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On August 20 2013 01:13 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 01:11 Sn0_Man wrote:
Morph is actually kinda questionable late due to basically weak mobility lol. He has awful range and after the first waveform it can be hard to keep hitting your target. He has really bad base MS and even manta + BoTs + Skadi aren't a guarantee that you can always hit your target. I saw powernet complaining in a pub game that he couldn't outcarry a tinker as morph because his team couldn't fight under march and without some assistance the tinker could perma-sheep him.
PL is the stone nuts 1v1 late anybody who disagrees hasn't tried to fight 12 PLs who do 20% dmg plus mana break. its like fighting 2 6-slot heroes with 4.2 agi gain (LOL), only you aren't even fighting the real one. Manta/Butter/Heart/BoT/Diffusal2/ggbranch is fine, you don't even need the 6th slot. PS ethereal is also the nuts since he can purge it off you and let his illusions go to work. That kinda applies to any carry though. Anyone would be perma-sheeped if Tinker manages to land the first one and they dont have support.
His biggest problem is that he is a low range ranged carry, and if we are talking mega lategame manfights, not having an abyssal blade is the end of that.
Edit: I suppose he could get an abyssal. O.o
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On August 20 2013 01:11 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 01:06 Talron wrote:On August 20 2013 00:39 SKC wrote:On August 20 2013 00:37 Vaelone wrote:
No love for 12 slot bear? Its a cute thorycraft with no actuall application in real games, so Im not surprised people dont include Syllabear. Bro, do you even 98 minute-game? He wasnt exactly that strong in that game. And wasnt exactly at full build even then.
He wasnt strong because the peak power for LD is more when Bear hits 6 slots more than when the druid himself gets items. The OD and Weaver ripped the bear apart because it was weak compared to a hero at that point and couldn't survive a rapier weaver and the true damage from OD. They were relying too much on a bear that was basically just free 300 gold instead of manning up and ending the game.
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EDIT: PS: Heroes with an innate bash actually are at a disadvantage right now due to how OP abyssal blade is atm. Its kinda dumb.
Hah I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks this. Poor Slardar and Void.
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On August 20 2013 01:17 Kyhron wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 01:11 SKC wrote:On August 20 2013 01:06 Talron wrote:On August 20 2013 00:39 SKC wrote:On August 20 2013 00:37 Vaelone wrote:
No love for 12 slot bear? Its a cute thorycraft with no actuall application in real games, so Im not surprised people dont include Syllabear. Bro, do you even 98 minute-game? He wasnt exactly that strong in that game. And wasnt exactly at full build even then. He wasnt strong because the peak power for LD is more when Bear hits 6 slots more than when the druid himself gets items. The OD and Weaver ripped the bear apart because it was weak compared to a hero at that point and couldn't survive a rapier weaver and the true damage from OD. They were relying too much on a bear that was basically just free 300 gold instead of manning up and ending the game.
Thats kinda the point. If we are talking about super lategame carries, and LD is talked about as a extremelly strong lategame carry because he goes past the 6 items limit, that game certaily isnt one that supports the theory. People always talk about LD as a monster if he manages to get 12 slotted, but he never truly does, and he isnt even THAT strong when he does, depending on what he is facing.
I dont think they would have been in a weaker position if they had a 6 slotted Spectre/Dusa/Void in that game.
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On August 20 2013 01:20 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +EDIT: PS: Heroes with an innate bash actually are at a disadvantage right now due to how OP abyssal blade is atm. Its kinda dumb. Hah I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks this. Poor Slardar and Void.
Why? Their bashes are actually better than the Abyssal proc isn't it? I guess the active ability?
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On August 20 2013 01:32 trinxified wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 01:20 Logo wrote:EDIT: PS: Heroes with an innate bash actually are at a disadvantage right now due to how OP abyssal blade is atm. Its kinda dumb. Hah I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks this. Poor Slardar and Void. Why? Their bashes are actually better than the Abyssal proc isn't it? I guess the active ability?
The passive bash of Basher/Abyssal lasts longer but has cooldown. It's true random 25%, whilst Slardar/Void use prd. I for one prefer true random compared to the prd that is used in Dota.
And I always say stuff like if Troll Warlord didn't have his melee bash he would be much better because he could buy a Basher.
