EPTThere's a legitimate case for permanent 522 MS being worth not having that 14 Int. Particularly since its way easier for a hero with 280 base MS to get 14 Int than it is for them to get 522 MS from items.
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
There's a legitimate case for permanent 522 MS being worth not having that 14 Int. Particularly since its way easier for a hero with 280 base MS to get 14 Int than it is for them to get 522 MS from items. | ||
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Comeh
United States18919 Posts
On October 03 2013 02:09 TheYango wrote: One thing that I think is worth pointing out is that there are factors that work against Invoker more than just his own balance. He doesn't fit the way the game is played right now. He is very much a dedicated teamfight hero, and was strong in 6.74 because that was a version that, at least at the time, people thought was a dedicated AoE teamfight version (evidenced by the high priority on Naga/Tide/DS other AoE teamfighting heroes). 6.75 was honestly not good for him with the various face-rush strategies that emerged, and even this version is not so great given that there are many up-front teamfighters who are not that "good" in this version, as it favors map control heroes like Wisp, Bat, and Furion. Agreed, this is why its so important for invoker to be one of the strongest 1v1ers in order to stay relevant in the meta. Because he's a mediocre ganker (he can averagely assist a mid gank, but otherwise not much), doesn't push mid for a fast tower easily, is mediocre in early fights, and is relatively easy to gank and is generally just immobile in mid for a long time, its extremely important that he dominates 1v1 mid to make up for these factors (sorta/kinda loosely how OD works, although we know OD dominates Invoker.) I just dont see this hero being relevant until he reaches the point where he can dominate 1v1. | ||
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Acritter
Syria7637 Posts
I don't think it's too unlikely that we could see Invoker be run as a more mixed hero than pure AOE teamfight. Quas Exort does have a lot of potential in splitpush/gank/global presence, although most of it does depend on how Icefrog decides to take the spells. It could be possible that his next evolution could be early gank/global, late teamfight. | ||
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BurningSera
Ireland19621 Posts
On October 02 2013 20:37 negon wrote: I play in the same bracket as you, since we've met repeatedly in MM  .You're making rather baseless assumptions, I don't really blame anyone (however I don't really feel the need to glorify proper support players either), I am just describing a certain type of player which DOES exist. However you are right, these are more common in lower level Dota, now that I think about it most of them I've played with were just people I was stacking with, not people with higher MMR. lol i was guessing that you must be some guy from US (or maybe SEA) since we really dont often get that kind of 'ward bitch' over here T_T. Even when i played alot of support back then I was the one who got mad at the team being too passive (team prefers to kill creeps when they could kill/farm the oppo heroes). And ya in the case of IH or stack with friends it is highly probable to get that kind of 'semi-afk' support player, been there done that too but then somehow one of us will always make him useful/keep him busy by telling him what to do. Strange that I rarely use my real id (maybe like 15% out of all my games), must be that cute cat pic of mine huh! | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
Invoker has neither of these options. It's far more hopeless than a large number of other Int heroes. | ||
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BurningSera
Ireland19621 Posts
Or did he?? I have no memory of dendivoker at ti3 at all, compare that to those glorious moments of dendivoker in TI2. | ||
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
(I'll just go quietly uninstall now). | ||
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Acritter
Syria7637 Posts
On October 03 2013 02:12 TheYango wrote: If you're actually looking purely at the orbs' stats/passive benefits, Wex is arguably the best orb because of how much value movement speed has as a stat. There's a legitimate case for permanent 522 MS being worth not having that 14 Int. Particularly since its way easier for a hero with 280 base MS to get 14 Int than it is for them to get 522 MS from items. You do bring up a fair point, and my counterpoint would be in scaling. Namely, the intelligence bonus matters a lot at early levels, while the movespeed doesn't so much. So theoretically (assuming perfectly balanced spells), Exort Wex would likely be the strongest combination, as the Exort will ramp up your laning and early presence dramatically while the Wex would give you high mobility going into the midgame. Of course, reality begs to differ, but hey. | ||
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Grettin
42416 Posts
^_^ | ||
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Acritter
Syria7637 Posts
On October 03 2013 02:17 TheYango wrote: There are a quite a number of Int heroes that have powerful level 1/2 that they can abuse to pressure OD. Many of the remainder can at least get some farm via Bottle-crow even if they lose the lane overall. Invoker has neither of these options. It's far more hopeless than a large number of other Int heroes. As s4 so gladly demonstrated, even Magnus, the ultimate bottle-crow hero, loses miserably to OD mid. OD demolishes anyone who relies on mana or intelligence-based damage to maintain lane position. The only int hero I can think of who might be able to bottle-crow effectively is Windrunner, if she just sits behind tower and spams Powershot. Lich would also do decently in lane just because he's Lich. | ||
