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Jaeger
United States1150 Posts
On February 19 2014 20:02 govie wrote: I think you guys forget his big assets, ult and SoF. If someone has some level of gamesence its hard to kill an ember, Although in some situations SoF makes killing ember easier given that it returns to a fixed point you may find an arrow or a black hole waiting on you in some situations. | ||
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AwfuL_
Netherlands6976 Posts
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TheTenthDoc
United States9561 Posts
On February 20 2014 06:43 AwfuL_ wrote: This hero needs farm to make sure he gets his core items, then go on a ganking spree with his high damage output and strong, fairly reliable initiation. The thing is he is a better safelaner than a mid, and if you're gonna put a farmer in the safelane there would seem to be better options that offer your team more, like Luna. Ember is much better versus heavy split push than Luna (global teleport), is much harder to catch out than Luna (again, global teleport), and offers much better initiation and CC. I wouldn't say one offers teams in general more than the other. | ||
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Comeh
United States18919 Posts
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teddyoojo
Germany22369 Posts
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FinestHour
United States18466 Posts
On February 20 2014 10:01 Comeh wrote: No idea why you guys are comparing Luna and Ember as if they are similar. they forgot to add sven or magnus+melee hero or ta vs 5 enemy heroes all standing in a line | ||
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hariooo
Canada2830 Posts
On February 20 2014 06:38 Jaeger wrote: Although in some situations SoF makes killing ember easier given that it returns to a fixed point you may find an arrow or a black hole waiting on you in some situations. Ember Spirit has a cast point of 0. Played properly by shift-queuing remnants after SoF, it is not a foregone conclusion that SoF will be punished, at least by skills that require such as Sacred Arrow. On February 20 2014 06:43 AwfuL_ wrote: This hero needs farm to make sure he gets his core items, then go on a ganking spree with his high damage output and strong, fairly reliable initiation. The thing is he is a better safelaner than a mid, and if you're gonna put a farmer in the safelane there would seem to be better options that offer your team more, like Luna. Ember contributes a lot to teamfights where he has time to get off at least 2-3 SoF's, which means he needs a team that can draw attention. Usually this means playing Ember as a 2 is much better with a more "important" core in the safe lane, such that Ember is left unmolested to do huge physical burst with a BF-stacking build. While Ember needs farm to be able to potentially do big damage, he can't be the only threat in a team; he's too easily singled out and dealt with. On February 20 2014 09:26 TheTenthDoc wrote: Ember is much better versus heavy split push than Luna (global teleport), is much harder to catch out than Luna (again, global teleport), and offers much better initiation and CC. I wouldn't say one offers teams in general more than the other. Luna will offer more in general. All things equal, Luna is almost always the safer pick. She'll always be powerful in the mid to late game without qualifications. While Ember has the strongest lategame anti-push in the game and, in my opinion, has more explosive teamfight potential at all points in the game, he is easier to deal with most of the time. | ||
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Excludos
Norway8278 Posts
On February 20 2014 10:03 teddyoojo wrote: i think the stats on how often someone dodged a game in loading phase should be shown publicly without an option to turn it off Why exactly? How would that help you exactly? If they've loaded into the game, does it help you to look at a number in their profile so you can go "haha, you have a shit computer"? Once they've loaded into your game, it doesn't matter how many times before they haven't. Or if they fail to load into your game..again, it doesn't help you one bit to be able to check how often this happens to this person. edit: if you're talking about the "loading phase" as in before the first creepwave starts..then again, that doesn't help you either. What do you plan to do with this information? They get punished and sent into low prio bracket. Thats incentive enough not to leave a game. | ||
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teddyoojo
Germany22369 Posts
its kinda a problem atm, it takes like 5 tries to get a game cuz everyone someones dodging | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
In pubs, you can get away with a lot on Ember despite this because when his level 5/6/7 power picks up in lane, many players inexperienced at dealing with the hero can be caught off guard, which allows you to make back a lot of ground, and likewise, the hero's mobility can be abused to catch gank opportunities post-level 6. But in competitive play, it's far more often to see the opposing mid laner play their advantage appropriately, and much harder for a weak laner who started out way behind to miraculously find his way back into the game. | ||
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TheTenthDoc
United States9561 Posts
