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On October 03 2013 02:48 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2013 02:45 gaymon wrote:
People who say that sf "gets stomped" against OD havent actually played the game; yes he will have a hard time getting souls, yes he will not be able to spam razes BUT he will get souls (because its not possible for od to go 82/82) and after getting ~10-15 souls he will fare relatively decent.
If OD is positioning himself and playing incredibly aggressive in mid he is INSANELY susceptible to gangs, and when sf gets the kill OD wont be able to dominate him at all. Without this aggressive playstyle sf will get souls no matter what. Why does he have to position himself aggressively? He has creep control level 1, there's virtually no reason the creep wave should move anywhere from the front of OD's tower until SF is level 5+. It's SF that has to play dangerous to get anything unless his block was a LOT better than OD's. Show nested quote +On October 03 2013 02:48 Acritter wrote:
The point still being that Puck would fare better in ANY game than Invoker in an equal game.
Well, okay, I'm sure you could come up with a situation where Invoker would do better. But I think you get the general idea. The difference is more pronounced with OD though. If you consider some of the common mid matchups at the time of TI2 (e.g. vs. Rubick mid), you should get what I'm saying about why mid is more inhospitable to Invoker now than it was then.
Oh, it's almost certainly more inhospitable to Invoker. Didn't mean to say it wasn't. But it's inhospitable to every Int hero, meaning that only OD, the highest-impact Int heroes, Strength bottle-crowers, and OD counters get put in the lane. There are a few other heroes that get into the lane, sure, but that's most of what appears. If you're going to spend a ban on OD, you need to make sure you get a hell a lot out of your mid lane, and if your opponent's picked some high-impact lane controller, you gotta rise up to match them...
On October 03 2013 02:56 xsevR wrote:Go no raze build SF vs OD  I know it's reaaally bad (against a competent player who can deny souls from lvl 1), but seriously, try no raze max aura SF sometime. You accidentally 3-4 hit kill enemy mids sometimes while they try to juke a raze that isn't there. Then straight Treads+MoM+Shadowblade, or Phase/Yasha/HOTD. You can solo Roshan pretty early too.
And in the meantime you miss out on your flashfarm, while they should be able to notice that you have Presence leveled by the little red icon that pops up above their health bar.
It's really, REALLY not hard to outplay this.
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Raze has a lot more functions than flash farming. Time and time again, the great SF players know exactly how to abuse raze to its greatest strengths, though movement and positioning probably truly define the best SF players (well, besides last hit mechanics).
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I once tried SF vs OD. Was pretty stupid idea. I find Kunkka the best solo against OD, you can do ok or very well, depending of your opponent skill and contribute a lot more than with heroes like Viper/Drow (because, well it is a Viper/Drow) or LD/LS/Luna (because you are less farm dependable).
I never saw Clinkz vs OD. I think would be a little hard for Clinkz to try trade hits, but maybe with traquils + basilus trick he can survive. No?
edit:
well, level 1 clinkz has 40~ damage + 20 from arrows and OD has 62~ without stolen int. Maybe not.
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And in the meantime you miss out on your flashfarm, while they should be able to notice that you have Presence leveled by the little red icon that pops up above their health bar.
It's really, REALLY not hard to outplay this.
You can hold the points in aura if you want to surprise them or don't push the lane yet. You also get to farm heroes as soon as you have a single movespeed item (instead of flash farming creeps). Running around with haste (mom+shadow) and a solo rosh makes up for a lot of farm. Also, there's only so many creeps spawned and you kill them pretty damn fast. Jungle+Ancients is also easy because of early lifesteal.
I agree though, it's not hard to outplay it, especially in the lane. If you snowball it ends up really strong, as you right click for more than raze damage really early into the game. Bad pub build, but I only play pubs so idk.
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If you hit 2 razes its 600 magic damage (reduced 1/4) = 450 HP lost. Thats a lot of damage you need to make up from simple -armor.
