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On October 03 2013 02:31 TheYango wrote:
Yes, but being able to get 1-2 creeps a wave is still very different from letting him get 4 denies every wave, particularly when the hero/heroes in question are ranged. "At a certain point it just stops mattering how badly you lose your lane", but the difference between, say, Puck vs. OD and Invoker vs. OD isn't there yet.
Both of them will be miles behind where they should be at that point and be incapable of creating space for their team. In both cases you'll need to rely on winning your sidelanes significantly in order to get back into the game. Invoker's weakness to OD isn't any more than his weakness to losing a lane, period. If another hero was dominating him as hard as OD commonly would, it would result in him dying multiple times instead of just suffering infinite denies. It just happens that OD wins mid harder than any other hero.
Really, your team's just getting set up to lose the game either way.
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All I see is another tired "OD mid" argument.
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SF can't get lasthits early because he's like 15-20 base damage behind, and he can't spam waves with raze later because thats when OD really finishes draining his mana.
That lane matchup's a disaster.
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United States47024 Posts
On October 03 2013 02:37 Comeh wrote:
I think one of the more popular mids that I think is relatively even given no ganks is OD vs SF.
An interesting matchup that I'd be interested to hear some experts opinions over.
SF gets stomped.
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On October 03 2013 02:40 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2013 02:37 Comeh wrote:
I think one of the more popular mids that I think is relatively even given no ganks is OD vs SF.
An interesting matchup that I'd be interested to hear some experts opinions over. SF gets stomped.
Odd, i've seen it go okay a few time in progames.
*shrug*
I mean, i know why, but still I've seen it go pretty well.
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On October 03 2013 02:40 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2013 02:37 Comeh wrote:
I think one of the more popular mids that I think is relatively even given no ganks is OD vs SF.
An interesting matchup that I'd be interested to hear some experts opinions over. SF gets stomped.
RTZ said SF vs OD was actually a good match up!....Until he rescind his statement a couple of days later.
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United States47024 Posts
On October 03 2013 02:38 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2013 02:31 TheYango wrote:
Yes, but being able to get 1-2 creeps a wave is still very different from letting him get 4 denies every wave, particularly when the hero/heroes in question are ranged. "At a certain point it just stops mattering how badly you lose your lane", but the difference between, say, Puck vs. OD and Invoker vs. OD isn't there yet. Both of them will be miles behind where they should be at that point and be incapable of creating space for their team. In both cases you'll need to rely on winning your sidelanes significantly in order to get back into the game. Invoker's weakness to OD isn't any more than his weakness to losing a lane, period. If another hero was dominating him as hard as OD commonly would, it would result in him dying multiple times instead of just suffering infinite denies. It just happens that OD wins mid harder than any other hero. Really, your team's just getting set up to lose the game either way.
???
A Puck that has Boots+Bottle and level 6 at 6 minutes can still break open the game with a successful gank.
To say there's no difference between a Boots+Bottle+level 6 Puck and a Boots+level 4/5 Invoker is ridiculous.
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On October 03 2013 02:37 Comeh wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2013 02:35 Shaella wrote:
Honestly, I think you can play some high-activity ganker mids like QoP against OD, especially if you're on radiant because you have the smallcamp then too I think one of the more popular mids that I think is relatively even given no ganks is OD vs SF. An interesting matchup that I'd be interested to hear some experts opinions over.
I wouldn't call it even with no ganks, just because OD something like 20 more level 1 damage than SF. SF definitely needs space cleared for the first few levels, until he can build up his soul count. Once that space has been cleared, though, I'd agree that it's relatively even. OD's Astral-deny is partially handled by SF's ability to nuke down waves and farm the jungle.
I'd have to see it in action, though.
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On October 03 2013 02:42 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2013 02:37 Comeh wrote:On October 03 2013 02:35 Shaella wrote:
Honestly, I think you can play some high-activity ganker mids like QoP against OD, especially if you're on radiant because you have the smallcamp then too I think one of the more popular mids that I think is relatively even given no ganks is OD vs SF. An interesting matchup that I'd be interested to hear some experts opinions over. I wouldn't call it even with no ganks, just because OD something like 20 more level 1 damage than SF. SF definitely needs space cleared for the first few levels, until he can build up his soul count. Once that space has been cleared, though, I'd agree that it's relatively even. OD's Astral-deny is partially handled by SF's ability to nuke down waves and farm the jungle. I'd have to see it in action, though.
Well, you're right. A well played OD should dominate him. I guess progames where I've seen it go well for SF is because the OD maybe didn't play ideally.
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United States47024 Posts
On October 03 2013 02:43 Comeh wrote:
Well, you're right. A well played OD should dominate him. I guess progames where I've seen it go well for SF is because the OD maybe didn't play ideally.
You have to be sure that there really was *no* help.
Even pooled regen makes many of these matchups very different. And pooled regen is very common these days for many of these matchups. It's very infrequent that people will send SF mid without pooling him in pro games, but this isn't an expectation you can have in pubs.
