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On September 26 2013 23:28 WindWolf wrote:
OD is good right now, but not IMBA IMBA IMBA.
The meta-game never seems to stop evolving, so I'm not worried about the state of balance right now
I never said OD was overpowered. It isn't. It has one hard counter, and another two or three soft counters.
OD is metagame-warping. The very existence of the hero necessarily changes how the game is played.
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OD isn't so bad IMO. He makes mid criminally boring sure but TA was kinda like that too @TI2.
He isn't that good a hero but he's mega-obnoxious in lane 
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On September 26 2013 23:28 WindWolf wrote:
OD is good right now, but not IMBA IMBA IMBA.
The meta-game never seems to stop evolving, so I'm not worried about the state of balance right now
I agree, OD I think is not overpowered. Like any snowball hero, he can get out of control, or fall behind irrecoverably. However, he is very very boring. You have to pick mid from a limited hero pool that can stand against him, and playing against him (which you have to since he is very popular) is incredibly annoying..
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OD is the guy who taught AM how to make sure the fun is over. He can stop the fun before it even starts.
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On September 26 2013 23:33 Sn0_Man wrote:OD isn't so bad IMO. He makes mid criminally boring sure but TA was kinda like that too @TI2. He isn't that good a hero but he's mega-obnoxious in lane
The thing is, though, mid defines how the rest of the game plays out. Mid is the core role going into the midgame, and no decision can be made without first looking at how mid will affect it. You could make a very strong argument that the sudden rise of Alchemist to dominance is in part due to the vast decrease of midgame impact from the mid role (although the nerfs to the other potential carries certainly helped).
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Well, he is kinda OP in a sense that if the OD player is good it's borderline impossible to win a lane agaisnt him and he is just gonna deny all the creeps with his lvl 2 90 dmg. Other than that he is just mediocre because he doesn't add anything to the team apart of damage.
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Here's a thing I noticed in pubs. OD dominates mid lane, loses game.
He's not really that op but just annoying to lane.
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On September 26 2013 23:33 Sn0_Man wrote:OD isn't so bad IMO. He makes mid criminally boring sure but TA was kinda like that too @TI2. He isn't that good a hero but he's mega-obnoxious in lane
Exactly my thoughts
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On September 26 2013 23:39 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2013 23:33 Sn0_Man wrote:OD isn't so bad IMO. He makes mid criminally boring sure but TA was kinda like that too @TI2. He isn't that good a hero but he's mega-obnoxious in lane The thing is, though, mid defines how the rest of the game plays out. Mid is the core role going into the midgame, and no decision can be made without first looking at how mid will affect it. You could make a very strong argument that the sudden rise of Alchemist to dominance is in part due to the vast decrease of midgame impact from the mid role (although the nerfs to the other potential carries certainly helped).
Not really. OD is terrible at dictating the flow of the game, for one thing.
But by and large, while mid heroes are given the levels and farm to have a big impact, it really isn't always them. Sometimes its the bat coming out of the jungle that makes it happen (completely disregarding who his mid is). Sometimes its the bounty from offlane. Sometimes its the supports roaming and making space.
There's lots of ways to play around your mid hero not having the game he wants. Just abuse the fact that they have an OD
PS A lot of OD's strength had to do with int-steal bugs. One fixed, at least one to go. Once stealing int granted by items goes away he'll be quite a bit more "reasonable".
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On September 26 2013 23:45 Sn0_Man wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2013 23:39 Acritter wrote:On September 26 2013 23:33 Sn0_Man wrote:OD isn't so bad IMO. He makes mid criminally boring sure but TA was kinda like that too @TI2. He isn't that good a hero but he's mega-obnoxious in lane The thing is, though, mid defines how the rest of the game plays out. Mid is the core role going into the midgame, and no decision can be made without first looking at how mid will affect it. You could make a very strong argument that the sudden rise of Alchemist to dominance is in part due to the vast decrease of midgame impact from the mid role (although the nerfs to the other potential carries certainly helped). Not really. OD is terrible at dictating the flow of the game, for one thing. But by and large, while mid heroes are given the levels and farm to have a big impact, it really isn't always them. Sometimes its the bat coming out of the jungle that makes it happen (completely disregarding who his mid is). Sometimes its the bounty from offlane. Sometimes its the supports roaming and making space. There's lots of ways to play around your mid hero not having the game he wants. Just abuse the fact that they have an OD PS A lot of OD's strength had to do with int-steal bugs. One fixed, at least one to go. Once stealing int granted by items goes away he'll be quite a bit more "reasonable".
