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Items while smoked is fine IMO. Warding while smoked should be 100% legit and is a great way to set up for more aggression later. Maybe some abilities shouldn't, but overall the fact is that VG and Newbee are just better with their smokes than everyone else. Like too often we see smokes not do anything for most teams and they wander around aimlessly for a while.
I guess you could up the cost. 100 is a bit low I think. Maybe 200 so teams have to consider them or sentries I think. But overall you're going to have a hard time making smoke less effective without just making it completely ineffective for teams that aren't good with it.
As far as ward based push goes, honestly, just giving a couple of ranged carries buffs would even help deal with that. Right now it feels like every carry has to be super tanky to get by Doom and they have to play around that. Give doom less cast range or something and buff some ranged semi carries or full carries and watch as they can't just set up and take towers for free.
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On July 21 2014 12:08 LeLoup wrote:
The reason push is working so well is because teams have been drafting these super tanky cores that need items to be in the middle of everything and fighting. Look at that last game from VG and EG. EG gives up mobility and counter push for tankiness and team fight and end up paying when they can't find a way to start in.
It's also to do with the execution from the teams. Their precision when to fight and when to be aggressive is just on another level. VG and NB just know when they can take it to the enemy and they take full advantage of it.
And sorry but rice fests and split push need this to exist so that we don't get the 50 minute no rush games where teams literally don't cross the river at all. The aggression is amazing and I hope we get even more heroes who can execute it in the future.
I understand there has to be an aggressive strategy like this to prevent those 50 minute ricing games. I just find these sub 17 minutes gg's in games for who goes to the grand finals at TI to be completely underwhelming.
I guess the point of having the experience to draft and execute counter push is valid but the point about when to fight and be aggressive is kind of mute when half of these lineups they are playing against are long CD team fight ulti's like chrono, split, black hole, serpent wards. Most times teams are getting a couple of towers before these even become a factor and with the gold lead and a good spread these ulti's just aren't enough. After using the ulti's it just becomes a free objective for the pushing team, sometimes even with a hero down.
Either way, I understand why teams do it and realize that it works I just find it underwhelming for this stage
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My only problem with being able to ward while smoked it is makes it impossible for the enemy team to tell that you warded. And blinking while smoked is sort of weird to.
I'm 50/50 on it. One part of me thinks it's all fine and it's just the meta and the skills of the teams. Another part of me thinks it's a little to powerful for 100 gold. Maybe if it was a little easier to break th smoke.
Either way, it's a good discussion to have and I'm excited for tomorrow. Hopefully we will get a wide varity of games.
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On July 21 2014 12:38 LeLoup wrote:
Items while smoked is fine IMO. Warding while smoked should be 100% legit and is a great way to set up for more aggression later. Maybe some abilities shouldn't, but overall the fact is that VG and Newbee are just better with their smokes than everyone else. Like too often we see smokes not do anything for most teams and they wander around aimlessly for a while.
I guess you could up the cost. 100 is a bit low I think. Maybe 200 so teams have to consider them or sentries I think. But overall you're going to have a hard time making smoke less effective without just making it completely ineffective for teams that aren't good with it.
As far as ward based push goes, honestly, just giving a couple of ranged carries buffs would even help deal with that. Right now it feels like every carry has to be super tanky to get by Doom and they have to play around that. Give doom less cast range or something and buff some ranged semi carries or full carries and watch as they can't just set up and take towers for free.
I don't think boosting smoke price is going to do anything, they are still going to get used up regardless so you just limit a loosing team from accessing them easily.
Maybe remove the movespeed bonus or change the breaking range or someething, I don't even know.
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icefrog will be telling us what he thinks about the current state of dota soon enough. 6.82 hype!
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I think a big part why pushing is strong right now are awful drafts. You know there was a time when teams would pick their supports before they are commiting on something and teams would actually have supports instead of heros that are played as semi-cores rushing some big item. Everyone tries to get greedier and greedier with their drafts and some teams go back to pushing strats.
I think it is just the normal progression of the game in a month teams will pick defensive lineups and pushing strats will be weak and a month after that teams will pick greedy strats and a "defensive lineup" will lose because they just get outfarmed.
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On July 21 2014 12:46 SpiZe wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2014 12:38 LeLoup wrote:
Items while smoked is fine IMO. Warding while smoked should be 100% legit and is a great way to set up for more aggression later. Maybe some abilities shouldn't, but overall the fact is that VG and Newbee are just better with their smokes than everyone else. Like too often we see smokes not do anything for most teams and they wander around aimlessly for a while.
I guess you could up the cost. 100 is a bit low I think. Maybe 200 so teams have to consider them or sentries I think. But overall you're going to have a hard time making smoke less effective without just making it completely ineffective for teams that aren't good with it.
