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General Discussion - Page 534

Forum Index > Dota 2 General
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IRC chatter should remain in IRC - http://webchat.quakenet.org/?channels=tl.dota2

Posts that relate to topics with their own thread, such as in News, Tournaments or Strategy should go in those threads.
Chiharu Harukaze
Profile Joined September 2011
12112 Posts
May 12 2012 00:41 GMT
#10661
If I were to watch a tutorial, I want someone walking me through what they're doing on screen and holding my hand as they go through stuff. Because if I'm a new player, I legit will have no clue what's going on. Text would likely just clutter up the screen (although closed captions are useful for the hard-of-hearing). I don't want to have to work to try and figure out what you're trying to say, because chances are, I won't understand it. Videos are supposed to be about easy access to stuff. If I have to work too hard to figure out something, I'll just go find something else to watch.

The stuff Sunsfan makes on DotACinema is a good example imo. Take his video on Roshan for example. It's not condescending and it's really informative for someone who has no idea what's going on.
It's like, "Is the Federation's Mobile Suit some kind of monster?"
wherebugsgo
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Japan10647 Posts
May 12 2012 06:17 GMT
#10662
anyone get dropped just now from a game?

I was playing and all of a sudden just d/ced, and the play tab is just "find match". Not like it was my internet or anything, cause I checked my browser while my game was in that "auto d/c in 15 seconds" thing
paralleluniverse
Profile Joined July 2010
4065 Posts
May 12 2012 07:01 GMT
#10663
I made a post on the DotA feedback forums about flaws in the game design: http://dev.dota2.com/showthread.php?t=35413

It hasn't been received well, too many closed minded and inarticulate people, saying this is the way DotA is, don't ever change it regardless of the problems, giving no logical reason for their argument. Just no. Here's the post:

Having been in the beta for about a month now, I'll give my thoughts on DotA 2's gameplay. It's an exact port of DotA 1, and so everything that is wrong with DotA 1 is wrong with DotA 2. While I would have preferred some new features and other stuff, here are my main gameplay issues with DotA 1. By extension the exact same issues apply to DotA 2.

1. Games last too long
The average game lasts about 45 minutes. This is way too long, given that most games are decided by the 15-20 minute mark because games are too lopsided (see 2). Consider reducing the average game length to about 30 minutes, by implementing a concede option and making heroes level faster, so that the game progresses faster overall.

2. Games are nearly always too lopsided
This is partly the fault of the bad matchmaker and partly the fault of the penalty for death being too high. If you look at the gold chart or the xp chart or the kill count of some random game, one team nearly always has a large commanding lead by the 15-20 minute mark. This is made worse by the fact that games go on so long that the last 20 minutes is often a needless one-sided slaughter.

Again, reducing the game length and having a concede will solve part of the problem. The other part is that death is too punishing, if you reduced the time and gold penalty for dying, then games will be less one-sided and more fun.

3. No concede option.
In WC3 and SC2 players can gg anytime when the game is clearly lost. The chances of a comeback are often insurmountably improbable in DotA 2 because of how lopsided many matches are. Blizzard does not insist on players continuing until the final building is destroy, so why does Valve insist on ending the game only when an Ancient is destroyed? It is pointless and unnecessary for a game to last 45 minutes when the last 20 minutes is mostly a pointless one-sided slaughter. If one team has a large kill deficit, let them concede by a simple majority vote.

4. Overpowered heroes
Just because you give some of your heroes the role of "carry" doesn't make it legitimate that they remain overpowered. Many of the carry heroes are overpowered, and as a result, they are able to kill most heroes in less than 3 seconds in the late game, leaving no time for reaction. Nerf these heroes. This includes Riki and Ursa, and some of the other carries.

5. Lack of ladder support
This might just be a case of missing features in the beta. This is a competitive game, yet the system to support that competition aren't there. In particular, there is no ladder and the profile leveling system isn't working. When it does work, please ensure that you don't have like 40% of players on level 1, but rather distribute them amongst a bell curve, so that we can tell who is at the top, middle and bottom. E.g. if the levels will range from 1-50, most players should be at around level 25, because most players are average-skilled.
Ack1027
Profile Blog Joined January 2004
United States7873 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-12 07:11:00
May 12 2012 07:10 GMT
#10664
From point 5 alone it is pretty safe to say you don't know much info about dota2 and the rest of your points seem to say you haven't played competitive dota at a decent level for a long enough period. The level system is intentionally disabled atm and only early early beta testers gained xp.