On February 20 2014 10:01 Comeh wrote: No idea why you guys are comparing Luna and Ember as if they are similar. Well, they are both heavy farm heroes with AoE physical damage that scale well with items into the mid to late game and vacuum up the farm on your side of the map when played to the fullest. | ||
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Doraemon
Australia14949 Posts
On February 20 2014 03:50 Excludos wrote: OMFG its real! It only took them 3 years! wooo. finally get to see dendi's sister XD | ||
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Comeh
United States18919 Posts
On February 20 2014 10:23 TheTenthDoc wrote: Well, they are both heavy farm heroes with AoE physical damage that scale well with items into the mid to late game and vacuum up the farm on your side of the map when played to the fullest. Luna is a solid trilaner. Luna is considered a hero well put for push lineups due to her aura. Luna has a teamfight spell that procs like jugg's ult, but isn't comparable to any spell that Ember has. Luna is a BKB carrier, a hero that can get manta and split push, and is all about good positioning and staying away from danger in teamfights. Ember has like none of those traits, and those are all of the important ones that luna has. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
If the pace of the game slows down, the game might be more accommodating to Ember, but as it stands right now, the pace of the game is quite fast and favors carries with stronger earlier timings. Since mid-last year teams have gotten far better at maintaining advantages even against teams that are very powerful at defending high ground, which is one of Ember's major strengths. On the whole teams have evened out their map control/farm distribution from an advantage (arguably this has been a defining aspect of some of the best teams in the world in their prime, such as iG post TI2 or Alliance throughout the first half of 2013) so that you can't just give up that early advantage and expect to suddenly take it back defending your high ground. Ember can't afford to be as weak as he is in lane and at his 1st major item timing if he wants to see competitive play. | ||
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Comeh
United States18919 Posts
On February 20 2014 10:33 TheYango wrote: Luna has stronger laning and a much more powerful 1st item timing. Luna's 2nd item timing can be awkward if she doesn't get a strong start with her BKB, and Ember's 2nd item timing is arguably stronger, but with the current pace of the game, a strong 2nd item timing isn't as valuable as Luna's 1st item BKB timing. If the pace of the game slows down, the game might be more accommodating to Ember, but as it stands right now, the pace of the game is quite fast and favors carries with stronger earlier timings. Also, one of Ember's issues is that he is a hero that will require a BKB in most games (assuming the opposing captain isn't caught with his pants down), but delaying a second damage item for him usually costs the game. I just don't feel like the hero is that good, but maybe I'm missing something. | ||
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TheTenthDoc
United States9561 Posts
On February 20 2014 10:29 Comeh wrote: Luna is a solid trilaner. Luna is considered a hero well put for push lineups due to her aura. Luna has a teamfight spell that procs like jugg's ult, but isn't comparable to any spell that Ember has. Luna is a BKB carrier, a hero that can get manta and split push, and is all about good positioning and staying away from danger in teamfights. Ember has like none of those traits, and those are all of the important ones that luna has. Uh, Sleight of Fist is heavily reliant on low creep density to be effective (just like Eclipse). He also has amazing split push once he gets BoTs (just as Luna gets good split push with Manta) and requires expert positioning to not get silenced the second he pops out of SoF. They're obviously not interchangeable, because Icefrog isn't total shit at designing heroes, but I would say they occupy more similar roles than, say, Mirana and Luna. I don't think he's "better" or "worse," though, just comparable. I do fear for the massive Ember Spirit feeders in AP, though. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
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Belisarius
Australia6233 Posts
I guess they're both multi-target physical carries that can also nuke things, but that's a very simplistic way to evaluate a hero. In terms of their power curve, timings, goals and mobility, they are tremendously different, and those things are often more important to a draft. I would understand it if people were trying to sit down and lay out the reasons you would pick ember, and then demonstrate that Luna is superior in all of those cases... but as soon as you try to do that it becomes apparent that they bring and require different things. | ||
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Comeh
United States18919 Posts
On February 20 2014 10:42 TheYango wrote: Luna's pretty much never a good split-pusher compared to most playable carries at similar item timings without some pretty unconventional item choices. Yeah thats true, I sort of overemphasized that. But as a whole shes used often in push lineups (different from splitpush) | ||
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trinxified
Canada7774 Posts
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