As far as ward based push goes, honestly, just giving a couple of ranged carries buffs would even help deal with that. Right now it feels like every carry has to be super tanky to get by Doom and they have to play around that. Give doom less cast range or something and buff some ranged semi carries or full carries and watch as they can't just set up and take towers for free. I don't think boosting smoke price is going to do anything, they are still going to get used up regardless so you just limit a loosing team from accessing them easily. Maybe remove the movespeed bonus or change the breaking range or someething, I don't even know.
Or maybe the cooldown timer of buying smokes can be changed ? Like in the first 10 minutes you get like only one smoke and then in mid-late game the smoke viability becomes better. The earlier the game the longer the smoke cooldown and as the goes later the faster the smoke cooldown is.
I really don't know also just throwing out some ideas. Lets hope icefrog does something about it doesn't screw it up.
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I wonder what 6.82 will look like.
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Some pretty big buffs too I'd wager.
Oh and at least one huge mechanical change that will leave most teams scratching their heads on what this new game they are playing even is.
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I'd prefer lots of buffs, personally.
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I'm more looking for mechanical changes, things that might effect laning, objectives like roshan, the pace of the game and so on.
I'm not sure if Icefrog still has the whole shortening the average length of the game in mind still. I'm just looking forward to a change of pace from this patch, that's for sure.
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On July 21 2014 12:59 idonthinksobro wrote:
I think a big part why pushing is strong right now are awful drafts. You know there was a time when teams would pick their supports before they are commiting on something and teams would actually have supports instead of heros that are played as semi-cores rushing some big item. Everyone tries to get greedier and greedier with their drafts and some teams go back to pushing strats.
I think it is just the normal progression of the game in a month teams will pick defensive lineups and pushing strats will be weak and a month after that teams will pick greedy strats and a "defensive lineup" will lose because they just get outfarmed.
this a lot.
also i dont think smokes should be changed that much, if anything, lower the obs cooldown imo.
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Actually, I'm hoping for some terrain change. It's been a while.
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On July 21 2014 12:59 idonthinksobro wrote:
I think a big part why pushing is strong right now are awful drafts. You know there was a time when teams would pick their supports before they are commiting on something and teams would actually have supports instead of heros that are played as semi-cores rushing some big item. Everyone tries to get greedier and greedier with their drafts and some teams go back to pushing strats.
I think it is just the normal progression of the game in a month teams will pick defensive lineups and pushing strats will be weak and a month after that teams will pick greedy strats and a "defensive lineup" will lose because they just get outfarmed.
i agree, i posted about this in that thread about offlane void:
On July 18 2014 06:24 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
i always felt 3 void was just another milestone in the escalation of greed (4 core > 3 core > 2 core > 1 core > push > 4 core)
vg's group stage games were mostly complete stomps because their opponents were drafting newschool 3/4 core while vg just stuck to push lineups disguised as 2-core lineups
it should be obvious to everyone at this point that 90% of vg's drafts aim to push, but eg and dk both drafted too greedy/newschool and got owned. meanwhile, c9 drafted ok but level 1 ros... (and to be honest picking enigma into lich was risky all along, that game definitely wasn't easy for c9 even if they didn't throw it before the horn, but the draft looked winnable)
honestly, 4p1 comps might've been the answer to vg style push, but dk couldn't stop going greedy (drafted a tinker with the am and didnt properly protect the am, etc)
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was at the sf pubstomp today with a couple friends and it was my first time going to a bar for video games
great experience but it was actually so fucking funny every time eg initiated on vg - the crowd would just collectively groan or go completely apeshit depending on the fights.
even with friends, I tend to watch dota silently with brief comments so seeing people go nuts seemed really foreign & hilarious to me.
I was surprised no team drafted kotl/pl against any of these push lineups. at least it seemed like a good solution to what vg was doing.
hopefully 6.82 brings some nerfs to wolfman
smoke is fine as it is, the fact that there's a 10 minute cooldown for 3 is enough.
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On July 21 2014 13:32 rabidch wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2014 12:59 idonthinksobro wrote:
I think a big part why pushing is strong right now are awful drafts. You know there was a time when teams would pick their supports before they are commiting on something and teams would actually have supports instead of heros that are played as semi-cores rushing some big item. Everyone tries to get greedier and greedier with their drafts and some teams go back to pushing strats.
I think it is just the normal progression of the game in a month teams will pick defensive lineups and pushing strats will be weak and a month after that teams will pick greedy strats and a "defensive lineup" will lose because they just get outfarmed. this a lot. also i dont think smokes should be changed that much, if anything, lower the obs cooldown imo.
Obs cooldown has been increased, and should defintaly not be reduced anymore. Vision is a really valueable resource in Dota and should never be as easy to just buy up ward sets before they expire so you gain a huge amount of map control.
Smoke is fine as it is, some teams just still struggle with the exceptional well smoke timing opposed to a "good" smoke, good just isn't enough in TI.
I think Lycan almost needs a full skill rework, i doubt a small nerf affects him regardless. I would go to say as far as making howl only for him and the minions he controls, and making his ult get affected by slows maybe.
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What time is game 1 supposed to start? Sidebar said 5am my time yesterday and now it says 4am.
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EPT
