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United States47024 Posts
On November 04 2013 02:23 teapoted wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2013 02:16 zezamer wrote:On November 04 2013 01:39 teapoted wrote:
As I've said multiple times before. All carry players are shit.
ZSMJ return disappointing. Move to support, now he's amazing. Fear carry medicore. Move to support, amazing. The only one that doesn't fit this is XBOCT, but he only plays support when he's lagging.
It just has to do with people not understanding carry play. I mean people praise Burning. But Burning really doesn't perform better than the carries who get flamed. It's because every death to someone you hate means he's shit. Burning dies it's like 'eh whatever'. So Zhou(getting flamed a lot) is performing on the same level as Burning(gettingpraised)? Like burning doesnt die in silly ways that much =) I think you missed the point. Obviously people perform at different levels but in general carry players are criticized a lot more than players in every other position. To the point where if you just read comments you'd think all carry players are terrible.
I think that's generally because at a low level, it's easier to see the immediate game impact of a carry's mistakes than of other heroes, since their high farm priority means they have long death timers and are supposed to have high impact in a fight, so when they do something wrong it's much more noticeable to many people.
It's not some psychological stigma against carries--it's just that with a base understanding of the game, it's easier to criticize higher position players because the negative impact of their mistakes is more visible.
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On November 04 2013 01:41 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2013 01:32 teapoted wrote:On November 04 2013 01:29 dfs wrote:On November 04 2013 01:26 teapoted wrote:
He is a player for EG which people blame all their losses for ignoring the fact that they have a captain who gets drowned in praise who might actually be a bigger part of the issues that team has. The only issue Fear has is that he is only 1 man and he can't have a team that consists only of himself. Yes, reading TL you'd think Fear is the greatest player on earth. I have a hard time not blaming the way EG loses on the captain. As it has been this way through multiple line-ups. Not that fear is a bad player, but I can't see how he's a good captain if his players always play bad. Jeyo didn't play this bad on other teams. He was always criticised sure, but not like this. Putting together a talented team is hard and there is a subset of "high level" players are developed nasty habits of blaming their team mates. That sort of stuff happens in professional sports, but those teams have coaches that manage those issues. Also, other teams, more established teams liked Na'vi and Alliance won't have the issues as much with new players, because what new player is going to blame Dendi or Puppy? Fear has a rough job and making a competitive team is going to require them to break some eggs. Show nested quote +On November 04 2013 01:40 Gevna wrote:
Well I don't think anyone can deny Fear is a really skilled player. As a captain I don't know, but definitely one of the top player based on individual skill. And Empire has been on fire lately, you can't blame EG so much for losing against them, it's probably better to reckon Empire's performance. Being a captain is not a skill you develop over night, it takes time. Its about managing people as much as knowing the game. No one wakes up in the morning and is Puppy.
I feel like people don't remember that when Fear and Puppey played together, Fear was the captain. He's fuckin' good at it. There's a reason EG chose to build exclusively around him after the failure to qualify for TI3. It's not just because he gets circlejerked.
And it's not like this is new. Going back to the last EG lineup, there were a lot of people really unconvinced by Jeyo both as a carry and as a mid. A lot of those same people were pretty dubious when Fear kept him around to play the carry. Apparently he's got a really good work ethic. It's hard to see it translating into any real performances though. It's too easy to watch an EG match and see the deficiencies.
Sometimes it's decisionmaking. In game 2, Scandal Blinked into all five of EG, at their mid tier two. He had no real backup. He Lassoed Fogged, got stunned and was promptly blown the fuck up. Jeyo Lucent Beamed him, then activated BKB and Eclipse. Nothing happened, and then there was a teamfight and EG got owned.
More often, though, he's just not very good at rightclicking things. How often does he come out of the midgame head-and-shoulders above everyone in farm? Like, never. Even when he's got completely free farm, he gets into the midgame 20 to 30 CS behind his opposite number and never catches up. It makes me think of EG's trip to China, actually, when they became a markedly better team just by having Luo AFK farming things instead of Playmate.
I'm not saying Jeyo is completely garbage, but he's not suited to what he's doing. He's never been a good carry, and his last really impressive performances were two years ago, in a different role, in a different meta, on a team that doesn't exist anymore. Since then, it's been almost entirely downhill.
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Edit: I get what people are saying with carries being criticized more than other roles. But I think you can see in Fear's drafting lately a reluctance to play a farming style. There's been a lot of Jeyo Juggernaut and Luna and experimentation with Lycan and Necrolyte. Those aren't heroes you pick if you want to drag a game out.
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On November 04 2013 01:41 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2013 01:40 Gevna wrote:
Well I don't think anyone can deny Fear is a really skilled player. As a captain I don't know, but definitely one of the top player based on individual skill. And Empire has been on fire lately, you can't blame EG so much for losing against them, it's probably better to reckon Empire's performance. Being a captain is not a skill you develop over night, it takes time. Its about managing people as much as knowing the game. No one wakes up in the morning and is Puppy.
Sam Beckett can.