If I'm wrong about that, you can prove me wrong. Or if you choose to say that these things don't matter then I'm not sure how to ever convince you.

Almost 0 pro dota2 players, and those who came from dota1 have EVER complained about the game ' lasting too long '. They don't ever feel the need to pause at 15-20 mins [ as you specifically say ] and say ' Well guys this is an insurmountable lead, let's go to the next game '. If the game really is over then yes they will quit but it is quite rare, not the norm as you say.

Riki and ursa are not overpowered. The only way you could even angle this argument is for pub level only, and the game shouldn't be designed around casual level play.

wherebugsgo
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Japan10647 Posts
May 12 2012 07:17 GMT
#10665
points 1-3 are all the same and can all be solved by including concede.

I have to completely disagree with point 4; for one, not all the heroes have even been implemented. Also, since you consider Ursa OP and needing nerfs...

And I think point 5 is just not implemented yet.
wooozy
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
3813 Posts
May 12 2012 07:17 GMT
#10666
well, i'm not surprised people are flaming you for that
ragnorr
Profile Joined April 2011
Denmark6097 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-12 07:20:49
May 12 2012 07:19 GMT
#10667
I can agree with concede, but when you say ursa is OP you lost legitimacy in questioning game balance..... Also Carries are suppose to be OP as you call it if you allow them to farm thoughout the game without being shut down
Musou
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
1375 Posts
May 12 2012 07:19 GMT
#10668
On May 12 2012 16:01 paralleluniverse wrote:
I made a post on the DotA feedback forums about flaws in the game design: http://dev.dota2.com/showthread.php?t=35413

It hasn't been received well, too many closed minded and inarticulate people, saying this is the way DotA is, don't ever change it regardless of the problems, giving no logical reason for their argument. Just no. Here's the post:

Show nested quote +
Having been in the beta for about a month now, I'll give my thoughts on DotA 2's gameplay. It's an exact port of DotA 1, and so everything that is wrong with DotA 1 is wrong with DotA 2. While I would have preferred some new features and other stuff, here are my main gameplay issues with DotA 1. By extension the exact same issues apply to DotA 2.

1. Games last too long
The average game lasts about 45 minutes. This is way too long, given that most games are decided by the 15-20 minute mark because games are too lopsided (see 2). Consider reducing the average game length to about 30 minutes, by implementing a concede option and making heroes level faster, so that the game progresses faster overall.

2. Games are nearly always too lopsided
This is partly the fault of the bad matchmaker and partly the fault of the penalty for death being too high. If you look at the gold chart or the xp chart or the kill count of some random game, one team nearly always has a large commanding lead by the 15-20 minute mark. This is made worse by the fact that games go on so long that the last 20 minutes is often a needless one-sided slaughter.

Again, reducing the game length and having a concede will solve part of the problem. The other part is that death is too punishing, if you reduced the time and gold penalty for dying, then games will be less one-sided and more fun.

3. No concede option.
In WC3 and SC2 players can gg anytime when the game is clearly lost. The chances of a comeback are often insurmountably improbable in DotA 2 because of how lopsided many matches are. Blizzard does not insist on players continuing until the final building is destroy, so why does Valve insist on ending the game only when an Ancient is destroyed? It is pointless and unnecessary for a game to last 45 minutes when the last 20 minutes is mostly a pointless one-sided slaughter. If one team has a large kill deficit, let them concede by a simple majority vote.

4. Overpowered heroes
Just because you give some of your heroes the role of "carry" doesn't make it legitimate that they remain overpowered. Many of the carry heroes are overpowered, and as a result, they are able to kill most heroes in less than 3 seconds in the late game, leaving no time for reaction. Nerf these heroes. This includes Riki and Ursa, and some of the other carries.

5. Lack of ladder support
This might just be a case of missing features in the beta. This is a competitive game, yet the system to support that competition aren't there. In particular, there is no ladder and the profile leveling system isn't working. When it does work, please ensure that you don't have like 40% of players on level 1, but rather distribute them amongst a bell curve, so that we can tell who is at the top, middle and bottom. E.g. if the levels will range from 1-50, most players should be at around level 25, because most players are average-skilled.


