General Discussion - Page 861

On August 19 2012 20:28 igotmyown wrote:
The first time I watched dota2, I had no idea what was going on. Even though I played tons of dota(1), I had no idea what each hero was, had no idea what the items were, no idea what the spells were. Suddenly a whole bunch of heroes come together, lots of colors flash, one side inexplicably wins the fight.

I don't understand hockey or soccer strategy at all, but I understand when someone scores and when one team has possession, so it is watchable. If I watch boxing, usually one fighter is punching the other guy more/harder and I get a sense of who has the advantage. I don't have to know hit points or power ratings or balance.

The deeper the video game, the less sense it makes when you watch it for the first time.

On August 19 2012 20:02 Qbek wrote:
Javelin throwing! In dota it would by throwing games by buying 6 javelins :D

On August 19 2012 21:46 writer22816 wrote:
Does anybody else get this when you spec a game?

+ Show Spoiler +

On August 20 2012 02:13 Maski wrote:
Hi,

is there any thread for players looking for a team in the TL Dota 2 section? I only found a "Teams looking for players" one but not the other one round yet.

On August 19 2012 17:48 r.Evo wrote:


What you're describing is a marketing problem, not a problem inherent to games.

Gamers as a whole have a tendency to value information over emotion. [1]

Part of it comes from the - still existing - basement stigma, part of it comes from the ability to interact with others without actually interacting with them. [2]

Now, while this is usually no problem at all within the community a problem arises when you want to sell your game to people from the outside as some kind of "spectator sport". [3]

Ask your average football fan why xy was awesome and he's gonna be like "WHAT? JUST LOOK AT IT OMG WAS SO GOOD DID YOU SEE THAT OMGOMG" while your average gamer will start with "Well, first this was about a pushing setup against a ganking setup but they had so much map awareness that they could see the enemy blablablabla..." - people stop listening right there. [4]

Emotion is what people enjoy about sports. Rivalries. Crying losers and celebrating winners. [5]

E-sport scenes don't have that much of it, that's why they settle for the next best thing: DRAMA. Tobi is probably the greatest example for how things should be when you want to sell them. The trailer for the Valve documentary does the exact same. It's all about emotion, relations and to some degree about the lifestyle.

I can show a Tobi stream to my gf, help a bit with establishing a relationship between the players (who lost when vs who, who are the big rivals, who doesn't like who) and suddenly she's fevering along despite having literally no clue what's going on simply because the casting is on an almost pure emotional level. Tobi isn't great when it comes to analysis, he is weird when casting with other people because he shouts them down but all that doesn't matter since he gets across his excitement for the game.

On August 20 2012 02:57 DefMatrixUltra wrote:


+ Show Spoiler [Yeah, No] +

I think it's sad that, on this site devoted to Starcraft, this kind of attitude is tolerated. A large amount of the emotion and passion for Starcraft come from the exciting live exhibition it makes in combination with a technical understanding of the game.

[1] That's a nice generalization, but it's not any more true of gamers than it is of anyone highly interested in anything.

[2] I am having a lot of trouble deciphering what you are trying to say here (what it has to do with any of the surrounding statements etc.), but really it just sounds like you're poking around with tired stereotypes.

[3] Why would you want to sell it as a spectator sport to people that don't care? There's nothing fundamental about football or American football that makes them superior to chess or diving or fencing or competitive games. It's just that those are the things that happened to catch on since a very long time ago. Trying to take any other sport and set it up as a spectator event is gonna appeal to people that are interested in that sport and not very many others.

[4] This is another nice "all gamers are ranty autistics" stereotype, but it ignores the fact that people that are highly interested in anything can do the exact same thing in relation to their field. Baseball fans can rant for ages about things which 95% of people won't give a shit about, but it makes them intensely happy. Their enjoyment of the game is magnified by their knowledge of the game.

[5] The emotions behind a sport are not generated by the sport itself but the involvement of the fanbase with the players, with the understanding of the sport, and with the excitement of the consequences of the event. Football, diving, fencing, Dota. Absolutely no difference on this front. It's sad to see that there are gamers who tell themselves that gaming is different but in a weird negative way from other hobbies and interests. It's like seeing those women with abusive husbands/boyfriends telling themselves it's their fault. There is absolutely no fundamental difference between being interested in or spectating something like judo or white-water rafting or Starcraft.

Look what I did with your post, I cut it up into organized bits, I must be one of those obsessive fat autistic basement dwellers to which you are so superior.

When you're at the Olympics, even if you have no understanding of the sport, there's still the baseline instinct of rooting for your country. You can empathize with the players on an emotional level. With E-sports there's an inherent barrier to this because of the degree of separation between the player and his character on the screen.

On August 20 2012 04:47 r.Evo wrote:
T_T I hate you moony bear. I also love you. <3



The very fundamental difference between judo, white-water rafting and Starcraft is that the former two have moments where someone with zero knowledge can go out and say "WOW FUCK THAT LOOKED AWESOME". When it comes to games you need a caster conveying that emotional connection to viewers since a little water like creature throwing splashes at someone simply isn't as easy to connect with as two guys smacking each other on the ground. [1]

Besides that, are you genuinely asking why it's a good thing to sell something as a spectator sport? Every person who plays SC2 and tunes into a DotA 2 stream by accident/out of boredom/because someone told him it's cool is a potential customer. Every person who doesn't play games like this usually who you can show the game to is a potential customer. By offering easy entrance into spectating the game you have a higher chance of them actually becoming your customers.

More customers equals a bigger scene, more money, more tournaments, more awesome plays and a better future for a game we all love. [2]

People like Tobi Wan for DotA 2 or Tasteless for BW are some of the few people who are able to convey their emotional connection to the game while also explaining things in a comparatively easy to understand manner. The only piece missing in their casts a lot of the time is a bigger focus on the players and the connections between them. [3]

On August 20 2012 06:09 SilverStar wrote:
Holy wall of text..