+ Show Spoiler +
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United Kingdom24425 Posts
On November 04 2013 02:44 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2013 02:23 teapoted wrote:On November 04 2013 02:16 zezamer wrote:On November 04 2013 01:39 teapoted wrote:
As I've said multiple times before. All carry players are shit.
ZSMJ return disappointing. Move to support, now he's amazing. Fear carry medicore. Move to support, amazing. The only one that doesn't fit this is XBOCT, but he only plays support when he's lagging.
It just has to do with people not understanding carry play. I mean people praise Burning. But Burning really doesn't perform better than the carries who get flamed. It's because every death to someone you hate means he's shit. Burning dies it's like 'eh whatever'. So Zhou(getting flamed a lot) is performing on the same level as Burning(gettingpraised)? Like burning doesnt die in silly ways that much =) I think you missed the point. Obviously people perform at different levels but in general carry players are criticized a lot more than players in every other position. To the point where if you just read comments you'd think all carry players are terrible. I think that's generally because at a low level, it's easier to see the immediate game impact of a carry's mistakes than of other heroes, since their high farm priority means they have long death timers and are supposed to have high impact in a fight, so when they do something wrong it's much more noticeable to many people. It's not some psychological stigma against carries--it's just that with a base understanding of the game, it's easier to criticize higher position players because the negative impact of their mistakes is more visible. I agree. As I said earlier, a support overextends and dies all game and he won't be criticized as much as a carry who does once. Even if the support dying has a bigger impact in that particular game.
And of course there's the part that if you are behind the carry 'has to' play risky to catch up.
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On November 04 2013 02:58 teapoted wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2013 02:44 TheYango wrote:On November 04 2013 02:23 teapoted wrote:On November 04 2013 02:16 zezamer wrote:On November 04 2013 01:39 teapoted wrote:
As I've said multiple times before. All carry players are shit.
ZSMJ return disappointing. Move to support, now he's amazing. Fear carry medicore. Move to support, amazing. The only one that doesn't fit this is XBOCT, but he only plays support when he's lagging.
It just has to do with people not understanding carry play. I mean people praise Burning. But Burning really doesn't perform better than the carries who get flamed. It's because every death to someone you hate means he's shit. Burning dies it's like 'eh whatever'. So Zhou(getting flamed a lot) is performing on the same level as Burning(gettingpraised)? Like burning doesnt die in silly ways that much =) I think you missed the point. Obviously people perform at different levels but in general carry players are criticized a lot more than players in every other position. To the point where if you just read comments you'd think all carry players are terrible. I think that's generally because at a low level, it's easier to see the immediate game impact of a carry's mistakes than of other heroes, since their high farm priority means they have long death timers and are supposed to have high impact in a fight, so when they do something wrong it's much more noticeable to many people. It's not some psychological stigma against carries--it's just that with a base understanding of the game, it's easier to criticize higher position players because the negative impact of their mistakes is more visible. I agree. As I said earlier, a support overextends and dies all game and he won't be criticized as much as a carry who does once. Even if the support dying has a bigger impact in that particular game. And of course there's the part that if you are behind the carry 'has to' play risky to catch up.
I think that's a bit overstated, actually. That game with Maelk - you know the one - still gets brought up probably once every five games broadcasted.
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United Kingdom24425 Posts
On November 04 2013 03:06 LuckoftheIrish wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2013 02:58 teapoted wrote:On November 04 2013 02:44 TheYango wrote:On November 04 2013 02:23 teapoted wrote:On November 04 2013 02:16 zezamer wrote:On November 04 2013 01:39 teapoted wrote:
As I've said multiple times before. All carry players are shit.
ZSMJ return disappointing. Move to support, now he's amazing. Fear carry medicore. Move to support, amazing. The only one that doesn't fit this is XBOCT, but he only plays support when he's lagging.
It just has to do with people not understanding carry play. I mean people praise Burning. But Burning really doesn't perform better than the carries who get flamed. It's because every death to someone you hate means he's shit. Burning dies it's like 'eh whatever'. So Zhou(getting flamed a lot) is performing on the same level as Burning(gettingpraised)? Like burning doesnt die in silly ways that much =) I think you missed the point. Obviously people perform at different levels but in general carry players are criticized a lot more than players in every other position. To the point where if you just read comments you'd think all carry players are terrible. I think that's generally because at a low level, it's easier to see the immediate game impact of a carry's mistakes than of other heroes, since their high farm priority means they have long death timers and are supposed to have high impact in a fight, so when they do something wrong it's much more noticeable to many people. It's not some psychological stigma against carries--it's just that with a base understanding of the game, it's easier to criticize higher position players because the negative impact of their mistakes is more visible. I agree. As I said earlier, a support overextends and dies all game and he won't be criticized as much as a carry who does once. Even if the support dying has a bigger impact in that particular game. And of course there's the part that if you are behind the carry 'has to' play risky to catch up. I think that's a bit overstated, actually. That game with Maelk - you know the one - still gets brought up probably once every five games broadcasted. The carries on the best teams in the world are called shit on a daily basis.
The support on a b-tier team had a bad game that keeps on being brought up because it became a meme on joinDota.
