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United States47024 Posts
PMS on non-Agi Melee can be very good early game. 1 armor and 20 reliable damage block is simply good if you make good on the level 1-5 man-fighting power of the item, even if +6 Agi doesn't give you damage. It's predicated on you getting the most out of the item though. As always with PMS, you shouldn't just blindly get it but consider whether what it gives you is suitable to how those early levels are playing out.
On August 20 2013 01:57 ch33psh33p wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 01:52 trinxified wrote:On August 20 2013 01:49 Sn0_Man wrote:
Stout yes on anything that isn't support and even on some support, PMS no unless its an agi carry. Str carries I use the 2xslipper gold for bracer -> drums or urn.
Heroes like sand king and earthshaker really have no need to be tanking creeps, although if you for some reason have SK in a tri-v-tri lane (hes pretty weak in these situations usually) then a stout allows him to stun in and not insta-die to the creep aggro etc.
PMS works on troll the way you think it would. When he is ranged it blocks 10 and melee it blocks 20. I don't know if it rolls at hit time or at attack time tho. Its possible that some nifty range toggling could save you a bit of dmg in lane. Well 20 dmg blocked at 100% is quite good for early to mid game, even for STR heroes. Much better than a bracer build-up. Speaking of this. Is it ever a good idea to grab a PMS on strength heroes that tend to fight a lot early? Say someone like a CK?
Depends how early "early" is to you.
PMS specifically has the highest effectiveness in early laning, and makes the difference on level 1-5 man-fights. Contrary to what people believe, it actually doesn't perform that well compared to regen against harass. It's specifically good against kill attempts and man-fighting someone at level 1-5 in lane.
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6% attackspeed increase ain't bad too 
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On August 20 2013 02:14 TheYango wrote:PMS on non-Agi Melee can be very good early game. 1 armor and 20 reliable damage block is simply good if you make good on the level 1-5 man-fighting power of the item, even if +6 Agi doesn't give you damage. It's predicated on you getting the most out of the item though. As always with PMS, you shouldn't just blindly get it but consider whether what it gives you is suitable to how those early levels are playing out. Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 01:57 ch33psh33p wrote:On August 20 2013 01:52 trinxified wrote:On August 20 2013 01:49 Sn0_Man wrote:
Stout yes on anything that isn't support and even on some support, PMS no unless its an agi carry. Str carries I use the 2xslipper gold for bracer -> drums or urn.
Heroes like sand king and earthshaker really have no need to be tanking creeps, although if you for some reason have SK in a tri-v-tri lane (hes pretty weak in these situations usually) then a stout allows him to stun in and not insta-die to the creep aggro etc.
PMS works on troll the way you think it would. When he is ranged it blocks 10 and melee it blocks 20. I don't know if it rolls at hit time or at attack time tho. Its possible that some nifty range toggling could save you a bit of dmg in lane. Well 20 dmg blocked at 100% is quite good for early to mid game, even for STR heroes. Much better than a bracer build-up. Speaking of this. Is it ever a good idea to grab a PMS on strength heroes that tend to fight a lot early? Say someone like a CK? Depends how early "early" is to you. PMS specifically has the highest effectiveness in early laning, and makes the difference on level 1-5 man-fights. Contrary to what people believe, it actually doesn't perform that well compared to regen against harass. It's specifically good against kill attempts and man-fighting someone at level 1-5 in lane.
I'm glad I'm not the only one that thinks this.
Often, when playing someone like Naix against a trilane with 2-3 ranged, I'll pick up the PMS - being able to block those 3 hits every time that average for 50 damage is a pretty big deal. (although for different reasons).
Its worth noting that getting addtional regen requires an early courier usage, which can end up stealing it from the mid hero.