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On October 03 2013 02:41 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2013 02:38 Acritter wrote:On October 03 2013 02:31 TheYango wrote:
Yes, but being able to get 1-2 creeps a wave is still very different from letting him get 4 denies every wave, particularly when the hero/heroes in question are ranged. "At a certain point it just stops mattering how badly you lose your lane", but the difference between, say, Puck vs. OD and Invoker vs. OD isn't there yet. Both of them will be miles behind where they should be at that point and be incapable of creating space for their team. In both cases you'll need to rely on winning your sidelanes significantly in order to get back into the game. Invoker's weakness to OD isn't any more than his weakness to losing a lane, period. If another hero was dominating him as hard as OD commonly would, it would result in him dying multiple times instead of just suffering infinite denies. It just happens that OD wins mid harder than any other hero. Really, your team's just getting set up to lose the game either way. ??? A Puck that has Boots+Bottle and level 6 at 6 minutes can still break open the game with a successful gank. To say there's no difference between a Boots+Bottle+level 6 Puck and a Boots+level 4/5 Invoker is ridiculous.
I'm not saying there's no difference. I'm saying that you're still probably going to lose the game either way. It's also the case that Puck would have far higher impact with the enemy team just abandoning mid than with Invoker in the same freefarming situation, so your point's kind of moot.
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People who say that sf "gets stomped" against OD havent actually played the game; yes he will have a hard time getting souls, yes he will not be able to spam razes BUT he will get souls (because its not possible for od to go 82/82) and after getting ~10-15 souls he will fare relatively decent.
If OD is positioning himself and playing incredibly aggressive in mid he is INSANELY susceptible to gangs, and when sf gets the kill OD wont be able to dominate him at all. Without this aggressive playstyle sf will get souls no matter what.
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United States47024 Posts
On October 03 2013 02:44 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2013 02:41 TheYango wrote:On October 03 2013 02:38 Acritter wrote:On October 03 2013 02:31 TheYango wrote:
Yes, but being able to get 1-2 creeps a wave is still very different from letting him get 4 denies every wave, particularly when the hero/heroes in question are ranged. "At a certain point it just stops mattering how badly you lose your lane", but the difference between, say, Puck vs. OD and Invoker vs. OD isn't there yet. Both of them will be miles behind where they should be at that point and be incapable of creating space for their team. In both cases you'll need to rely on winning your sidelanes significantly in order to get back into the game. Invoker's weakness to OD isn't any more than his weakness to losing a lane, period. If another hero was dominating him as hard as OD commonly would, it would result in him dying multiple times instead of just suffering infinite denies. It just happens that OD wins mid harder than any other hero. Really, your team's just getting set up to lose the game either way. ??? A Puck that has Boots+Bottle and level 6 at 6 minutes can still break open the game with a successful gank. To say there's no difference between a Boots+Bottle+level 6 Puck and a Boots+level 4/5 Invoker is ridiculous. I'm not saying there's no difference. I'm saying that you're still probably going to lose the game either way. It's also the case that Puck would have far higher impact with the enemy team just abandoning mid than with Invoker in the same freefarming situation, so your point's kind of moot.
But Puck has that option. Invoker's a far weaker sidelane ganker that will do less to open up the game.
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On October 03 2013 02:45 gaymon wrote:
People who say that sf "gets stomped" against OD havent actually played the game; yes he will have a hard time getting souls, yes he will not be able to spam razes BUT he will get souls (because its not possible for od to go 82/82) and after getting ~10-15 souls he will fare relatively decent.
If OD is positioning himself and playing incredibly aggressive in mid he is INSANELY susceptible to gangs, and when sf gets the kill OD wont be able to dominate him at all. Without this aggressive playstyle sf will get souls no matter what.
take a guess of which one of the two is more susceptible to ganks rofl.
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On October 03 2013 02:45 gaymon wrote:
People who say that sf "gets stomped" against OD havent actually played the game; yes he will have a hard time getting souls, yes he will not be able to spam razes BUT he will get souls (because its not possible for od to go 82/82) and after getting ~10-15 souls he will fare relatively decent.
If OD is positioning himself and playing incredibly aggressive in mid he is INSANELY susceptible to gangs, and when sf gets the kill OD wont be able to dominate him at all. Without this aggressive playstyle sf will get souls no matter what.
You miss the point that SF will require support babysit for this to work, and that he will STILL be set back past where he ought to be. Without support, he will be heavily set back. SF is a pretty snowball-oriented hero. He can make up for some mistakes with Raze flashfarming, but it won't turn a painful game into a good one, just into a less painful one.