OD is FANTASTIC at dictating the flow of the game, what are you even saying? He dictates that there is no enemy mid who can rotate and find kills, barring the 1-2-2 Kunkka build.
And that second bug you mentioned isn't even a bug... it literally makes no difference unless you're running a four-Mantle Kunkka.
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On September 26 2013 23:51 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2013 23:45 Sn0_Man wrote:On September 26 2013 23:39 Acritter wrote:On September 26 2013 23:33 Sn0_Man wrote:OD isn't so bad IMO. He makes mid criminally boring sure but TA was kinda like that too @TI2. He isn't that good a hero but he's mega-obnoxious in lane The thing is, though, mid defines how the rest of the game plays out. Mid is the core role going into the midgame, and no decision can be made without first looking at how mid will affect it. You could make a very strong argument that the sudden rise of Alchemist to dominance is in part due to the vast decrease of midgame impact from the mid role (although the nerfs to the other potential carries certainly helped). Not really. OD is terrible at dictating the flow of the game, for one thing. But by and large, while mid heroes are given the levels and farm to have a big impact, it really isn't always them. Sometimes its the bat coming out of the jungle that makes it happen (completely disregarding who his mid is). Sometimes its the bounty from offlane. Sometimes its the supports roaming and making space. There's lots of ways to play around your mid hero not having the game he wants. Just abuse the fact that they have an OD PS A lot of OD's strength had to do with int-steal bugs. One fixed, at least one to go. Once stealing int granted by items goes away he'll be quite a bit more "reasonable". OD is FANTASTIC at dictating the flow of the game, what are you even saying? He dictates that there is no enemy mid who can rotate and find kills, barring the 1-2-2 Kunkka build. And that second bug you mentioned isn't even a bug... it literally makes no difference unless you're running a four-Mantle Kunkka.
A) Its 100% a bug please don't characterize it as "isn't even a bug" thats false.
B) It makes lots of difference. 3-branch bottle-rush troll can actually cast whirling axes this way for CS. Lots of low-base-int heroes rely on very cheap spells to improve their lane power (beyond troll, heroes like viper, PA, etc). Hell, you can resummon as lone-druid with 5 gg branches (not a common build but if you were having issues you could MAKE IT HAPPEN).
Its not relevant every game but who cares its still quite relevant.
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On September 26 2013 23:58 Sn0_Man wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2013 23:51 Acritter wrote:On September 26 2013 23:45 Sn0_Man wrote:On September 26 2013 23:39 Acritter wrote:On September 26 2013 23:33 Sn0_Man wrote:OD isn't so bad IMO. He makes mid criminally boring sure but TA was kinda like that too @TI2. He isn't that good a hero but he's mega-obnoxious in lane The thing is, though, mid defines how the rest of the game plays out. Mid is the core role going into the midgame, and no decision can be made without first looking at how mid will affect it. You could make a very strong argument that the sudden rise of Alchemist to dominance is in part due to the vast decrease of midgame impact from the mid role (although the nerfs to the other potential carries certainly helped). Not really. OD is terrible at dictating the flow of the game, for one thing. But by and large, while mid heroes are given the levels and farm to have a big impact, it really isn't always them. Sometimes its the bat coming out of the jungle that makes it happen (completely disregarding who his mid is). Sometimes its the bounty from offlane. Sometimes its the supports roaming and making space. There's lots of ways to play around your mid hero not having the game he wants. Just abuse the fact that they have an OD PS A lot of OD's strength had to do with int-steal bugs. One fixed, at least one to go. Once stealing int granted by items goes away he'll be quite a bit more "reasonable". OD is FANTASTIC at dictating the flow of the game, what are you even saying? He dictates that there is no enemy mid who can rotate and find kills, barring the 1-2-2 Kunkka build. And that second bug you mentioned isn't even a bug... it literally makes no difference unless you're running a four-Mantle Kunkka. A) Its 100% a bug please don't characterize it as "isn't even a bug" thats false. B) It makes lots of difference. 3-branch bottle-rush troll can actually cast whirling axes this way for CS. Lots of low-base-int heroes rely on very cheap spells to improve their lane power (beyond troll, heroes like viper, PA, etc). Hell, you can resummon as lone-druid with 5 gg branches (not a common build but if you were having issues you could MAKE IT HAPPEN). Its not relevant every game but who cares its still quite relevant.