Seems like LoL would be a better fit for you than Dota. Dota players like it how it is now. It's really only in low level games where it becomes extremely one-sided and dragged out because the team that's winning simply doesn't know how to end the game. Most advantages aren't insurmountable in Dota. Just look at the recent competitive games like the recent LGD vs MUFC where LGD had a 4 rax advantage, played too safe, and ended up losing the game. It's actually very rare for games to be too lopsided once you reach a decent MMR. Again, all the "problems" you're describing only apply to the lowest tier. What you are trying to do is change the game for the Bronze players when at Master's, it's just fine. There are no "overpowered" heroes, even carries. Every hero has a way they can be countered. Sometimes heroes are easier to use than to counter, but that's just the nature of the game.
RockIronrod
Profile Joined May 2011
Australia1369 Posts
May 12 2012 07:21 GMT
#10669
Well the people there were right you know. Given that you've only played for a month, you really shouldn't be talking about "overpowered heroes" and whatnot. Like, Riki and Ursa are two of the most easily countered carries. And really, your first three points are pretty much the exact same thing. You want a concede option because games last too long due to a winning team not ending. This has been discussed to death and there's a huge topic on it on this very forum.

Imagine if someone played Starcraft 2 for a month and started giving Blizzard design tips from their Silver league experiences, that's pretty much exactly what you're doing.
cilinder007
Profile Joined August 2010
Slovenia7251 Posts
May 12 2012 07:22 GMT
#10670
from point 4 you can see that you are new to the game and are basing your views from a pub standpoint, its like basing sc2 balancing from ladder

you say 3 seconds is no time for reaction, ye maybe at low level pub games, again thats not how you balance a game

LoL has no gold loss on death and as Im aware games there are 10 times more lobsided than in dota, so I doubt that is a solution, also leads to more boring gameplay with only farming
Stancel
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
Singapore15360 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-12 07:26:14
May 12 2012 07:24 GMT
#10671
I'm curious - how many games did you play in the month of the beta?

From points 1 and 2, I'd be willing to bet not enough and frankly speaking, if 'most games are decided by the 15-20' minute mark, just what was either team doing in your games?


too many closed minded and inarticulate people


lol
ffxiv enjoyer
rabidch
Profile Joined January 2010
United States20289 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-12 07:33:31
May 12 2012 07:29 GMT
#10672
On May 12 2012 16:01 paralleluniverse wrote:
I made a post on the DotA feedback forums about flaws in the game design: http://dev.dota2.com/showthread.php?t=35413

It hasn't been received well, too many closed minded and inarticulate people, saying this is the way DotA is, don't ever change it regardless of the problems, giving no logical reason for their argument. Just no. Here's the post:

Show nested quote +
Having been in the beta for about a month now, I'll give my thoughts on DotA 2's gameplay. It's an exact port of DotA 1, and so everything that is wrong with DotA 1 is wrong with DotA 2. While I would have preferred some new features and other stuff, here are my main gameplay issues with DotA 1. By extension the exact same issues apply to DotA 2.

1. Games last too long
The average game lasts about 45 minutes. This is way too long, given that most games are decided by the 15-20 minute mark because games are too lopsided (see 2). Consider reducing the average game length to about 30 minutes, by implementing a concede option and making heroes level faster, so that the game progresses faster overall.

2. Games are nearly always too lopsided
This is partly the fault of the bad matchmaker and partly the fault of the penalty for death being too high. If you look at the gold chart or the xp chart or the kill count of some random game, one team nearly always has a large commanding lead by the 15-20 minute mark. This is made worse by the fact that games go on so long that the last 20 minutes is often a needless one-sided slaughter.

Again, reducing the game length and having a concede will solve part of the problem. The other part is that death is too punishing, if you reduced the time and gold penalty for dying, then games will be less one-sided and more fun.

3. No concede option.
In WC3 and SC2 players can gg anytime when the game is clearly lost. The chances of a comeback are often insurmountably improbable in DotA 2 because of how lopsided many matches are. Blizzard does not insist on players continuing until the final building is destroy, so why does Valve insist on ending the game only when an Ancient is destroyed? It is pointless and unnecessary for a game to last 45 minutes when the last 20 minutes is mostly a pointless one-sided slaughter. If one team has a large kill deficit, let them concede by a simple majority vote.