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United States47024 Posts
On October 03 2013 02:56 gaymon wrote:
Yes this is how it should be, but as it turns out Dota is played by humans and this is not happening in the vast majority of games. In a real game OD will have to place himself in a dangerous position to assert his dominance.
And how often is it that in "the vast majority of games" the enemy team actually can and does capitalize on this?
Almost never do people pick the absolutely most powerful smoke gankers (mainly Chen/Enchan which have ridiculously low pub pick rates), and beyond those 2 it's still infrequent that pub supports even leave their lane to capitalize on an overextended mid hero. By the time you'd actually frequently queue into supports that do this effectively, you should just as frequently get mid players who know how to control their lane.
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On October 03 2013 03:09 Sn0_Man wrote:
If you hit 2 razes its 600 magic damage (reduced 1/4) = 450 HP lost. Thats a lot of damage you need to make up from simple -armor.
Not really, it takes a while casting raze, if you can do 2-3 autos in that time you're doing more dmg at lvl 8 without a damage item.
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more duels needed less talk
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going aura vs OD is fucking retarded. It makes it even easier for him to deny
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Properly cast razes are faster than auto attacks until you get +150% attack speed. Some of that will come from treads and Base int but by and large you get less than 1 attack per raze.
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United States47024 Posts
On October 03 2013 03:16 Sn0_Man wrote:
Properly cast razes are faster than auto attacks until you get +150% attack speed. Some of that will come from treads and Base int but by and large you get less than 1 attack per raze.
Is this including the fact that you can cancel autoattack backswing into Raze, and Raze backswing into an autoattack, but can't cancel an autoattack into another autoattack?
EDIT: I assume that's what you meant by "properly cast".
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I was purely treating raze as backswing-free since thats what "properly cast" means to me. As in, the cost of a raze is .67s, which is less than the cost of an auto (going razeless) until almost exactly 150% IAS.
Yes, raze-auto-raze-auto is almost always ideal but we were comparing to razeless.
Huh so it didn't occur to me until you are pointing this out that raze taking up auto-backswing time made them EVEN MORE EFFICIENT. Well thats kinda best-case scenario where the idiot is in auto range AND is getting hit by multiple razes though.
So until you have like 65 IAS (easy to get) raze during auto backswing is LITERALLY free in DPS calculations, although not really since you have to stand still.
PS yango the wiki says SF has .5 attack animation and .54 backswing. Does that mean that backswing cancelling is actually faster (in terms of attacks per second) than just right clicking for SF? because I thought it didn't matter on any hero (apart from the movement time you can get) until now.
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On October 03 2013 03:09 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2013 02:56 gaymon wrote:
Yes this is how it should be, but as it turns out Dota is played by humans and this is not happening in the vast majority of games. In a real game OD will have to place himself in a dangerous position to assert his dominance. And how often is it that in "the vast majority of games" the enemy team actually can and does capitalize on this? Almost never do people pick the absolutely most powerful smoke gankers (mainly Chen/Enchan which have ridiculously low pub pick rates), and beyond those 2 it's still infrequent that pub supports even leave their lane to capitalize on an overextended mid hero. By the time you'd actually frequently queue into supports that do this effectively, you should just as frequently get mid players who know how to control their lane.
I know that anecdotal evidence is usually not a good argument, but considering that we are talking about dota it is propably a viable proof for my thesis. Feel free to watch any of those replays (sf vs. od mid, i only picked games of teams which are relatively even in skill)
http://www.datdota.com/match.php?q=299496701&p=stats
http://www.datdota.com/match.php?q=263385734&p=stats
http://www.datdota.com/match.php?q=262584768&p=stats
http://www.datdota.com/match.php?q=262559167&p=stats
http://www.datdota.com/match.php?q=233402396&p=stats
turns out that stuff like that happens even at the highest level of play
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How do you even farm if you didn't level raze? I mean it's bad enough that you already lost mid with that shitty build.