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On August 20 2013 01:32 trinxified wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 01:20 Logo wrote:EDIT: PS: Heroes with an innate bash actually are at a disadvantage right now due to how OP abyssal blade is atm. Its kinda dumb. Hah I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks this. Poor Slardar and Void. Why? Their bashes are actually better than the Abyssal proc isn't it? I guess the active ability?
Their bashes are sorta better due to the lack of cooldown (somewhat offset by basher's longer duration bash). However, the active ability on Abyssal combined with it's excellent stats for a slot even without the active (+100 dmg is 2nd only to divine rapier in pure damage terms) essentially means that Abyssal is *the* lategame item. I think its original introduction was designed to let melee carries have a smoother mid-game to late-game transition with basher, while also giving them a way to outscale ranged carries who were much more popular due to all the assorted advantages of range.
Void doesn't suffer too much since he already has a very reliable BKB piercing disable with chronosphere, but even then he would love to be able to carry an abyssal I think.
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On August 20 2013 01:38 ChunderBoy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 01:32 trinxified wrote:On August 20 2013 01:20 Logo wrote:EDIT: PS: Heroes with an innate bash actually are at a disadvantage right now due to how OP abyssal blade is atm. Its kinda dumb. Hah I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks this. Poor Slardar and Void. Why? Their bashes are actually better than the Abyssal proc isn't it? I guess the active ability? The passive bash of Basher/Abyssal lasts longer but has cooldown. It's true random 25%, whilst Slardar/Void use prd. I for one prefer true random compared to the prd that is used in Dota. And I always say stuff like if Troll Warlord didn't have his melee bash he would be much better because he could buy a Basher.
Speaking of Troll Warlord, how does PMS work on this guy? Switches alongside his active?
And anyone else get PMS on almost every melee hero? I do haha, even on non-agility heroes.
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Stout yes on anything that isn't support and even on some support, PMS no unless its an agi carry. Str carries I use the 2xslipper gold for bracer -> drums or urn.
Heroes like sand king and earthshaker really have no need to be tanking creeps, although if you for some reason have SK in a tri-v-tri lane (hes pretty weak in these situations usually) then a stout allows him to stun in and not insta-die to the creep aggro etc.
PMS works on troll the way you think it would. When he is ranged it blocks 10 and melee it blocks 20. I don't know if it rolls at hit time or at attack time tho. Its possible that some nifty range toggling could save you a bit of dmg in lane.
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On August 20 2013 01:44 trinxified wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 01:38 ChunderBoy wrote:On August 20 2013 01:32 trinxified wrote:On August 20 2013 01:20 Logo wrote:EDIT: PS: Heroes with an innate bash actually are at a disadvantage right now due to how OP abyssal blade is atm. Its kinda dumb. Hah I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks this. Poor Slardar and Void. Why? Their bashes are actually better than the Abyssal proc isn't it? I guess the active ability? The passive bash of Basher/Abyssal lasts longer but has cooldown. It's true random 25%, whilst Slardar/Void use prd. I for one prefer true random compared to the prd that is used in Dota. And I always say stuff like if Troll Warlord didn't have his melee bash he would be much better because he could buy a Basher. Speaking of Troll Warlord, how does PMS work on this guy? Switches alongside his active? And anyone else get PMS on almost every melee hero? I do haha, even on non-agility heroes.
Yeah same for Bfury/Quelling/Vlads.
I get PMS on Str heroes mostly if I get random gold too.
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I just dont like that you cant even buy basher on the heroes come with bash passive, I couldn't even buy 4 bashers on my troll like dota1 for the lolz or sometimes legit usage of AB on void etc.
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On August 20 2013 01:49 Sn0_Man wrote:
Stout yes on anything that isn't support and even on some support, PMS no unless its an agi carry. Str carries I use the 2xslipper gold for bracer -> drums or urn.
Heroes like sand king and earthshaker really have no need to be tanking creeps, although if you for some reason have SK in a tri-v-tri lane (hes pretty weak in these situations usually) then a stout allows him to stun in and not insta-die to the creep aggro etc.
PMS works on troll the way you think it would. When he is ranged it blocks 10 and melee it blocks 20. I don't know if it rolls at hit time or at attack time tho. Its possible that some nifty range toggling could save you a bit of dmg in lane.
Well 20 dmg blocked at 100% is quite good for early to mid game, even for STR heroes. Much better than a bracer build-up.