These things are not related.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On November 04 2013 03:06 LuckoftheIrish wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2013 02:58 teapoted wrote:On November 04 2013 02:44 TheYango wrote:On November 04 2013 02:23 teapoted wrote:On November 04 2013 02:16 zezamer wrote:On November 04 2013 01:39 teapoted wrote:
As I've said multiple times before. All carry players are shit.
ZSMJ return disappointing. Move to support, now he's amazing. Fear carry medicore. Move to support, amazing. The only one that doesn't fit this is XBOCT, but he only plays support when he's lagging.
It just has to do with people not understanding carry play. I mean people praise Burning. But Burning really doesn't perform better than the carries who get flamed. It's because every death to someone you hate means he's shit. Burning dies it's like 'eh whatever'. So Zhou(getting flamed a lot) is performing on the same level as Burning(gettingpraised)? Like burning doesnt die in silly ways that much =) I think you missed the point. Obviously people perform at different levels but in general carry players are criticized a lot more than players in every other position. To the point where if you just read comments you'd think all carry players are terrible. I think that's generally because at a low level, it's easier to see the immediate game impact of a carry's mistakes than of other heroes, since their high farm priority means they have long death timers and are supposed to have high impact in a fight, so when they do something wrong it's much more noticeable to many people. It's not some psychological stigma against carries--it's just that with a base understanding of the game, it's easier to criticize higher position players because the negative impact of their mistakes is more visible. I agree. As I said earlier, a support overextends and dies all game and he won't be criticized as much as a carry who does once. Even if the support dying has a bigger impact in that particular game. And of course there's the part that if you are behind the carry 'has to' play risky to catch up. I think that's a bit overstated, actually. That game with Maelk - you know the one - still gets brought up probably once every five games broadcasted.
I just had to look up that game because ive never heard that said before
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Why is the one position Mirana so popular in competitive games now? Specifically why does she need to be in the one position?
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On November 04 2013 02:44 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2013 02:23 teapoted wrote:On November 04 2013 02:16 zezamer wrote:On November 04 2013 01:39 teapoted wrote:
As I've said multiple times before. All carry players are shit.
ZSMJ return disappointing. Move to support, now he's amazing. Fear carry medicore. Move to support, amazing. The only one that doesn't fit this is XBOCT, but he only plays support when he's lagging.
It just has to do with people not understanding carry play. I mean people praise Burning. But Burning really doesn't perform better than the carries who get flamed. It's because every death to someone you hate means he's shit. Burning dies it's like 'eh whatever'. So Zhou(getting flamed a lot) is performing on the same level as Burning(gettingpraised)? Like burning doesnt die in silly ways that much =) I think you missed the point. Obviously people perform at different levels but in general carry players are criticized a lot more than players in every other position. To the point where if you just read comments you'd think all carry players are terrible. I think that's generally because at a low level, it's easier to see the immediate game impact of a carry's mistakes than of other heroes, since their high farm priority means they have long death timers and are supposed to have high impact in a fight, so when they do something wrong it's much more noticeable to many people. It's not some psychological stigma against carries--it's just that with a base understanding of the game, it's easier to criticize higher position players because the negative impact of their mistakes is more visible.
In general bad carry play is way more apparent than bad support play, even down to simple things like missing CS (and boy do support players bitch when carries do this) vs bad ward placement, no dewarding or no attempt to look for ganks.
Plus if a carry has a bad score you blame them because they're supposed to have the best farm on the team. If a support plays likes shit and dies needlessly over and over, they just go "well of course I have a bad score, Im playing support after all"
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It's just the result of carries having a bunch of tangible stats that you can look at whereas supports presence in a game is much more intangible and is felt via creating space for the carry or otherwise denying gold or exp of the enemy, which there is no stat for.
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Also does anybody find Faceless Void completely useless this patch? His laning was enough of a weaknesses before the lane changes, and vs push strats he's even worse.
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I agree but Iv always thought void was useless.
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On November 04 2013 04:23 TheSubtleArt wrote:
Also does anybody find Faceless Void completely useless this patch? His laning was enough of a weaknesses before the lane changes, and vs push strats he's even worse.
He suffers from what he always have been, if you look in competetive he was rarely picked because he is to slow to get going and offers nothing in lane. There is just so many other carries you can pick instead of him
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
hype/drama
which will it be
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On November 04 2013 04:56 Grettin wrote:![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/cIVtV1u.jpg)
So soon? Fastest reshuffle to date (if it is one)?
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On November 04 2013 04:57 Kuroeeah wrote:So soon? Fastest reshuffle to date (if it is one)?
Virtus pro?
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Void was one of my favorite carries in HoN but I don't like him at all in DotA, he just feels so different. I think the biggest difference is the damage on his leap.
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United States47024 Posts
On November 04 2013 04:44 PassiveAce wrote:
I agree but Iv always thought void was useless.
He's a decent split-push/solo kill hero if you baby him really hard early game, which made him OK if you were pub stacking in 6.78.
His ability to 5-man is actually extremely overstated because until you yourself actually have damage to kill people in Chrono, it's often the case that Chrono is going to have less effectiveness than other large teamfight disables given the lack of damage and positioning limitations.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i39.tinypic.com/x5z403.jpg)
