community, love to focus on the technical side of things, not on the emotional". Our game is, from a viewers perspective, much more complex and deeper than football. If we don't focus on things that people have an easy time to relate to (relationships between players, stories, rivalries - all that good stuff) then we shouldn't sit around and be like "Hurpdurp DotA so hard to watch I don't understand why my gf/random buddy/father can't get into it"
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EPT