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On August 20 2013 02:14 TheYango wrote:PMS on non-Agi Melee can be very good early game. 1 armor and 20 reliable damage block is simply good if you make good on the level 1-5 man-fighting power of the item, even if +6 Agi doesn't give you damage. It's predicated on you getting the most out of the item though. As always with PMS, you shouldn't just blindly get it but consider whether what it gives you is suitable to how those early levels are playing out. Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 01:57 ch33psh33p wrote:On August 20 2013 01:52 trinxified wrote:On August 20 2013 01:49 Sn0_Man wrote:
Stout yes on anything that isn't support and even on some support, PMS no unless its an agi carry. Str carries I use the 2xslipper gold for bracer -> drums or urn.
Heroes like sand king and earthshaker really have no need to be tanking creeps, although if you for some reason have SK in a tri-v-tri lane (hes pretty weak in these situations usually) then a stout allows him to stun in and not insta-die to the creep aggro etc.
PMS works on troll the way you think it would. When he is ranged it blocks 10 and melee it blocks 20. I don't know if it rolls at hit time or at attack time tho. Its possible that some nifty range toggling could save you a bit of dmg in lane. Well 20 dmg blocked at 100% is quite good for early to mid game, even for STR heroes. Much better than a bracer build-up. Speaking of this. Is it ever a good idea to grab a PMS on strength heroes that tend to fight a lot early? Say someone like a CK? Depends how early "early" is to you. PMS specifically has the highest effectiveness in early laning, and makes the difference on level 1-5 man-fights. Contrary to what people believe, it actually doesn't perform that well compared to regen against harass. It's specifically good against kill attempts and man-fighting someone at level 1-5 in lane. I always thought it was a reasonable purchase on carrys that don't get regen items in their main build, like Specter. If you are already getting the Stout Shied, its a pretty low cost item for someone who is going to be waiting a while before they get that big first item.
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I get it way more often than I should on heroes like AM when I'm basically 1v0 since my team is being legit about zoning the enemy. The extra 6 agi is my last-hit-assist (although I already have qblade as well, I just nub). I always get it on spectre too, although at least with spectre it is quite common to show up at fights around level 6 (free gold!).
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United States47024 Posts
If you are receiving lane harassment, you're going to buy regen on Spec. RoH, Tranquil, Urn, etc...she has a variety of options for a variety of scenarios. PMS quite simply does not replace regen items.
The nature of how damage block works (applied before armor, interacts only with autoattacks) makes it specifically good on levels 1-5--where any man-fight or kill attempt is going to be heavily centered on autoattack damage because of how peoples' nukes aren't leveled yet, but at the same time those autoattacks will be weak because nobody has items yet. It's effectiveness plummets after this stage, so really, PMS' usefulness depends on what you do with it during those levels.
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That just makes it sound like an item that is dependant on how safe or greedy you want to be. You get the PMS if you want to be extra safe and avoid burning through regen. You don’t if you want to rush the first item.
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goddamn i love funnik, his item choices always impress me, eza with necro3+BoT and then manta, manta is a legit item to go high ground.
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United States47024 Posts
Well if you want to man-fight 2v2/3v3 at those low levels it can get you kills winning you fights the enemy think they should win.
This is actually pretty common in pubs given how unreliable pubs can be at judging their damage-dealing ability on those low levels.
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On August 20 2013 02:47 TheYango wrote:
Well if you want to man-fight 2v2/3v3 it can get you kills winning you fights the enemy think they should win.
This reminds me of korok's ursa a lot for some reason.
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On August 20 2013 02:36 TheYango wrote:
If you are receiving lane harassment, you're going to buy regen on Spec. RoH, Tranquil, Urn, etc...she has a variety of options for a variety of scenarios. PMS quite simply does not replace regen items.
The nature of how damage block works (applied before armor, interacts only with autoattacks) makes it specifically good on levels 1-5--where any man-fight or kill attempt is going to be heavily centered on autoattack damage because of how peoples' nukes aren't leveled yet, but at the same time those autoattacks will be weak because nobody has items yet. It's effectiveness plummets after this stage, so really, PMS' usefulness depends on what you do with it during those levels.
Well there's no reason to sell the PMS other than freeing up another inventory slot. It will always reduce damage whether enemy heroes deal 50 or 150.