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On August 20 2013 01:52 trinxified wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 01:49 Sn0_Man wrote:
Stout yes on anything that isn't support and even on some support, PMS no unless its an agi carry. Str carries I use the 2xslipper gold for bracer -> drums or urn.
Heroes like sand king and earthshaker really have no need to be tanking creeps, although if you for some reason have SK in a tri-v-tri lane (hes pretty weak in these situations usually) then a stout allows him to stun in and not insta-die to the creep aggro etc.
PMS works on troll the way you think it would. When he is ranged it blocks 10 and melee it blocks 20. I don't know if it rolls at hit time or at attack time tho. Its possible that some nifty range toggling could save you a bit of dmg in lane. Well 20 dmg blocked at 100% is quite good for early to mid game, even for STR heroes. Much better than a bracer build-up.
TFW Terrorblade starts with 8 armour and 20 dmg blocked at 100% level 1 if he gets PMS.
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On August 20 2013 01:52 trinxified wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 01:49 Sn0_Man wrote:
Stout yes on anything that isn't support and even on some support, PMS no unless its an agi carry. Str carries I use the 2xslipper gold for bracer -> drums or urn.
Heroes like sand king and earthshaker really have no need to be tanking creeps, although if you for some reason have SK in a tri-v-tri lane (hes pretty weak in these situations usually) then a stout allows him to stun in and not insta-die to the creep aggro etc.
PMS works on troll the way you think it would. When he is ranged it blocks 10 and melee it blocks 20. I don't know if it rolls at hit time or at attack time tho. Its possible that some nifty range toggling could save you a bit of dmg in lane. Well 20 dmg blocked at 100% is quite good for early to mid game, even for STR heroes. Much better than a bracer build-up.
Speaking of this. Is it ever a good idea to grab a PMS on strength heroes that tend to fight a lot early? Say someone like a CK?
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On August 20 2013 01:52 trinxified wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 01:49 Sn0_Man wrote:
Stout yes on anything that isn't support and even on some support, PMS no unless its an agi carry. Str carries I use the 2xslipper gold for bracer -> drums or urn.
Heroes like sand king and earthshaker really have no need to be tanking creeps, although if you for some reason have SK in a tri-v-tri lane (hes pretty weak in these situations usually) then a stout allows him to stun in and not insta-die to the creep aggro etc.
PMS works on troll the way you think it would. When he is ranged it blocks 10 and melee it blocks 20. I don't know if it rolls at hit time or at attack time tho. Its possible that some nifty range toggling could save you a bit of dmg in lane. Well 20 dmg blocked at 100% is quite good for early to mid game, even for STR heroes. Much better than a bracer build-up.
I'd like to see this guy in CM, however I still think he's a bit too strong atm, have to nerf something.
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On August 20 2013 01:55 ChunderBoy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 01:52 trinxified wrote:On August 20 2013 01:49 Sn0_Man wrote:
Stout yes on anything that isn't support and even on some support, PMS no unless its an agi carry. Str carries I use the 2xslipper gold for bracer -> drums or urn.
Heroes like sand king and earthshaker really have no need to be tanking creeps, although if you for some reason have SK in a tri-v-tri lane (hes pretty weak in these situations usually) then a stout allows him to stun in and not insta-die to the creep aggro etc.
PMS works on troll the way you think it would. When he is ranged it blocks 10 and melee it blocks 20. I don't know if it rolls at hit time or at attack time tho. Its possible that some nifty range toggling could save you a bit of dmg in lane. Well 20 dmg blocked at 100% is quite good for early to mid game, even for STR heroes. Much better than a bracer build-up. TFW Terrorblade starts with 8 armour and 20 dmg blocked at 100% level 1 if he gets PMS.
and then somebody casts a spell on you and takes 25% of your health ^_^
On August 20 2013 01:57 ch33psh33p wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 01:52 trinxified wrote:On August 20 2013 01:49 Sn0_Man wrote:
Stout yes on anything that isn't support and even on some support, PMS no unless its an agi carry. Str carries I use the 2xslipper gold for bracer -> drums or urn.
Heroes like sand king and earthshaker really have no need to be tanking creeps, although if you for some reason have SK in a tri-v-tri lane (hes pretty weak in these situations usually) then a stout allows him to stun in and not insta-die to the creep aggro etc.
