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On August 04 2014 05:53 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2014 05:14 crms wrote:
watching idra play HOTS is like the most depressing shit I've ever seen.
Valve taking dota from Blizzard is one of, if not the greatest singular event to ever happen in competitive gaming. Enough with the tribalism, who gets depressed by watching other people have fun? Heroes is fun in 15 minute chunks and for people who just want to fuck around. We already have Dota, what is point of having two dotas?
his point was that if blizzard got to keep dota they would've changed the entire game and driven it into the ground
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well popularity I cant say anything about, but Id be way happier with BW in a new engine than the garbage that is SC2 atm
why blizzard 
/rant mode
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On August 04 2014 05:30 FinestHour wrote:
its ok new naxxramas card boss esport
pretty decent 'expansion' i would say, i have so much gold anyway and finished them quests in literally one go except that 75hp boss cheating
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Czech Republic18921 Posts
On August 04 2014 05:35 Yurie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2014 05:30 SKC wrote:
BW2 would fail hard. SC2 isn't more popular because people don't like playing RTS'. BW2 would be popular with the very small fan base they already had, but it would not be a more popular ESPORTS. Even in WC3 times, a good amount of the playerbase didn't actually play the game "as it should be played", they spent most of the time in customs, teamgames, etc. I bought WC3 +TFT for DotA. Played 3 1v1 Wc3 games during the years I played DotA. Would have been 0 without it.
You actually bought WC3 to play DotA? You have to be like the only player in the world that did that.
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Another big diference is that neither game feels as "clunky" and simply old as BW does. People sometimes complain about turn speeds or denying, but that's not even comparable to the terrible pathing, limited control groups and other necessary features that make BW what it is but don't make sense in a new game. Diferent games, noone cares that the shop is far easier to acess in Dota 2 or that you have quickbuy. Even the vast amount of "bugs" and engine diferences that Dota 2 has would make a bigger diference in a game like BW than it does for Dota.
Being in a new engine would rebalance BW, like it rebalanced a few Dota heroes. That leads to balance patches, and that's a big issue. Think about Melee ported to the Brawl engine, with the same core rules and characters. It would still not be melee. That was the big issue with CS Source, the engine, not the changes.
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On August 04 2014 05:41 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2014 05:38 misirlou wrote:On August 04 2014 05:30 SKC wrote:
BW2 would fail hard. SC2 isn't more popular because people don't like playing RTS'. BW2 would be popular with the very small fan base they already had, but it would not be a more popular ESPORTS. Even in WC3 times, a good amount of the playerbase didn't actually play the game "as it should be played", they spent most of the time in customs, teamgames, etc. They could have exactly done that to BW. Port it to a new engine. Atleast the "casuals" (custom players) would actually play the game and maybe dota 2 would be an SC2 custom instead of a Source game. Take a look at what valve did with CS:Go, they added a cool interface and matchmaking but if you want to play it 2001 cs style, you can still click "browse community server" and the interface is EXACTLY EQUAL to what it was 13 years ago. That's because CS was one of the most popular games on steam. Both 1.6 and Source. So was Dota, even on a shitty plataform. Hardly anyone played BW. It makes far more sense to re-release a game when people are actually playing it. It's a safe bet.
Im not trying to argue BW was more popular than cs, obvs outside of korea it wasn't. But the few people that did play BW or even WC3 for the customs would actually still be buying and playing HotS if those options were there.
I never got to play late WoL or any HotS, I tried some of the arcade and it was still pretty bad. Like imagine a game like DotA or ElementTD where there were several modes. There was litteraly zero way to decide which mode you wanted to play by joining games on that half assed interface. You'd press join a game and play what the leader wanted or host one yourself and hope people randomly joined and didnt leave at start because they disliked the mode you picked. The only way to fully organize this was to add people as friends and meet on forums/irc to make these matches because there were no chat channels for 1year/ 2 years even?.
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Super mario bros 3 on the nes has some of the best controls ever but if you play it on the super nintendo it is awful.
This is kinda related but not really.
