EPTGeneral Discussion - Page 4325
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Dead9
United States4725 Posts
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trinxified
Canada7774 Posts
Even linkens is probably more legit. Blocks a lot of these bkb piercing stuff too. | ||
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cecek
Czech Republic18921 Posts
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trinxified
Canada7774 Posts
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cecek
Czech Republic18921 Posts
Seriously tho, mana regen Sniper is legit. Early game aquilla arcane boots, push tower with shrapnel. Lategame spam Assassinate 24/7, it's impossible to fight into that... You hit the same hero twice before the fight starts (which is really easy with the huge range and tiny cooldown), and the hero can't fight at all. | ||
CosmicSpiral
United States15275 Posts
On November 12 2013 14:30 Witten wrote: Wait what? You just said that Aquila doesn't give enough mana regen, then you double back and see its unneeded because Void doesn't have any spells to spam in lane? And you do know that he still gets the mana regen when the aquila is turned off, right? Turning off the aquila only affects whether the creeps get the bonus armor or not. Aquila toggling does nothing to his mana regen, so what the heck are you trying to get at? I'm super confused by what you're trying to suggest here. Aquila doesn't give him enough mana regeneration when it becomes a major issue for that character . At the point where most carries build Aquila, Void is conserving his mana for Time Walk. He either uses it to escape pressure or engage on an trapped enemy. It's not like he has a Mystic Snake or Lucent Beam that can pressure the opponent. You usually just accept that fact and try to rush towards a core item instead. Mana regen becomes an issue after the laning phase ends and you want to start hopping between the jungle and lanes. The high mana cost of Walk and his poor INT gain make that a problem unless you went Battlefury, and if you went BF it takes a very long time to get damage items. RoA doesn't help much in that circumstance. Oh, I didn't know that. I never buy that item lol. Stupid me. | ||
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trinxified
Canada7774 Posts
On November 12 2013 14:42 cecek wrote: I feel like the euls active doesn't synergize at all with sniper. You euls yourself, but oyu have no escape when you come down, so you probably die anyway. And when you euls the enemy, you have nothing to set up with it. On the other hand, silence is always going to be useful, and the attack speed speed is handy if you transition into dps way later. Seriously tho, mana regen Sniper is legit. Early game aquilla arcane boots, push tower with shrapnel. Lategame spam Assassinate 24/7, it's impossible to fight into that... You hit the same hero twice before the fight starts (which is really easy with the huge range and tiny cooldown), and the hero can't fight at all. Oh I love mana regen on Sniper so I agree with your game plan. Eul's though is for the movespeed, and not to Eul's yourself but to Eul's whoever is chasing/ganking you. When 2+ people chase you, silence won't save you. Could be worse actually since they'll still move towards you. Much cheaper as well. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
Without Battle Fury, your farming speed isn't gated by how fast you jump around the map. It's gated by how fast you kill things. So getting items that kill things faster would speed up your farming more than having some extra mana regen, while also being outright more useful for fighting. | ||
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Comeh
United States18919 Posts
On November 12 2013 14:49 TheYango wrote: If you get Battle Fury, you have the mana regeneration to use Time Walk to farm. If you don't go Battle Fury, your time spent killing camps is the majority of your jungling time, not the time moving between camps, so the relative gain of getting the mana regen to use Time Walk on CD isn't enough to justify it. Without Battle Fury, your farming speed isn't gated by how fast you jump around the map. It's gated by how fast you kill things. So getting items that kill things faster would speed up your farming more than having some extra mana regen, while also being outright more useful for fighting. The only problem about using timewalk to farm is that its your only escape mechanism (besides blowing chrono...i guess), and it has a relatively long cooldown / high mana cost. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On November 12 2013 13:33 CosmicSpiral wrote: I don't like the BF build either as it takes him way too long to become relevant. But basic Maelstrom builds don't give him mana regeneration either and once you exit the laning stage, you're stuck walking around and following creep lanes instead of flash farming. Ancient stacking is annoying too; Chain Lightning doesn't work. The problem with your mindset here is you're trying to find a one-size fits all item that lets you do everything. You want the farming power of Battle Fury with the combat power of fighting items. That's simply not practical, and you've resulted in a build that's worse than both at either. You can't farm as well as if you had Battle Fury. You can't fight as well as if you had MoM/Mael/BKB/etc. You end up being mediocre at both, rather than being good at one which the particular game needs you to be good at. Figure out what route of item development suits the game in question and get farming items if you need to farm or fighting items if you need to fight. Don't try to find a one-size-fits-all item that's poor at both because you can't evaluate the times when each individual item is needed. | ||
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nojok
France15846 Posts
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CosmicSpiral
United States15275 Posts
On November 12 2013 14:31 Dead9 wrote: how does orchid help against bkb piercing ultis any more than bkb? orchid isn't going to do anything unless your opponents stand in vision range so you can blink in and orchid them One of my main issues with the character is that once he blows ultimate and Time Walk, he contributes nothing to the fight. Usually he has to use Time Walk to get in unless he has Venge or Blink Dagger, and you don't buy Blink on him ever. If everything goes well you handily win the team fight; if they don't die, you're forced to chase. And in that aspect he does nothing either. He has to wait 7 more seconds for Time Walk in order to chase down an opponent. He only has one stun that works point-blank. He's pretty bad at solo ganking without using Chronosphere. He has to buy BKB to be effective in the lategame and there are plenty of ways to get around that. Then take into account that he wants items that work in a team fight (for him, damage and IAS) but he's squishy and has a small mana pool. That in turn hurts Void again since unlike many other carries, his natural skill set is not great for farming. AM + Battlefury works due to exceptional BAT and cheap Blink, Medusa has Split Shot and Mystic Snake, Morphling has Waveform and Replicate, etc. Void has a bash and a really expensive blink. I was imagining that Orchid could be used to solve his INT gain problem while helping to contribute to team fights. It would completely solve his mana issues without just being a mana item as it provides damage and IAS. He can silence opponents before/after Chronosphere with Soul Burn, which would help against characters like Bane and Beastmaster while stopping Windrunner/Mirana/etc from running away. You could use the Silence in solo ganks and save the ultimate while slowing them down with Time Walk. Perhaps it could be a luxury item after you get Butterfly as it would cut too deeply into your damage output beforehand. But by that time you've probably won the game so there would be no point to it... On November 12 2013 14:34 cecek wrote: Orchid is probably my favorite item in the game. I build it on lifestealer, bristleback, spirit breaker, sniper (assassinate spam OP), skeleton king and many more heroes every game I have the money. That being said, I still wouldn't build it on a Void. I feel as a Void you don't really have much leeway in terms of items you can get. You just need damage (and bkb) otherwise you just can't carry a game, imo. He needs damage and BKB and tankiness (in case he fails Chrono) and so many other things to even start carrying in the first place. On November 12 2013 14:34 trinxified wrote: Forget orchid on void that's bottom line. Getting a necrobook, agh's, refresher are all better than orchid pickup. All of those are suboptimal but has more use and synergy than orchid. Even linkens is probably more legit. Blocks a lot of these bkb piercing stuff too. The characters you usually get Linkens on have good options to disengage from a fight. It works on Weaver, Morphling, and Medusa but those are all ranged heroes who can save those options. Void needs to get in your face to be scary and he uses his escape tool to do so. If he gets stunned he's either boned or takes so much damage that he has to retreat. It's a long shot and you're probably right on everything you said before. I'm just tired of dealing with all of his problems. FV is really limited as a hero and he does so little compared to others that fill his role. I've tried experimenting with all types of alternate builds and they don't work in the end. On November 12 2013 14:57 TheYango wrote: The problem with your mindset here is you're trying to find a one-size fits all item that lets you do everything. You want the farming power of Battle Fury with the combat power of fighting items. That's simply not practical, and you've resulted in a build that's worse than both at either. You can't farm as well as if you had Battle Fury. You can't fight as well