On October 03 2013 02:45 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2013 02:44 Acritter wrote:On October 03 2013 02:41 TheYango wrote:On October 03 2013 02:38 Acritter wrote:On October 03 2013 02:31 TheYango wrote:
Yes, but being able to get 1-2 creeps a wave is still very different from letting him get 4 denies every wave, particularly when the hero/heroes in question are ranged. "At a certain point it just stops mattering how badly you lose your lane", but the difference between, say, Puck vs. OD and Invoker vs. OD isn't there yet. Both of them will be miles behind where they should be at that point and be incapable of creating space for their team. In both cases you'll need to rely on winning your sidelanes significantly in order to get back into the game. Invoker's weakness to OD isn't any more than his weakness to losing a lane, period. If another hero was dominating him as hard as OD commonly would, it would result in him dying multiple times instead of just suffering infinite denies. It just happens that OD wins mid harder than any other hero. Really, your team's just getting set up to lose the game either way. ??? A Puck that has Boots+Bottle and level 6 at 6 minutes can still break open the game with a successful gank. To say there's no difference between a Boots+Bottle+level 6 Puck and a Boots+level 4/5 Invoker is ridiculous. I'm not saying there's no difference. I'm saying that you're still probably going to lose the game either way. It's also the case that Puck would have far higher impact with the enemy team just abandoning mid than with Invoker in the same freefarming situation, so your point's kind of moot. But Puck has that option. Invoker's a far weaker sidelane ganker that will do less to open up the game.
The point still being that Puck would fare better in ANY game than Invoker in an equal game.
Well, okay, I'm sure you could come up with a situation where Invoker would do better. But I think you get the general idea.
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United States47024 Posts
On October 03 2013 02:45 gaymon wrote:
People who say that sf "gets stomped" against OD havent actually played the game; yes he will have a hard time getting souls, yes he will not be able to spam razes BUT he will get souls (because its not possible for od to go 82/82) and after getting ~10-15 souls he will fare relatively decent.
If OD is positioning himself and playing incredibly aggressive in mid he is INSANELY susceptible to gangs, and when sf gets the kill OD wont be able to dominate him at all. Without this aggressive playstyle sf will get souls no matter what.
Why does he have to position himself aggressively? He has creep control level 1, there's virtually no reason the creep wave should move anywhere from the front of OD's tower until SF is level 5+.
It's SF that has to play dangerous to get anything unless his block was a LOT better than OD's.
On October 03 2013 02:48 Acritter wrote:
The point still being that Puck would fare better in ANY game than Invoker in an equal game.
Well, okay, I'm sure you could come up with a situation where Invoker would do better. But I think you get the general idea.
The difference is more pronounced with OD though. If you consider some of the common mid matchups at the time of TI2 (e.g. vs. Rubick mid), you should get what I'm saying about why mid is more inhospitable to Invoker now than it was then.
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On October 03 2013 02:45 gaymon wrote:
People who say that sf "gets stomped" against OD havent actually played the game; yes he will have a hard time getting souls, yes he will not be able to spam razes BUT he will get souls (because its not possible for od to go 82/82) and after getting ~10-15 souls he will fare relatively decent.
If OD is positioning himself and playing incredibly aggressive in mid he is INSANELY susceptible to gangs, and when sf gets the kill OD wont be able to dominate him at all. Without this aggressive playstyle sf will get souls no matter what.
Well, for one thing OD might be the single hero most capable of going 82/82 in all of dota. For another that hero has massive base armor and HP, he's really not that gankable (plus he can dodge stuns with astral etc). For another OD has absolutely no issues controlling the lane positioning (if he is good) and should be able to be in a safe location for most of the matchup (this part is highly skill dependant).
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storm is another one of those ! Well not 82 denies..
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Go no raze build SF vs OD 
I know it's reaaally bad (against a competent player who can deny souls from lvl 1), but seriously, try no raze max aura SF sometime. You accidentally 3-4 hit kill enemy mids sometimes while they try to juke a raze that isn't there. Then straight Treads+MoM+Shadowblade, or Phase/Yasha/HOTD. You can solo Roshan pretty early too.
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On October 03 2013 02:48 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2013 02:45 gaymon wrote:
People who say that sf "gets stomped" against OD havent actually played the game; yes he will have a hard time getting souls, yes he will not be able to spam razes BUT he will get souls (because its not possible for od to go 82/82) and after getting ~10-15 souls he will fare relatively decent.
If OD is positioning himself and playing incredibly aggressive in mid he is INSANELY susceptible to gangs, and when sf gets the kill OD wont be able to dominate him at all. Without this aggressive playstyle sf will get souls no matter what. Why does he have to position himself aggressively? He has creep control level 1, there's virtually no reason the creep wave should move anywhere from the front of OD's tower until SF is level 5+. It's SF that has to play dangerous to get anything unless his block was a LOT better than OD's.
I really have to question the way you are arguing, are we talking about real games or a theoretical vaccuum without friction ?
Yes this is how it should be, but as it turns out Dota is played by humans and this is not happening in the vast majority of games. In a real game OD will have to place himself in a dangerous position to assert his dominance.
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EPT