PMS works on troll the way you think it would. When he is ranged it blocks 10 and melee it blocks 20. I don't know if it rolls at hit time or at attack time tho. Its possible that some nifty range toggling could save you a bit of dmg in lane. Well 20 dmg blocked at 100% is quite good for early to mid game, even for STR heroes. Much better than a bracer build-up. Speaking of this. Is it ever a good idea to grab a PMS on strength heroes that tend to fight a lot early? Say someone like a CK?
It's only 8 more damage block on a dead end item.
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On August 20 2013 01:57 ch33psh33p wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 01:52 trinxified wrote:On August 20 2013 01:49 Sn0_Man wrote:
Stout yes on anything that isn't support and even on some support, PMS no unless its an agi carry. Str carries I use the 2xslipper gold for bracer -> drums or urn.
Heroes like sand king and earthshaker really have no need to be tanking creeps, although if you for some reason have SK in a tri-v-tri lane (hes pretty weak in these situations usually) then a stout allows him to stun in and not insta-die to the creep aggro etc.
PMS works on troll the way you think it would. When he is ranged it blocks 10 and melee it blocks 20. I don't know if it rolls at hit time or at attack time tho. Its possible that some nifty range toggling could save you a bit of dmg in lane. Well 20 dmg blocked at 100% is quite good for early to mid game, even for STR heroes. Much better than a bracer build-up. Speaking of this. Is it ever a good idea to grab a PMS on strength heroes that tend to fight a lot early? Say someone like a CK?
Well I do it and I think it's a good idea and investment. I'm not sure if it really is though... Was hoping someone could share a more insightful and detailed response.
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On August 20 2013 01:59 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 01:55 ChunderBoy wrote:On August 20 2013 01:52 trinxified wrote:On August 20 2013 01:49 Sn0_Man wrote:
Stout yes on anything that isn't support and even on some support, PMS no unless its an agi carry. Str carries I use the 2xslipper gold for bracer -> drums or urn.
Heroes like sand king and earthshaker really have no need to be tanking creeps, although if you for some reason have SK in a tri-v-tri lane (hes pretty weak in these situations usually) then a stout allows him to stun in and not insta-die to the creep aggro etc.
PMS works on troll the way you think it would. When he is ranged it blocks 10 and melee it blocks 20. I don't know if it rolls at hit time or at attack time tho. Its possible that some nifty range toggling could save you a bit of dmg in lane. Well 20 dmg blocked at 100% is quite good for early to mid game, even for STR heroes. Much better than a bracer build-up. TFW Terrorblade starts with 8 armour and 20 dmg blocked at 100% level 1 if he gets PMS. and then somebody casts a spell on you and takes 25% of your health ^_^ Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 01:57 ch33psh33p wrote:On August 20 2013 01:52 trinxified wrote:On August 20 2013 01:49 Sn0_Man wrote:
Stout yes on anything that isn't support and even on some support, PMS no unless its an agi carry. Str carries I use the 2xslipper gold for bracer -> drums or urn.
Heroes like sand king and earthshaker really have no need to be tanking creeps, although if you for some reason have SK in a tri-v-tri lane (hes pretty weak in these situations usually) then a stout allows him to stun in and not insta-die to the creep aggro etc.
PMS works on troll the way you think it would. When he is ranged it blocks 10 and melee it blocks 20. I don't know if it rolls at hit time or at attack time tho. Its possible that some nifty range toggling could save you a bit of dmg in lane. Well 20 dmg blocked at 100% is quite good for early to mid game, even for STR heroes. Much better than a bracer build-up. Speaking of this. Is it ever a good idea to grab a PMS on strength heroes that tend to fight a lot early? Say someone like a CK? It's only 8 more damage block on a dead end item.
How is it only 8 more damage block? Actualyl stout and PMS block the same 20 damage, but only the chance is different for hero attacks. 60% compared to 100%. So technically out of 10 attacks, 200 damage could be blocked as suppose to 120 only (RNG of course still could make it worse or better).
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On August 20 2013 01:57 ch33psh33p wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 01:52 trinxified wrote:On August 20 2013 01:49 Sn0_Man wrote:
Stout yes on anything that isn't support and even on some support, PMS no unless its an agi carry. Str carries I use the 2xslipper gold for bracer -> drums or urn.
