General Discussion - Page 4039

On October 02 2013 15:30 FuzzyJAM wrote:

Doesn't that sum up anyone who wants to ever play support?

:D

On October 02 2013 19:46 negon wrote:

Not sure if you're being sarcastic, but I am not saying you shouldn't be getting wards.. just that there are tons of bad players playing support exclusively, thinking their only obligation is to place wards and maybe stackpull, while dying all the time, leaving the carry alone at worst times, buying wards/dusts/smokes when they have no need for them and yet thinking they're contributing so much. There's more to playing support than placing wards, sometimes you should prioritise other things.. for yourself and for the team too.. and a surprising number of players seem unable to understand that. And they're oh so sure they're doing nothing wrong.

On October 02 2013 20:08 BurningSera wrote:


where do you find these 'tons of bad players playing support exclusively'? sound like an amazing deal to me to trade with all those 'russian players' (we all know what i mean here), as soon as they actually buy visions and use them, and they are not feeding hardcore then i'd be thanking dota god every game.

You sound like someone who blames the support when you lose rather than think of how would you do better as a carry/mid/hardlaner. Out of thousands of games that i have played since November 2011, I can't remember a single game that it was the fault of that kind of support player that you described. Because in reality, people who are willing to play a proper #5 is so damn rare and you are complaining of not having 'good support' lol.

There are differences between
1) bad/low skill player (who sucks at whatever role/hero they play, in this case it is simply because your mmr is not there yet),
2) people prefer to play greedy/passive or aggressive support (high/low skill trolls or tryhards are all here you can't tell),
3) the skilled players who lack of understanding of certain role (but if you gave him items/farm he would still own with the hero) which are usually the 'bad support' in pub, they refuse to give the carry the exp/gold like leeching your exp on lane or lose the lane 2v1 or 3v1, needless to say they never bother to buy ward/cour/smoke etc.

On October 02 2013 20:08 BurningSera wrote:
There are differences between
1) bad/low skill player (who sucks at whatever role/hero they play, in this case it is simply because your mmr is not there yet),
2) people prefer to play greedy/passive or aggressive support (high/low skill trolls or tryhards are all here you can't tell),
3) the skilled players who lack of understanding of certain role (but if you gave him items/farm he would still own with the hero) which are usually the 'bad support' in pub, they refuse to give the carry the exp/gold like leeching your exp on lane or lose the lane 2v1 or 3v1, needless to say they never bother to buy ward/cour/smoke etc.

On October 02 2013 16:29 TheYango wrote:

It's not the same.

A support that does not buy courier/wards/etc. is an inconvenience, but it is one that can be rectified by the other players on the team. If our support refuses to buy these things, I, as a different player, have the option to get those things. In fact, it's considered common courtesy in Chinese pubs for the player who wants to take mid to buy the courier (and it's considered quite discourteous for someone who didn't buy the courier to try and hog mid from someone who did). Likewise, it's frequent that the mid player is the one to buy the wards.

A carry player that does as I described is something that the rest of the team cannot fix. There is no choice that any of the other 4 players in the game can make that suddenly makes a Midas+BF Anti-Mage have teamfighting ability. As such, the carry player in this situation essentially holds the game hostage against the other 4 players on his team, and unlike the case of the "selfish" support, there is nothing they can do about it.

On October 02 2013 21:18 Kishin2 wrote:
Troll is in the game now. Where are the win one fight get rax super push lineups? Disappointing.

On October 02 2013 21:08 FuzzyJAM wrote:


A farmer that decides to build team fight items to be relevant early game forces his team to go for early game fights/push just as much as a farmer that builds for more late game is forcing the opposite. He's holding his teammates at hostage just as much.

Just because YOU like to play "Russian Dota" doesn't mean it's the "correct" way to play pubs or the proper and unselfish way.

On October 02 2013 21:55 Acritter wrote:

A Storm who goes for a jungle build has just sacrificed his lane and set his team up for failure unless they play pussydota and protect him. A Morph who goes for level 1 max agi is demanding that his team babysit him constantly and denying his supports their pulls unless they want him to die again and again.

A Spec who goes Phase+Drums can still build into a Heart eventually, and an Alchemist who starts out with Shadow Blade can still get AC and Abyssal.

Do you see the fundamental difference here? EE's builds deny his team options, while early fight builds on carries just open up more options. They're NOT holding their teammates hostage, because what they're doing is allowing for the possibility of early fighting while not crippling the lategame. Something that would justify your position is using a snowball-oriented hero as the safelane carry, which does limit your team's options to fighting early and often, but the thing is, that's not what Yango said.

Early teamfight doesn't inherently sacrifice lategame potential in a goddamn pub. If anything, it contributes a lot to lategame potential, because it opens up a lot of map space and lets your team focus on the enemy carry more. Demanding farming roles can sacrifice a lot of early game potential, though, and demanding EE-style farming roles, which sacrifice lanes completely and require vast amounts of babysitting from his teammates, is clearly a case of holding the game hostage.