So yes it does fall off with its usefulness towards the mid game, but nobody should be buying it in the mid game anyway.
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On August 20 2013 02:36 TheYango wrote:
If you are receiving lane harassment, you're going to buy regen on Spec. RoH, Tranquil, Urn, etc...she has a variety of options for a variety of scenarios. PMS quite simply does not replace regen items.
The nature of how damage block works (applied before armor, interacts only with autoattacks) makes it specifically good on levels 1-5--where any man-fight or kill attempt is going to be heavily centered on autoattack damage because of how peoples' nukes aren't leveled yet, but at the same time those autoattacks will be weak because nobody has items yet. It's effectiveness plummets after this stage, so really, PMS' usefulness depends on what you do with it during those levels.
I suggest going for RoH if possible and dismiss Tranquils. RoH can be turned into Refresher, Tranquils make your illusions slower than they are supposed to be.
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On August 20 2013 03:28 ChunderBoy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 02:36 TheYango wrote:
If you are receiving lane harassment, you're going to buy regen on Spec. RoH, Tranquil, Urn, etc...she has a variety of options for a variety of scenarios. PMS quite simply does not replace regen items.
The nature of how damage block works (applied before armor, interacts only with autoattacks) makes it specifically good on levels 1-5--where any man-fight or kill attempt is going to be heavily centered on autoattack damage because of how peoples' nukes aren't leveled yet, but at the same time those autoattacks will be weak because nobody has items yet. It's effectiveness plummets after this stage, so really, PMS' usefulness depends on what you do with it during those levels. I suggest going for RoH if possible and dismiss Tranquils. RoH can be turned into Refresher, Tranquils make your illusions slower than they are supposed to be.
RoH is dead-end on spectre since refresher isn't an item on her, and neither are any of the other RoH items (I guess bfury but that is awful  )
Tranquils are a lot cheaper than RoH (assuming you are getting boots anyway) and the limited MS on illusions isn't really an issue since your illusions start at 400 MS and by the time you are serious about teamfighting you should have one or more of yasha/manta/drums and have swapped out your boots anyway.
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On August 20 2013 03:34 Sn0_Man wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 03:28 ChunderBoy wrote:On August 20 2013 02:36 TheYango wrote:
If you are receiving lane harassment, you're going to buy regen on Spec. RoH, Tranquil, Urn, etc...she has a variety of options for a variety of scenarios. PMS quite simply does not replace regen items.
The nature of how damage block works (applied before armor, interacts only with autoattacks) makes it specifically good on levels 1-5--where any man-fight or kill attempt is going to be heavily centered on autoattack damage because of how peoples' nukes aren't leveled yet, but at the same time those autoattacks will be weak because nobody has items yet. It's effectiveness plummets after this stage, so really, PMS' usefulness depends on what you do with it during those levels. I suggest going for RoH if possible and dismiss Tranquils. RoH can be turned into Refresher, Tranquils make your illusions slower than they are supposed to be. RoH is dead-end on spectre since refresher isn't an item on her, and neither are any of the other RoH items (I guess bfury but that is awful ) Tranquils are a lot cheaper than RoH (assuming you are getting boots anyway) and the limited MS on illusions isn't really an issue since your illusions start at 400 MS and by the time you are serious about teamfighting you should have one or more of yasha/manta/drums and have swapped out your boots anyway.
Refresher actually IS the best item on her after Radiance.
Sooner or later that will be the normal Spectre build.
Much like Refresher/Scepter Razor, which I did 3 years ago.
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On August 20 2013 03:35 ChunderBoy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 03:34 Sn0_Man wrote:On August 20 2013 03:28 ChunderBoy wrote:On August 20 2013 02:36 TheYango wrote:
If you are receiving lane harassment, you're going to buy regen on Spec. RoH, Tranquil, Urn, etc...she has a variety of options for a variety of scenarios. PMS quite simply does not replace regen items.
