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Edit: You're supposed to win when you're at an advantage. That is what the word means. You don't make winning teams in sports events play with one less person. PL is not an early or mid game hero, if he is the reason you're losing then it's most likely late enough you can't come back.
compare lets say basketball and dota, how often has a team that was 4 points behind caught up and won, how often has a team thats is 5000 gold behind? the numbers wouldent even be close. im not saying you shouldent have an advantage when your ahead , but in dota its particularly extremly hard to come back. and ive said it before ill say it again , this isent about PL , this is about bringing illusions in line with all other non hero unit mechanics in the game.
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On August 18 2013 02:42 Irratonalys wrote:Show nested quote +
Edit: You're supposed to win when you're at an advantage. That is what the word means. You don't make winning teams in sports events play with one less person. PL is not an early or mid game hero, if he is the reason you're losing then it's most likely late enough you can't come back.
compare lets say basketball and dota, how often has a team that was 4 points behind caught up and won, how often has a team thats is 5000 gold behind? the numbers wouldent even be close. im not saying you shouldent have an advantage when your ahead , but in dota its particularly extremly hard to come back. and ive said it before ill say it again , this isent about PL , this is about bringing illusions in line with all other non hero unit mechanics in the game.
I wouldn't say 4 points in Basketball is the same as 5000 gold in Dota.
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Honestly Treants from Nature's Prophet need the bounty rework if something ever needs one. They give the same bounties as the Spiderlings... How fair is that? They should give about twice as much as they do now, around 25-35 gold.
That can also have an effect on split pushing and intead of just mindlessly sending Treants in one lane then teleport to the other.
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I wouldn't say 4 points in Basketball is the same as 5000 gold in Dota.
i knew that reply was coming. but if you compare the total amount of gold in the average dotagame to the total number of points in the average basketball game , 4 points would roughly equal 5000 gold.
haha , stunned you now have i ?
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On August 18 2013 02:46 Irratonalys wrote:i knew that reply was coming. but if you compare the total amount of gold in the average dotagame to the total number of points in the average baseball game , 4 points would roughly equal 5000 gold. haha , stunned you now have i ?
Not really. That's really not a fair comparison. Being 5000 gold ahead in the early mid game is a far bigger advantage. You don't score faster in Basketball, you make money faster lategame in Dota. If you are talking about being 5k ahead 50mins in, then yeah, that's a small advantage that can be compared to 4 points.
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Not really. That's really not a fair comparison. Being 5000 gold ahead in the early mid game is a far bigger advantage. You don't score faster in Basketball, you make money faster lategame in Dota.
still the difference is like a 55% chance to win to an over 90% chance to win. Dota is overly biased towards the team in the lead, that cant be denied.
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On August 18 2013 02:49 Irratonalys wrote:Show nested quote +
Not really. That's really not a fair comparison. Being 5000 gold ahead in the early mid game is a far bigger advantage. You don't score faster in Basketball, you make money faster lategame in Dota.
still the difference is like a 55% chance to win to an over 90% chance to win. Dota is overly biased towards the team in the lead, that cant be denied.
That's because being in the lead by a very small amount in Basketball is meaningless. Compare it to being 1-0 in Football and it is a less absurd comparison. Even if not exactly acurate, because the is no way to accuratelly measure how much an advantage both of these situations are, and having gold isn't scoring. It's not more valid than comparing towers killed or any other arbitrary value.
I'm not sure being 5k ahead, at any point in the game, equals to having a 90% chance to win, specially if you somehow exclude other factors such as the better team having better odds at being ahead in the game, and winning it as well.
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That's because being in the lead by a very small amount in Basketball is meaningless. Compare it to being 1-0 in Football and it is a less absurd comparison. Even if not exactly acurate, because the is no way to accuratelly measure how much an advantage both of these situations are, and having gold isn't scoring. It's not more valid than comparing towers killed or any other arbitrary value.
well , since you only lose if the throne dies in dota and having a throne is a binary variable , by your logic then no team ever has a measurable advantage. i use gold because it is as good of an approximation towards measuring an advantage as we have.
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On August 18 2013 02:55 Irratonalys wrote:Show nested quote +
That's because being in the lead by a very small amount in Basketball is meaningless. Compare it to being 1-0 in Football and it is a less absurd comparison. Even if not exactly acurate, because the is no way to accuratelly measure how much an advantage both of these situations are, and having gold isn't scoring. It's not more valid than comparing towers killed or any other arbitrary value.
well , since you only lose if the throne dies in dota and having a throne is a binary variable , by your logic then no team ever has a measurable advantage. i use gold because it is as good of an approximation towards measuring an advantage as we have.
Exactly, there is no accurate measurable variable for "advantage". Gold is a bad measurement if you have a pushing team with an expiration date for example. That team can be 5k gold ahead and still be behind in the game. That doesn't mean you absolutelly cannot do any analysis involving gold as the measure of advantage, but you clearly cannot be as clear cut as you were and say 5k gold = 4 points just because of their relation to the average total gold earned and average points scored. Any analysis has to consider a lot more than that.
You could do something like looking up what kind of gold advantage gives a team 75% odds of winning, compare to which score advantage gives 75% odds in Basketball and say both are equally big, since they give you the same advantage over the other team in "chance to win". It's not particularly useful for this instance, but it just shows how things really aren't that simple.