as if you had MoM/Mael/BKB/etc. You end up being mediocre at both, rather than being good at one which the particular game needs you to be good at. Figure out what route of item development suits the game in question and get farming items if you need to farm or fighting items if you need to fight. Don't try to find a one-size-fits-all item that's poor at both because you can't evaluate the times when each individual item is needed. Choosing between BF and Maelstrom is just a matter of accepting what role you want. BF is fine if the rest of your team is willing to stall it out until you start getting stuff like Daedalus. I don't like BF because I don't believe he can afford to play passive for the first 30 minutes of the game right now. So I choose Armlet/Maelstrom builds most of the time and try to contribute in the midgame. Maelstrom -> Mjollnir or Maelstrom -> Hyperstone -> AC is the closest you can get to satisfying both. What I was illustrating is that Void has a severe problem when deciding between one or the other, and he has problems with almost every other facet of his game too. He's not a strong character with identifiable weaknesses that can be played around: he's a thorny one who demands too much for a team and his item builds to be a practical choice. | ||
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rabidch
United States20289 Posts
nuff said. | ||
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Comeh
United States18919 Posts
On November 12 2013 15:41 rabidch wrote: if you want to fight early dont pick void. or farm faster. nuff said. If you aren't teamfighting on void a decent amount in the mid game with void, you probably are losing the game. BF actually makes him fight alright tbh. | ||
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hideo
Canada1641 Posts
You need to have this stingy attitude where you preferentially rely on allies' stun/slow to make a kill rather than using one of your critical casts. Picking somebody off without needing to use chronosphere is often a won fight. If your team is wholly dependent on the void for initiation and CC, then you fucked up your draft. Plan ahead and ration out your ability usage for the entirety of a fight not just the opening clash. The later you use a chronosphere, the more impactful it becomes IMO. There's more opportunity for bunching enemy heroes (people tunnel-visioning a wounded hero for example), your teammates are guaranteed to be in prime position to capitalize, and heroes are at a lower HP which means less likelihood of needing to chase post-chrono. In my ideal void teamfight I'd be able to space out my BKB use and chronosphere cast to maximize the time I can freely DPS. For example, hide until spotting disabler/teamfight CC/support. Then timewalk onto him and whack away until they react, trigger-finger pop BKB, and there's 2 things the enemy team can do. If they try to save the disabler or focus me, they risk multi-man chronosphere. If they spread out to mitigate chronosphere threat, then I'm free to run down the disabler(s) who once dead can no longer interfere with the imminent carry vs. carry showdown under chrono which is intensely stacked in my favour. | ||
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cecek
Czech Republic18921 Posts
I used to go Bottle, Treads, Shadow Blade, Orchid, later bkb. It was really amazing for ganking (you know they don't see you use shadowblade, you can solokill really well with silence, can farm and splitpush really fast with orchid regen, etc.), it started getting problematic when enemies 5 man, but you could usually farm your way to a bkb reasonably fast when you need to teamfight. Now I'm not really sure about the build. The shadowblade nerf really hit it, and the new ult is also not that good for ganking either. What the new ult is really good at is not dying, if you have all your spells on cooldown, 90% of team compositions just can't kill you. I'm almost thinking you should play him as a splitpusher now, just because he's so hard to kill even if you go under a tower. I haven't tried it yet, but I think Bottle, Treads, Soul Ring, Necrobook might be really good. I don't think you can skip the soul ring, you really need the mana regen. Maybe you could do Vlads instead? It's really good for pushing, but I don't think it's enough mana regen, and going both soul ring and vlads seems like too many little items. What do you people think? | ||
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Cool Cat
United States1644 Posts
On November 12 2013 14:02 Cool Cat wrote: are you trying to be sarcastic please use the appropriate punctuation if you are pls respond | ||
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RuskiPanda
United States2906 Posts
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cecek
Czech Republic18921 Posts
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igotmyown
United States4291 Posts
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