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On August 04 2014 06:01 cecek wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2014 05:35 Yurie wrote:On August 04 2014 05:30 SKC wrote:
BW2 would fail hard. SC2 isn't more popular because people don't like playing RTS'. BW2 would be popular with the very small fan base they already had, but it would not be a more popular ESPORTS. Even in WC3 times, a good amount of the playerbase didn't actually play the game "as it should be played", they spent most of the time in customs, teamgames, etc. I bought WC3 +TFT for DotA. Played 3 1v1 Wc3 games during the years I played DotA. Would have been 0 without it. You actually bought WC3 to play DotA? You have to be like the only player in the world that did that.
Yup. Played a lot on B-net with latency reducer. Had probably ~300 games played when I bought it to get rid of the problem. Garena got popular later on, were other solutions available but didn't need them when starting out.
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On August 04 2014 06:03 SKC wrote:
Another big diference is that neither game feels as "clunky" and simply old as BW does. People sometimes complain about turn speeds or denying, but that's not even comparable to the terrible pathing, limited control groups and other necessary features that make BW what it is but don't make sense in a new game. Diferent games, noone cares that the shop is far easier to acess in Dota 2 or that you have quickbuy. Even the vast amount of "bugs" and engine diferences that Dota 2 has would make a bigger diference in a game like BW than it does for Dota.
Being in a new engine would rebalance BW, like it rebalanced a few Dota heroes. That leads to balance patches, and that's a big issue. Think about Melee ported to the Brawl engine, with the same core rules and characters. It would still not be melee. That was the big issue with CS Source, the engine, not the changes.
The "terrible pathing" in BW is actually, in retrospect, perhaps something that wasn't altogether terrible since it allowed for more controll opportunities and use of the system when your units don't always bunch up into a giant ball ala sc2.
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On August 04 2014 06:31 Kupon3ss wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2014 06:03 SKC wrote:
Another big diference is that neither game feels as "clunky" and simply old as BW does. People sometimes complain about turn speeds or denying, but that's not even comparable to the terrible pathing, limited control groups and other necessary features that make BW what it is but don't make sense in a new game. Diferent games, noone cares that the shop is far easier to acess in Dota 2 or that you have quickbuy. Even the vast amount of "bugs" and engine diferences that Dota 2 has would make a bigger diference in a game like BW than it does for Dota.
Being in a new engine would rebalance BW, like it rebalanced a few Dota heroes. That leads to balance patches, and that's a big issue. Think about Melee ported to the Brawl engine, with the same core rules and characters. It would still not be melee. That was the big issue with CS Source, the engine, not the changes. The "terrible pathing" in BW is actually, in retrospect, perhaps something that wasn't altogether terrible since it allowed for more controll opportunities and use of the system when your units don't always bunch up into a giant ball ala sc2.
Sure, but that doesn't mean the developers wouldn't get shit for Dragoon AI in a current game. There is even that developer blog where he talks about how pathing was such a big issue and they couldn't get it to a workable state until right before launch. Even at the time they knew it had issues.
Maybe if they had found a better solution at first the pathing would be better and the game would be worse, but the pathing still sucks.
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Your game controlled like shit, but it was 1998 and we didn't know about better and it made it really hard, so Korea got really good at it for reasons. You should totally make another game that controls like shit, because blobing in a thing that happens in RTS games. And make it a mass market product and spend millions in development. so it can be the best Esport ever. FYI, Esports arn't a thing while you are making this game in 2006-2010, but that's totally besides the point.
And you should totally bring back the user made map community, because that is totally a thing people do in 2010, with free to plays coming out every month. But we will play some tower defense thing in SC2 rather than those.
Times have changed, Hindsight is 20/20 folks.
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On August 04 2014 06:49 Plansix wrote:
Your game controlled like shit, but it was 1998 and we didn't know about better and it made it really hard, so Korea got really good at it for reasons. You should totally make another game that controls like shit, because blobing in a thing that happens in RTS games. And make it a mass market product and spend millions in development. so it can be the best Esport ever. FYI, Esports arn't a thing while you are making this game in 2006-2010, but that's totally besides the point.
And you should totally bring back the user made map community, because that is totally a thing people do in 2010, with free to plays coming out every month. But we will play some tower defense thing in SC2 rather than those.