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On August 18 2013 02:49 Irratonalys wrote:Show nested quote +
Not really. That's really not a fair comparison. Being 5000 gold ahead in the early mid game is a far bigger advantage. You don't score faster in Basketball, you make money faster lategame in Dota.
still the difference is like a 55% chance to win to an over 90% chance to win. Dota is overly biased towards the team in the lead, that cant be denied.
well i deny it. it is biased towards the leading team but not overly so.
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Any analysis has to consider a lot more than that.
well , its about as much work as im willing to put into a forum post , especially if its only tangiably related to my main point , namely , that illusions should have bounties.
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On August 18 2013 03:06 Irratonalys wrote:well , its about as much work as im willing to put into a forum post , especially if its only tangiably related to my main point , namely , that illusions should have bounties.
Then it probally isn't worth posting. An analysis that's that is largely irrelevant doesn't really help your argument. It will just sidetrack the discussion because people will pick apart your work. You could just say it's harder to comeback in Dota than it is in Basketball and it would have about the same value.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 18 2013 02:49 Irratonalys wrote:
Dota is overly biased towards the team in the lead, that cant be denied.
Compared to real sports? Yes.
However, MANY other E-sports games are like this. It's directly a consequence of one "game" being a single scenario played out to completion, rather than being a long series of scenarios that are repeatedly reset every time one team scores (even E-sports games that DO have resets this way typically have mechanics that persist across rounds). DotA is no more guilty of this than, say, Starcraft.
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Then it probally isn't worth posting. An analysis that's that is largely irrelevant doesn't really help your argument. It will just sidetrack the discussion because people will pick apart your work. You could say it's harder to comeback in Dota than it is in Basketball and it would have about the same value.
lets recap how we got here, illusions should have bounties, one of the many reasons why was that sieges with shadow demon , manta style , pl , naga or similar mechanics carry almost no risk and make an already loopsided game even more so. i then supported that argument with a comparison about relative advantages in other games. its fair to critizise its validity, still ive done way more work in support of my original statement than the posters that deny my original thesis.
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how many points and gold are in the average basketball and dota game anyway
like 90 and 50k per team?
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United States47024 Posts
On August 18 2013 03:06 Irratonalys wrote:well , its about as much work as im willing to put into a forum post , especially if its only tangiably related to my main point , namely , that illusions should have bounties.
Frankly "other things in the game are like this" is simply not a compelling argument.
Mechanics in DotA should be judged on the merit of whether they enhance the gameplay experience. "Balance" is something that doesn't make sense the way it does in an RTS because both teams have equal access to the hero pool, so the only real imbalance is Radiant/Dire and first pick/second pick. Everything else is a question of "does this make the game more fun/interesting to play?" Heroes being "balanced" to a similar power level falls under this umbrella, as a diversified viable hero pool makes the game more fun and interesting.
You simply have not provided a reason for how bounty on illusions would make the game more interesting. In fact, I would argue that it makes them LESS interesting because the fact that they do NOT provide bounty actually distinguishes them from the other summon/etc. based skills in how you have to handle them. In the case of spiderlings/treants/etc. someone who goes and farms them can get a windfall of cash from killing them, so it's reasonable to send someone across the map to go farm them because it will help their finances. But illusions are different specifically because they do NOT provide gold. It creates a different dynamic with regard to how you want to handle them. These subtle differences in response add strategic depth to the game.
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Thanks for making TL a better place TheYango!
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On August 18 2013 03:16 Irratonalys wrote:Show nested quote +Then it probally isn't worth posting. An analysis that's that is largely irrelevant doesn't really help your argument. It will just sidetrack the discussion because people will pick apart your work. You could say it's harder to comeback in Dota than it is in Basketball and it would have about the same value. lets recap how we got here, illusions should have bounties, one of the many reasons why was that sieges with shadow demon , manta style , pl , naga or similar mechanics have almost no risk and make an already loopsided game even more so. i then supported that argument with a comparison about relative advantages in other games. its fair to critizise its validity, still ive done way more work in support of my original statement than the posters that deny my original thesis.
Because it's a situation that can't be mathed out. If you make defending high ground easier and make it harder for teams to push, games will become even more passive and less fun. It's a strenght that IceFrog has tried to decrease, not increase. A team being far ahead and not being able to break high ground, and as such having to outfarm the other team for 15 more mins is probally one of the biggest issues with Dota as a spectator sport, we don't need to punish sieging even more. This change wouldn't affect other parts of the game nearly as much.
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You simply have not provided a reason for how bounty on illusions would make the game more interesting
but i have , two pages ago. namely that it would demand more skill from the player who controls the illusions to prevent them from being fed, the same thing that makes broodmother , visage and lone druid gameplay intresting. that is fun/interesting to play and watch. of course their are balance issues involved we talked about that at length already.
i got to go know , ill return to this thread in a few hours to counter any orther argument you might have. 
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United States47024 Posts
On August 18 2013 03:20 SKC wrote:
A team being far ahead and not being able to break high ground, and as such having to outfarm the other team for 15 more mins is probally one of the biggest issues with Dota as a spectator sport, we don't need to punish sieging even more.
Pretty much this.
The fact that a team with a decisive advantage needs to extend their advantage by too much in order to overcome high ground/buyback advantage has historically been a far more frequent complaint of DotA than it being too hard to come back.
On August 18 2013 03:21 Irratonalys wrote:Show nested quote +You simply have not provided a reason for how bounty on illusions would make the game more interesting but i have , two pages ago. namely that it would demand more skill from the player who controls the illusions to prevent them from being fed. that is fun/interesting to play and watch. of course their are balance issues involved we talked about that at length already.
"Demands more skill from X player" does not automatically make a mechanic more fun or interesting.
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EPT