It's not relevant any game. The Troll is going to still be able to cast Axes at early levels due to Astral's slow scaling, and will still hit the later problems from oh-you're-trying-to-last-hit-I'm-going-to-Astral-and-deny-four-creeps syndrome. If you run PA mid, you're having much more serious problems than losing the int from your branches, and LD shouldn't ever be getting Astraled in the first place.
I assume you agree that OD completely dictates the flow of the game, by the way?
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I don't think you guys understand what 'flow of the game' is
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On September 27 2013 00:05 Acritter wrote:
It's not relevant any game. The Troll is going to still be able to cast Axes at early levels due to Astral's slow scaling,
False, troll has 13 base int and 1 int gain. You can put him to 1 int @ level 1 if you feel the need.
On September 27 2013 00:05 Acritter wrote:
and will still hit the later problems from oh-you're-trying-to-last-hit-I'm-going-to-Astral-and-deny-four-creeps syndrome.
False, whirling axes should GUARANTEE you 2 or 3 creeps each wave.
On September 27 2013 00:05 Acritter wrote:
If you run PA mid, you're having much more serious problems than losing the int from your branches
Sure, it was a minor example. Its probably a lot more legit than you are giving it credit for though.
On September 27 2013 00:05 Acritter wrote:
and LD shouldn't ever be getting Astraled in the first place.
False, you have to come in range to lasthit with your hero since the bear can't out-cs 70 base damage
On September 27 2013 00:05 Acritter wrote:
I assume you agree that OD completely dictates the flow of the game, by the way?
No, he invalidates a large portion of mid heros. Thats it.
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On September 27 2013 00:17 Sn0_Man wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 00:05 Acritter wrote:
It's not relevant any game. The Troll is going to still be able to cast Axes at early levels due to Astral's slow scaling,
False, troll has 13 base int and 1 int gain. You can put him to 1 int @ level 1 if you feel the need. Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 00:05 Acritter wrote:
and will still hit the later problems from oh-you're-trying-to-last-hit-I'm-going-to-Astral-and-deny-four-creeps syndrome.
False, whirling axes should GUARANTEE you 2 or 3 creeps each wave. Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 00:05 Acritter wrote:
If you run PA mid, you're having much more serious problems than losing the int from your branches
Sure, it was a minor example. Its probably a lot more legit than you are giving it credit for though. Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 00:05 Acritter wrote:
and LD shouldn't ever be getting Astraled in the first place.
False, you have to come in range to lasthit with your hero since the bear can't out-cs 70 base damage Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 00:05 Acritter wrote:
I assume you agree that OD completely dictates the flow of the game, by the way? No, he invalidates a large portion of mid heros. Thats it.
...
You're wrong from the very first point. Astral removes 2 int at level 1. It has an 18 second cooldown. It lasts 60 seconds. You can cast it an absolute maximum of four times, totaling 8 int removal. That 8 int removal lasts a grand total of 6 seconds.
This is just embarrassing.
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United States47024 Posts
On September 27 2013 00:22 Acritter wrote:
You're wrong from the very first point. Astral removes 2 int at level 1.
Apparently you're still playing 6.74?
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Netherlands45349 Posts
Well that is quite embarassing, its 4, not 2.
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On September 27 2013 00:26 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 00:22 Acritter wrote:
You're wrong from the very first point. Astral removes 2 int at level 1. Apparently you're still playing 6.74?
Ah, that's my mistake. I could have sworn the scaling was shifted to 2/4/6/10.
It's still the case that you can't get Troll to 1 intelligence without blowing your whole mana pool.
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On September 27 2013 00:26 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 00:22 Acritter wrote:
You're wrong from the very first point. Astral removes 2 int at level 1. Apparently you're still playing 6.74?
Talking about embarrassment..
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EPT