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BurningSera
Ireland19621 Posts
On October 03 2013 02:19 Sn0_Man wrote: W/E invoker! Bottle for regen, Meteor creep waves for rune control, Alacrity to lasthit! (I'll just go quietly uninstall now). I never play invo unless I randomed him....then I go midas, maelstrom, buriza. Screw memorizing all the invoke spells :DDD | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On October 03 2013 02:25 Acritter wrote: As s4 so gladly demonstrated, even Magnus, the ultimate bottle-crow hero, loses miserably to OD mid. OD demolishes anyone who relies on mana or intelligence-based damage to maintain lane position. The only int hero I can think of who might be able to bottle-crow effectively is Windrunner, if she just sits behind tower and spams Powershot. Lich would also do decently in lane just because he's Lich. Of course he loses lane, but getting 1-2 creeps a wave is lightyears ahead of OD 4/4ing every creep wave against a RANGED hero (denied creeps return a lot less XP value to ranged heroes). Even if both heroes sit at the edge of XP range, never touch the creeps, and leech XP, Invoker comes out worse off simply because he's ranged. | ||
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Comeh
United States18919 Posts
On October 03 2013 02:25 Acritter wrote: As s4 so gladly demonstrated, even Magnus, the ultimate bottle-crow hero, loses miserably to OD mid. OD demolishes anyone who relies on mana or intelligence-based damage to maintain lane position. The only int hero I can think of who might be able to bottle-crow effectively is Windrunner, if she just sits behind tower and spams Powershot. Lich would also do decently in lane just because he's Lich. I'm not sure why Magnus is brought up here. Bottle crow isn't something that deals with OD well in any way. Windrunner gets destroyed by OD. Yango is specifically talking about heroes that can damage / harass OD a lot in the first 2 levels, before Astral hits a critical point where both Mana and Damage become nothing you can deal with. I'm guessing he means Skywrath getting a solo kill around level 3 if OD really misplays (Doubt it, but it could help with a gank), but not too sure who he has in mind that is an int hero. | ||
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Acritter
Syria7637 Posts
On October 03 2013 02:22 Grettin wrote: http://www.teamliquidpro.com/news/2013/10/02/liquiddota-to-play-in-korea ^_^ This sounds like good fun. Glad they're not going for too long, because I'm pretty sure the Korean level is not the best for long-term practice, but a quick tournament should be enjoyable for players and spectators both. Did Bulba just say that he's friends with the months of February and March? Nazgul, I think it's time to look into a psychiatrist... | ||
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Acritter
Syria7637 Posts
On October 03 2013 02:28 Comeh wrote: I'm not sure why Magnus is brought up here. Bottle crow isn't something that deals with OD well in any way. Windrunner gets destroyed by OD. Yango is specifically talking about heroes that can damage / harass OD a lot in the first 2 levels, before Astral hits a critical point where both Mana and Damage become nothing you can deal with. I'm guessing he means Skywrath getting a solo kill around level 3 if OD really misplays, but not too sure who he has in mind that is an int hero. Because Yango decided to bring up bottle-crowing. If you want to talk bottle-crowing, then all you need to do is look at how badly even Magnus loses lane. Invoker may well be the worst, but that hardly matters when every Intelligence hero is just terrible. At a certain point it just stops mattering how badly you lose your lane. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
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Comeh
United States18919 Posts
On October 03 2013 02:30 Acritter wrote: Because Yango decided to bring up bottle-crowing. If you want to talk bottle-crowing, then all you need to do is look at how badly even Magnus loses lane. Invoker may well be the worst, but that hardly matters when every Intelligence hero is just terrible. At a certain point it just stops mattering how badly you lose your lane. Oh, he's talking about getting some farm (IE arcanes with Magnus), not winning the lane. You literally just sit in XP range and spam a few last hits. It's a trade you can choose to make when playing against an OD. | ||
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Shaella
United States14828 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
A level difference at 6 minutes is enormous. Even a ranged hero that's bottle-crowing that can guarantee ~3 creeps a minute can actually still get reasonably close to level 6 in 6 minutes at least. | ||
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Comeh
United States18919 Posts
On October 03 2013 02:35 Shaella wrote: Honestly, I think you can play some high-activity ganker mids like QoP against OD, especially if you're on radiant because you have the smallcamp then too I think one of the more popular mids that I think is relatively even given no ganks is OD vs SF. An interesting matchup that I'd be interested to hear some experts opinions over. | ||
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