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Well with all the creeps having -6 armor or w/e and I'm assuming ur supposed to have 36 souls (from who knows where) you would jungle pretty fast with just right clicks. Its terrible but you'd still farm faster than most heroes who disappeared into the jungle simply by dint of your massive right-clicks.
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The Frog should give OD a -5 to his armor, no reason for him to have such a high armor, he is all about spells and int and shit.
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United States47024 Posts
On October 03 2013 03:25 gaymon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2013 03:09 TheYango wrote:On October 03 2013 02:56 gaymon wrote:
Yes this is how it should be, but as it turns out Dota is played by humans and this is not happening in the vast majority of games. In a real game OD will have to place himself in a dangerous position to assert his dominance. And how often is it that in "the vast majority of games" the enemy team actually can and does capitalize on this? Almost never do people pick the absolutely most powerful smoke gankers (mainly Chen/Enchan which have ridiculously low pub pick rates), and beyond those 2 it's still infrequent that pub supports even leave their lane to capitalize on an overextended mid hero. By the time you'd actually frequently queue into supports that do this effectively, you should just as frequently get mid players who know how to control their lane. I know that anecdotal evidence is usually not a good argument, but considering that we are talking about dota it is propably a viable proof for my thesis. Feel free to watch any of those replays (sf vs. od mid, i only picked games of teams which are relatively even in skill) http://www.datdota.com/match.php?q=299496701&p=statshttp://www.datdota.com/match.php?q=263385734&p=statshttp://www.datdota.com/match.php?q=262584768&p=statshttp://www.datdota.com/match.php?q=262559167&p=statshttp://www.datdota.com/match.php?q=233402396&p=statsturns out that stuff like that happens even at the highest level of play
I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but to me, "good supports + boneheaded mid player" happens just as often as "boneheaded supports + good mid player". I don't think it's all that uncommon for it to go either way, and I don't think *fundamentally* the matchup is good.
Plus the original question was what happens in that matchup with no help. Obviously it's a matchup that banks very heavily on which side gets help. In pro games, even pooled regen (or the equivalent, random gold, in pubs) changes any matchup a LOT.
On October 03 2013 03:24 Sn0_Man wrote:
PS yango the wiki says SF has .5 attack animation and .54 backswing. Does that mean that backswing cancelling is actually faster (in terms of attacks per second) than just right clicking for SF? because I thought it didn't matter on any hero (apart from the movement time you can get) until now.
0.5+0.54 is the animation time, which then gets adjusted to his actual attack speed.
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On October 03 2013 03:33 Sn0_Man wrote:
Well with all the creeps having -6 armor or w/e and I'm assuming ur supposed to have 36 souls (from who knows where) you would jungle pretty fast with just right clicks. Its terrible but you'd still farm faster than most heroes who disappeared into the jungle simply by dint of your massive right-clicks.
You can't clear jungle stacks. You can't push out the mid creep wave to go rune/jungle. The only thing you can do is walk around with 700 hp and right click slightly harder than some mids and you have 0 killing potential.
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Fun fact related to SF:
When you are breaking out lothar's invisible with SF's ulti, enemy can actually see you before the ulti hits him. It has something to do with you are revealed 0.2-0.5s earlier (than dota1) when you are breaking out of lothar's invisible time, where spells like clock's ministun can actually disrupt any spell casted out from invisible (this has been disturbing me for a long long time now and i finally found out why last week).
Conclusion:
Yet another stealth nerf to a dota2 version of the hero. Volvo disband.
+ Show Spoiler +(where in dota1 you can requiem out of lothar and immediately Z, super fun to 1 combo kill a hero like Storm, now in dota2 storm will have a split second to zap away)
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United States47024 Posts
A corollary to that bug is also that you lose your unit-walking before the ult goes off. In DotA 1, a Lothar's ulti can hit someone with EVERY line of damage, whereas in DotA 2, you can only get about half at most.
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EPT
