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United States47024 Posts
On August 20 2012 06:06 DefMatrixUltra wrote:
[1] This is the basis of my disagreement with your statements. I outright reject the idea that someone can see something really interesting or exciting with no burden of knowledge in one category but not the other. What is the difference between watching judo and watching some sick Street Fighter tournament? It's the details that differentiate them, not the overall picture. You still have two guys locked in epic combat where only one can come out the victor. The game even has the edge here in terms of "THAT LOOKED AWESOME" because you can display really gorgeous impossible-looking feats one after the other depending on the theatrical presentation the developers chose. A game like Dota or even WoW is a small leap from that.
You've got this mixed up. The fact that you can't use fancy computer graphics to spruce up feats of achievement in real life makes those achievements more real to the spectator.
A lot of the visceral spectator value comes from watching players perform difficult feats of human achievement. At the most base level, even if you don't understand anything else about the sport, you can watch a player do something, understand that it was difficult, and be amazed. This is true just as much in real sports as in E-sports.
The problem is that the degree of separation between the player and the character muddles this. Just because cool-looking things happen on screen doesn't mean that some difficult feat of human ability is being performed--the modern spectator's exposure to computer entertainment makes them well aware of the fact that flashy computer-generated scenes are much easier to create than they appear.
This means they have to understand what is happening and WHY it's spectacular--something you don't have to do with real sports because everyone, as a human being, understands the difficulties and limitations of their own body, and can be amazed when someone pushes their body to its limits. In a game like DotA, the spectator has NO knowledge of the limitations of the character on screen, and therefore has to be taught those limitations.
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FREEAGLELAND26782 Posts
jesus you guys are going ham
hi yango
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American football is still easier to explain to an average person just because a lot of the technical aspects and strategy don't matter as much to notice good plays, and because of the massive audience football gives better cues to enjoy it. Even if you watch an exciting caster you lose the ability to easily participate in a big play in dota. Granted a similar thing can happen in football, but it is easier to cheer for a well done touchdown than a kill when a massive arena of people cheer for the former.
Edit: So Yango explained that much more elegantly.
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On August 20 2012 00:22 SilverStar wrote:Yeah I get that if I connect and the game is already over.
The game is not over. This is what I get for literally every game I connect to. Notice how the time is fucked up (88:88).
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United States47024 Posts
On August 20 2012 09:42 DefMatrixUltra wrote:
There isn't any visceral difference between watching the pixels on your TV screen if they're real people or if they're virtual characters. You're just spectating. You're watching the action, you're taking in the display, watching the patterns. There is a level of empathic relationship in e.g. boxing if someone takes a huge unexpected hit and goes down, where a person might wince or cringe in acknowledgement of the pain being experienced by another person.
Except there IS a difference. You are a human being. By virtue of the fact that you are a human being, you understand the limitations of the human body, and can recognize feats of strength and ability seeing another human being pushing his body to those limits. Even if you don't know the rules of a sport, you know when a player has done something difficult or amazing by virtue of this. By contrast, you can't possibly know the physical limitations of a character in a game unless you have a certain level of familiarity with that game.
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I agree so much with Yango.
For example, even if I explain to someone the basic core of dota, the end goal and the things players try to do to win, there is a high likelihood that they will react randomly to the animations and skills of a hero because they won't know what those animations correspond to. A massive flashy animation might make them really excited when it did very little just because the impact is not understood, just the visuals.
This is opposed to football where people can notice if a player made a big hit, ran really fast, or made a great catch because they can at least appreciate the physicality of another human. You will still have some randomness here just due to unfamiliarity to the rules, but there is at least some base knowledge.
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On August 20 2012 10:06 writer22816 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 00:22 SilverStar wrote:On August 19 2012 21:46 writer22816 wrote:Does anybody else get this when you spec a game? + Show Spoiler + Yeah I get that if I connect and the game is already over. The game is not over. This is what I get for literally every game I connect to. Notice how the time is fucked up (88:88).
It's a bug, the players arent the same either. Usually I just quit the bugged game and try to reconnect to the one I want. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesnt. Really annoying
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Played this for about 5 minutes and hated it!
Reminds me of War3 too much. Camera seems too close, controls are just odd. Didn't realise you could switch champs mid-game either.
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So... who do you guys think is picking up Potm Bottom?
*cough* Liquid *cough*
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FREEAGLELAND26782 Posts
wait who are they sponsored by now?
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Netherlands45349 Posts
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On August 20 2012 10:13 Khul Sadukar wrote:
Played this for about 5 minutes and hated it!
Reminds me of War3 too much. Camera seems too close, controls are just odd. Didn't realise you could switch champs mid-game either.
? you can do that ?
Welp how are controls odd ? Arent they the same as in lol ? qwer
Wc3 was such an amazing game :o I played it for like 8years
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and who's the liquid guy playing with aui ?
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Netherlands45349 Posts
Bumblebee, he manages TL.
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On August 20 2012 10:17 flamewheel wrote:
wait who are they sponsored by now?
no one, and Aui doesn't want to talk about sponsors, so probably under some NDA
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I really wish Bumblebee streamed more.
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In a regular sport, it's fairly simple to see how impressive whatever the guy doing is, we all have experience running/jumping/kicking a ball/etc. For games, people don't know how hard it is to do what a pro does unless they play the game. It's just pressing buttons, it's must be easy.
Not even all gamers understand that when talking about diferent games, just see people here on teamliquid talking about how Dota/LoL are easy games that take no skill. WoW is ridiculous, anyone can do that, yet there are a few top guilds that do it far, far better than your regular hardcore gamer for a reason. Diablo takes no skill, yet those guys that did world firsts were able to do things faster and with worse gear than the fast majority of the playerbase. You can see how people completelly disregard other games as "no skill" games in any gaming communitty, it's pretty easy to see, imagine people that are not used to gaming at all.
It's not even somthing unique to games, I've seen people say equestrian competitions must be easy because you just point the horse at the obstacle and it does all the work. It's just what happens when people are not used to the challenge that a certain competition brings.
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what we are having here is a case of members contributing quality discussion and mods spamming useless 1 liner.
Thoughts on the matter?
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Netherlands45349 Posts
to be fair flamewheel isnt a mod, he is just a pony.
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EPT