The nature of how damage block works (applied before armor, interacts only with autoattacks) makes it specifically good on levels 1-5--where any man-fight or kill attempt is going to be heavily centered on autoattack damage because of how peoples' nukes aren't leveled yet, but at the same time those autoattacks will be weak because nobody has items yet. It's effectiveness plummets after this stage, so really, PMS' usefulness depends on what you do with it during those levels. I suggest going for RoH if possible and dismiss Tranquils. RoH can be turned into Refresher, Tranquils make your illusions slower than they are supposed to be. RoH is dead-end on spectre since refresher isn't an item on her, and neither are any of the other RoH items (I guess bfury but that is awful ) Tranquils are a lot cheaper than RoH (assuming you are getting boots anyway) and the limited MS on illusions isn't really an issue since your illusions start at 400 MS and by the time you are serious about teamfighting you should have one or more of yasha/manta/drums and have swapped out your boots anyway. Refresher actually IS the best item on her after Radiance. Sooner or later that will be the normal Spectre build. Much like Refresher/Scepter Razor, which I did 3 years ago.
Why would refresher not be a total waste of gold when you could get better items like manta style or like any other item in the world? She only has one ability that refresher would be useful for and its not like you are going to use that twice in a team fight.
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On August 20 2013 03:39 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 03:35 ChunderBoy wrote:On August 20 2013 03:34 Sn0_Man wrote:On August 20 2013 03:28 ChunderBoy wrote:On August 20 2013 02:36 TheYango wrote:
If you are receiving lane harassment, you're going to buy regen on Spec. RoH, Tranquil, Urn, etc...she has a variety of options for a variety of scenarios. PMS quite simply does not replace regen items.
The nature of how damage block works (applied before armor, interacts only with autoattacks) makes it specifically good on levels 1-5--where any man-fight or kill attempt is going to be heavily centered on autoattack damage because of how peoples' nukes aren't leveled yet, but at the same time those autoattacks will be weak because nobody has items yet. It's effectiveness plummets after this stage, so really, PMS' usefulness depends on what you do with it during those levels. I suggest going for RoH if possible and dismiss Tranquils. RoH can be turned into Refresher, Tranquils make your illusions slower than they are supposed to be. RoH is dead-end on spectre since refresher isn't an item on her, and neither are any of the other RoH items (I guess bfury but that is awful ) Tranquils are a lot cheaper than RoH (assuming you are getting boots anyway) and the limited MS on illusions isn't really an issue since your illusions start at 400 MS and by the time you are serious about teamfighting you should have one or more of yasha/manta/drums and have swapped out your boots anyway. Refresher actually IS the best item on her after Radiance. Sooner or later that will be the normal Spectre build. Much like Refresher/Scepter Razor, which I did 3 years ago. Why would refresher not be a total waste of gold when you could get better items like manta style or like any other item in the world? She only has one ability that refresher would be useful for and its not like you are going to use that twice in a team fight.
its called the deathball spectre, its basically centered around radiance burn + desolate being able to just kill off supports.
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She won't even have enough mana to use it twice actually.
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On August 20 2013 03:45 trinxified wrote:
She won't even have enough mana to use it twice actually.
She can use it from fountain with no disadvantages
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On August 20 2013 03:45 trinxified wrote:
She won't even have enough mana to use it twice actually.
At what level are you talking? @16 she can ult refresher ult with only a refresher nothing else (it costs 1 less than her exact mana pool of 598 + 78 = 676 vs 150 + 375 + 150 = 675).
That doesn't prevent it from being really really awful though lol.
Edit: I suppose you would want to wait 7 seconds between ults anway since the radiance burn wouldn't stack. I assume the illusions would stack though if you just insta-double-ulted?
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refresher is quite good on spectre but completely unfeasible as a second item due to her slow mana pool and lack of survivability, so the fact that the RoH sits in your inventory for about 35 minutes collecting dust just so you can save 400 gold to build it as your 3/4th item is absolutely wasteful. If you feel hampered by mobility by getting a tranq, just get phase+tranqs, which is overall superior to phase+roh by a significant margin
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EPT