4. Overpowered heroes
Just because you give some of your heroes the role of "carry" doesn't make it legitimate that they remain overpowered. Many of the carry heroes are overpowered, and as a result, they are able to kill most heroes in less than 3 seconds in the late game, leaving no time for reaction. Nerf these heroes. This includes Riki and Ursa, and some of the other carries.

5. Lack of ladder support
This might just be a case of missing features in the beta. This is a competitive game, yet the system to support that competition aren't there. In particular, there is no ladder and the profile leveling system isn't working. When it does work, please ensure that you don't have like 40% of players on level 1, but rather distribute them amongst a bell curve, so that we can tell who is at the top, middle and bottom. E.g. if the levels will range from 1-50, most players should be at around level 25, because most players are average-skilled.

for no 1, that kind of mentality disappears as your skill level gets higher. usually high skill players who know wtf they're doing will want to end asap since they're impatient and know it's a waste of time to drag games out, or they know they'll have more trouble later on.

no 2. matchmaking is really the part of the game thats still in beta, same with point no. 5

no 3. discussed forever, no comment

no 4. /10
LiquidDota StaffOnly a true king can play the King.
Erasme
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Bahamas15899 Posts
May 12 2012 07:29 GMT
#10673
As I played a bit of LoL, you just described it. If you still feel this way in 2/3weeks, you should give it a try :o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7lxwFEB6FI “‘Drain the swamp’? Stupid saying, means nothing, but you guys loved it so I kept saying it.”
NB
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Netherlands12045 Posts
May 12 2012 07:34 GMT
#10674
heroes are overpower? HAHAHAHAH
Im daed. Follow me @TL_NB
Nevuk
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States16280 Posts
May 12 2012 07:48 GMT
#10675
Ursa is a little strong in low level pubs but he's really not imba even then, just easy to play. Same thing applies to Lich and it's the reason why they have the two highest winrates in pub games.

As far as concede goes, I would be all for it being available but only under certain conditions that aren't just like "past 30 minutes" but rather focus on how far behind a team is. Comebacks are almost always possible but in a pub coordinating a team to come back from a 3-25 hero kill deficit in laning is pretty much not possible if that team wound up in that position in the first place.
Esoterikk
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada1256 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-12 08:08:21
May 12 2012 08:00 GMT
#10676
Your skill at the game directly correlates to how overpowered heroes are going to seem, heroes like ursa exploit bad players and are generally pretty counter-able, I mean have you tried getting a ghost scepter or a slow?

Also does EG really deserve an invite to the international? I mean unless they start putting up some wins here soon and show that they are solid I think there are other teams that are more deserving. They have some great players but the shuffling and lack of a real splash lately makes me a bit iffy.

On the other hand I guess a lot of teams have been shuffling lately, who knows.
Erasme
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Bahamas15899 Posts
May 12 2012 08:08 GMT
#10677
^
This has already been discussed, it's not because they have a period of no results that they should be eliminated. They finished third at the defense and have an all around good roster.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7lxwFEB6FI “‘Drain the swamp’? Stupid saying, means nothing, but you guys loved it so I kept saying it.”
Crissaegrim
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
2947 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-12 08:21:33
May 12 2012 08:20 GMT
#10678
@parallelU Maybe you should listen to the wise words of SingSing(competitive dota 2 player and allstar streamer) who said - "This game is too fucking hard, time to transition to league of fucking legends."
zeehar
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Korea (South)3804 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-12 08:32:02
May 12 2012 08:25 GMT
#10679
this is equivalent to a bronze player on sc2 telling blizz how to balance the game

ursa OP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i've played 535 hours of dota2 (according to steam) and i still think i'm a noob and not knowledgable to speak about balance... and here you are having played for a month (if that), with no significant experience in dota1, and you already think your opinions on the game should be reflected...

the good thing is, valve isn't going to take you seriously. yay.

also, quick tip for playing against ursa: stun him. gg.
I AM THE UNIVERSAL CONSTANT
dragonborn
Profile Joined January 2012
4781 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-12 08:52:14
May 12 2012 08:39 GMT
#10680
only tide is too stronK in pub games because you have zero coordination with team mates~

but its a pub game, who cares?

nothing wrong in competitive scene.
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