On October 02 2013 21:55 Acritter wrote:

A Storm who goes for a jungle build has just sacrificed his lane and set his team up for failure unless they play pussydota and protect him. A Morph who goes for level 1 max agi is demanding that his team babysit him constantly and denying his supports their pulls unless they want him to die again and again.

A Spec who goes Phase+Drums can still build into a Heart eventually, and an Alchemist who starts out with Shadow Blade can still get AC and Abyssal.

Do you see the fundamental difference here? EE's builds deny his team options, while early fight builds on carries just open up more options. They're NOT holding their teammates hostage, because what they're doing is allowing for the possibility of early fighting while not crippling the lategame. Something that would justify your position is using a snowball-oriented hero as the safelane carry, which does limit your team's options to fighting early and often, but the thing is, that's not what Yango said.

Early teamfight doesn't inherently sacrifice lategame potential in a goddamn pub. If anything, it contributes a lot to lategame potential, because it opens up a lot of map space and lets your team focus on the enemy carry more. Demanding farming roles can sacrifice a lot of early game potential, though, and demanding EE-style farming roles, which sacrifice lanes completely and require vast amounts of babysitting from his teammates, is clearly a case of holding the game hostage.

On October 02 2013 22:02 Belisarius wrote:


There's two different things here, though. I think there's a serious difference between EE's soulring jungle bottlecrow storm and a bfury antimage.

I don't think too many people are seriously arguing in favour of jungle storm, but a lot of people - myself included - would disagree with Yango's assertion that a farming antimage has no place in pubs.

On October 02 2013 22:11 -Celestial- wrote:
Glancing through the past few pages...Acritter beat me to it there.

But to add an SC2 analogy:
A late game build is like fast expanding into a fast third with minimal defence. It means you have zero options for aggression early on and you can flat out die if it goes wrong. But it provides you with an economic advantage as the game goes on.

An early game build is like 3-gate expanding and teching to AoE before taking a third. Its a lot slower but a lot safer and opens up a bunch of early options. However you'll be at an economical ("farming") disadvantage after a while if your opponent goes for faster expands. So you will then have to make up for either by getting an expansion ahead (building a farming item late) or by using your early advantage to put on pressure and deal damage (kill their carry or harrass them out of lane). Or if you're straight up better than them you can often win anyway.



Edit: In response to the above comment about Antimage: thats an entirely different matter. As is Void, Medusa, etc etc. Nobody was talking about any of those heroes.

On October 02 2013 22:11 nojok wrote:

Or tiny with mana boots and dagger vs phase/treads and drum. I feel the first one get his agh way earlier all the time in pubs. We can add the bf on jugg/PA, midas helm of the dominator combo on luna/gyro, linken weaver, all this stuff designed to farm and not fighting. I don't say it's always wrong but it often turns a won laning phase into the ennemies taking all outer towers easily and getting an unsurmountable edge.

On October 02 2013 22:23 Acritter wrote:

Quick aside before I talk about the interesting parts of your post: Yango WAS talking about AM, so it's a valid point.

The curious part of the Starcraft analogy is that because of the single-player nature of the game, a 3gate expand CAN be a thrown game in some circumstances. Your opponent can quickly and reliably capitalize on your passive play and shut you out of the game. This won't always happen in DOTA2 simply because it's a team game, and it's harder to coordinate that kind of play. But when you get to the professional level, and you're playing with extremely high team coordination, you start seeing that kind of safe and reliable play becoming deleterious again. Isn't it funny how it all comes together?

I'd actually say that Midas is more of a safe, almost teamfight option in pubs. It lets you keep a lot of farm going under pressure and in fights. It certainly doesn't have the fighting potential of Drums, though, to be sure.

On October 02 2013 22:23 Acritter wrote:

Quick aside before I talk about the interesting parts of your post: Yango WAS talking about AM, so it's a valid point.

The curious part of the Starcraft analogy is that because of the single-player nature of the game, a 3gate expand CAN be a thrown game in some circumstances. Your opponent can quickly and reliably capitalize on your passive play and shut you out of the game. This won't always happen in DOTA2 simply because it's a team game, and it's harder to coordinate that kind of play. But when you get to the professional level, and you're playing with extremely high team coordination, you start seeing that kind of safe and reliable play becoming deleterious again. Isn't it funny how it all comes together?

I'd actually say that Midas is more of a safe, almost teamfight option in pubs. It lets you keep a lot of farm going under pressure and in fights. It certainly doesn't have the fighting potential of Drums, though, to be sure.

On October 02 2013 22:56 Mithhaike wrote:
To break up this long long discussion about play style.

Here's my favourite playstyle. Look at that....skill. EE has nothing on this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXoSZEKc9UY