Heroes like sand king and earthshaker really have no need to be tanking creeps, although if you for some reason have SK in a tri-v-tri lane (hes pretty weak in these situations usually) then a stout allows him to stun in and not insta-die to the creep aggro etc.
PMS works on troll the way you think it would. When he is ranged it blocks 10 and melee it blocks 20. I don't know if it rolls at hit time or at attack time tho. Its possible that some nifty range toggling could save you a bit of dmg in lane. Well 20 dmg blocked at 100% is quite good for early to mid game, even for STR heroes. Much better than a bracer build-up. Speaking of this. Is it ever a good idea to grab a PMS on strength heroes that tend to fight a lot early? Say someone like a CK?
PMS is only a higher % against heroes, not creeps. As such, it's benefits are for when you are being harassed in lane incessantly. The 300g investment seems a lot worse than, say, tango + gauntlet for strength heroes. Sure the tango is 90 wasted gold but the PMS is 150 wasted gold (the other 150 being recouped upon sale) and the gauntlet builds into bracer/drums/urn which are usually pretty slick.
Note that the tango/gauntlet plan helps you lasthit better, and is also miles better for stuff like tanking creeps while your support pulls or w/e.
Note that CK has more pressing issues that damage reduction since he runs fast and has a sweet HP pool, but is insanely mana starved. Midgame items turn him into a beast. PMS really isn't helping in that department IMO (over stout at least).
I mean, yeah if you are say a lifestealer getting pooled and going solo vs a prophet or something by all means buy that PMS or finish it from the side shop but I don't think I'd do it very often.
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On August 20 2013 02:05 trinxified wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 01:59 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On August 20 2013 01:55 ChunderBoy wrote:On August 20 2013 01:52 trinxified wrote:On August 20 2013 01:49 Sn0_Man wrote:
Stout yes on anything that isn't support and even on some support, PMS no unless its an agi carry. Str carries I use the 2xslipper gold for bracer -> drums or urn.
Heroes like sand king and earthshaker really have no need to be tanking creeps, although if you for some reason have SK in a tri-v-tri lane (hes pretty weak in these situations usually) then a stout allows him to stun in and not insta-die to the creep aggro etc.
PMS works on troll the way you think it would. When he is ranged it blocks 10 and melee it blocks 20. I don't know if it rolls at hit time or at attack time tho. Its possible that some nifty range toggling could save you a bit of dmg in lane. Well 20 dmg blocked at 100% is quite good for early to mid game, even for STR heroes. Much better than a bracer build-up. TFW Terrorblade starts with 8 armour and 20 dmg blocked at 100% level 1 if he gets PMS. and then somebody casts a spell on you and takes 25% of your health ^_^ On August 20 2013 01:57 ch33psh33p wrote:On August 20 2013 01:52 trinxified wrote:On August 20 2013 01:49 Sn0_Man wrote:
Stout yes on anything that isn't support and even on some support, PMS no unless its an agi carry. Str carries I use the 2xslipper gold for bracer -> drums or urn.
Heroes like sand king and earthshaker really have no need to be tanking creeps, although if you for some reason have SK in a tri-v-tri lane (hes pretty weak in these situations usually) then a stout allows him to stun in and not insta-die to the creep aggro etc.
PMS works on troll the way you think it would. When he is ranged it blocks 10 and melee it blocks 20. I don't know if it rolls at hit time or at attack time tho. Its possible that some nifty range toggling could save you a bit of dmg in lane. Well 20 dmg blocked at 100% is quite good for early to mid game, even for STR heroes. Much better than a bracer build-up. Speaking of this. Is it ever a good idea to grab a PMS on strength heroes that tend to fight a lot early? Say someone like a CK? It's only 8 more damage block on a dead end item. How is it only 8 more damage block? Actualyl stout and PMS block the same 20 damage, but only the chance is different for hero attacks. 60% compared to 100%. So technically out of 10 attacks, 200 damage could be blocked as suppose to 120 only (RNG of course still could make it worse or better).
Stout blocks 20 damage 60% of the time or an average of 12 damage. PMS blocks 20 damage whenever you're attacked by a hero. I suppose making the assumption that you're always attacked by a hero is a bit misplaced, but it just means that PMS is even worse than 8 more damage block on a dead end item.
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EPT