Times have changed, Hindsight is 20/20 folks.
Except a lot of this stuff was being discussed when SC2 was in early development. Not very thoroughly, of course, but it was. There was even more talk about it during beta, and of course even more during release. It's not like none of it could have been predicted. Designing SC2 to be a perfect Esport? Difficult to be sure. But you can at least expect them to not totally fuck up the amazing custom map system they had in WC3.
I mean, I can understand the poor editor design. They were trying to make a more powerful engine, which they definitely succeeded with, and incidentally lost the amazing accessibility that WC3 had. It's a shame, but I can totally see how it happened, and I can't think I'd ever be above it myself. But the gamefinding system was quite obviously excellent, and any changes to it should have sensibly been additions alone instead of replacements. And there's still no excuse for the lack of daily tournaments. It's almost like the people who used to work at Blizzard all left at some point between SC2 and WC3.
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On August 04 2014 05:53 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2014 05:41 SKC wrote:On August 04 2014 05:38 misirlou wrote:On August 04 2014 05:30 SKC wrote:
BW2 would fail hard. SC2 isn't more popular because people don't like playing RTS'. BW2 would be popular with the very small fan base they already had, but it would not be a more popular ESPORTS. Even in WC3 times, a good amount of the playerbase didn't actually play the game "as it should be played", they spent most of the time in customs, teamgames, etc. They could have exactly done that to BW. Port it to a new engine. Atleast the "casuals" (custom players) would actually play the game and maybe dota 2 would be an SC2 custom instead of a Source game. Take a look at what valve did with CS:Go, they added a cool interface and matchmaking but if you want to play it 2001 cs style, you can still click "browse community server" and the interface is EXACTLY EQUAL to what it was 13 years ago. That's because CS was one of the most popular games on steam. Both 1.6 and Source. So was Dota, even on a shitty plataform. Hardly anyone played BW. It makes far more sense to re-release a game when people are actually playing it. It's a safe bet. Fact, no one but TL gives a fuck about BW. Literally no one. We are the one community who cares about it. 1v1 multi-player experiences are just not a big draw on the modern internet. (don't get me wrong, BW is a great game, but people overstate how broad it's reach was) Show nested quote +On August 04 2014 05:14 crms wrote:
watching idra play HOTS is like the most depressing shit I've ever seen.
Valve taking dota from Blizzard is one of, if not the greatest singular event to ever happen in competitive gaming. Enough with the tribalism, who gets depressed by watching other people have fun? Heroes is fun in 15 minute chunks and for people who just want to fuck around. We already have Dota, what is point of having two dotas?
you're the best poster on the boards for consistently missing the point. I don't want blizzard to make another dota, I don't think we need 2 dotas. All I said is that I'm grateful with everything in my body that blizzard didn't block Valve from making dota 2 or, more clearly, that blizzard DIDNT make dota 2. It would have been colossal shit, the community would be worse, we wouldn't have The International and we'd be stuck inside battle net 2.0. All of the experiences and friends I've made in dota2 would be gone because I would have never played whatever bastardized game blizzard came up with had they retained rights and published dota 2 themselves.
It's depressing watching idra b/c he was a really entertaining community members for years and now he streams to 15 viewers in a game he doesn't even really like all that much.
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What's better is that dota 2 is free
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On August 04 2014 10:35 icystorage wrote:
What's better is that dota 2 is free
It's completely free, and also has tremendous support because of steam, and valve philosophy in general. The ticket system, the spectator functions, community content etc., wouldn't exist in anywhere near the capacity had Blizzard run the game. I'm not kidding when I say valve taking dota 2 over blizzard is one of if not the greatest moments for competitive online gaming.
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On August 04 2014 10:35 icystorage wrote:
What's better is that dota 2 is free
As someone coming from a third world country, I so agree with this.
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well they couldnt do anything else when their major competitor is free ~~
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Once i watched TI2, i switched over from SC2 and never looked back. It's worked out well.
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A certain major competitor takes 320 days of 24/7 play to unlock everything having to do with the balance of game while dota takes a 25 minute tutorial
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EPT
