EPTThe only reason you might think it needs a buff is if you're never buying the item because either you're always following your cookie-cutter item choices or are vastly underrating the item in the situations where it's actually good.
General Discussion - Page 3617
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
The only reason you might think it needs a buff is if you're never buying the item because either you're always following your cookie-cutter item choices or are vastly underrating the item in the situations where it's actually good. | ||
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
On August 17 2013 03:08 Daozzt wrote: Man this discussion never ends. Vanguard will block about ~300 or more dmg in a teamfight on Viper which is pretty significant so it's a decent item on him. Mek is fine but if you have a dark seer, enigma, etc. on your team, they should be building mek instead of Viper. I think people are heavily undervaluing the damage block. It's pretty good even though it's halved on ranged. Wat? 5 armor is better than damage block most of the time. Plus 2 more from the activate. Mek gives 5 more strength so 95 more HP than vanguard if you get the active off. The morale isn't really that you MUST get mek its that you should NEVER get vanguard and if you feel desperate for HP a mek is probably just better. PS: 300 dmg block would be from 15 attacks. Assuming viper has ~1200 hp in a teamfight either after mek or with a vanguard, at the point he has a vanguard I'd assume most attacks would average 100 dmg. That would imply that there is 0 magic damage flying around at that point. Even in that case, the armor is more damage reduction than the block. (5 armor is 30% ehp increase, 23% flat dmg reduction if you start at 0. 20 dmg block is 20% if we assume 100 dmg per attack). | ||
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Daozzt
United States1263 Posts
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
If you are, say, a kunkka, i still don't like the vanguard but it DOES let you jungle farm a bit and dive towers like a man better than a mek would and especially better than any parts of your natural item progression generally would. E: typox2 | ||
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RoyGBiv_13
United States1275 Posts
On August 17 2013 03:08 TheYango wrote: The item is fine. There are a lot of heroes that consider it situationally, but nobody who buys it as a core item choice. This is true for a lot of items, not just Vanguard. I don't see why it needs a buff. The only reason you might think it needs a buff is if you're never buying the item because either you're always following your cookie-cutter item choices or are vastly underrating the item in the situations where it's actually good. Yango, often you talk about situational vangaurd being viable, but I have yet to run into such a situation.I don't think its that I am not going against teams that push early. I think its that at best, vangaurd is a "don't lose right now" item, not a "win the game eventually" item. + Show Spoiler + Maybe I just don't play the heroes that get it, even situationally..+ Show Spoiler + my solution is to add a small amount of damage, but give it a recipe. Give it a similar place as helm of dominator without making it universal | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 17 2013 03:24 Sn0_Man wrote: Sure but you are equally or more immortal with a mek or a point booster + ogre club on the way to an aghs. At the cost of some regen and jungling capability (rofl). And with the mek your teammates are too. If you are so far ahead early game the mek lets your whole team snowball from your advantage. Its broke as balls. If you are, say, a kunkka, i still don't like the vanguard but it DOES let you jungle farm a bit and dive towers like a man better than a mek would and especially better than any parts of your natural item progression generally would. E: typox2 People often forget the passive buff that Mek provides, including the regen and armor. When it comes to pushes, it is the best out there next to Sven’s “E”, which is so cheap it might as well be free. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On August 17 2013 03:24 RoyGBiv_13 wrote: Yango, often you talk about situational vangaurd being viable, but I have yet to run into such a situation.I don't think its that I am not going against teams that push early. I think its that at best, vangaurd is a "don't lose right now" item, not a "win the game eventually" item. + Show Spoiler + Maybe I just don't play the heroes that get it, even situationally... That describes most of the use cases, yes. Say you are playing Axe with a PL on the other team. There's no way your mana will support Mek once he gets Diffusal, and the high effectiveness of damage block against PL illusions is extraordinarily useful in this case, given how Axe's kit works. Vanguard would be a decent option to consider here. | ||
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Yoshi-
Germany10227 Posts
On August 17 2013 03:14 Sn0_Man wrote: Wat? 5 armor is better than damage block most of the time. Plus 2 more from the activate. Mek gives 5 more strength so 75 more HP than vanguard if you get the active off. The morale isn't really that you MUST get mek its that you should NEVER get vanguard and if you feel desperate for HP a mek is probably just better. PS: 300 dmg block would be from 15 attacks. Assuming viper has ~1200 hp in a teamfight either after mek or with a vanguard, at the point he has a vanguard I'd assume most attacks would average 100 dmg. That would imply that there is 0 magic damage flying around at that point. Even in that case, the armor is more damage reduction than the block. (5 armor is 30% ehp increase, 23% flat dmg reduction if you start at 0. 20 dmg block is 20% if we assume 100 dmg per attack). Funny how you are cherry picking, http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=(100-20) * (1-( 0.06 * x) / (1 + 0.06 * x)) = (100) * (1-( 0.06 * (x+5)) / (1 + 0.06 * (x+5))) from 0<x<10 If you have more than 3.333 armor, -20 damage reduction is more efficient than +5 armor(assuming 100 damage) And yea imo both mek and vanguard aren't first choice for viper, but if I were forced to go either I would prefer vanguard. | ||
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
I always just farm the hero but that could be wrong. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On August 17 2013 03:29 Sn0_Man wrote: You know, I think I could see a vanguard ganking riki if that is what your lineup was about. Even then I think drums may be better but if your only concern is being able to tower dive or something... I always just farm the hero but that could be wrong. Urn of Shadows On August 17 2013 03:29 Yoshi- wrote: And yea like imo both mek and vanguard are terrible on viper, but if I were forced to go either I would prefer vanguard. what | ||
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Daozzt
United States1263 Posts
On August 17 2013 03:24 Sn0_Man wrote: Sure but you are equally or more immortal with a mek or a point booster + ogre club on the way to an aghs. At the cost of some regen and jungling capability (rofl). And with the mek your teammates are too. If you are so far ahead early game the mek lets your whole team snowball from your advantage. Its broke as balls. If you are, say, a kunkka, i still don't like the vanguard but it DOES let you jungle farm a bit and dive towers like a man better than a mek would and especially better than any parts of your natural item progression generally would. E: typox2 Good lord, if you're even slightly hinting that vanguard has more uses on Kunkka than Viper I don't even know what to tell you. | ||
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
On August 17 2013 03:29 Yoshi- wrote: If you have more than 3.333 armor, -20 damage reduction is more efficient than +5 armor(assuming 100 damage) K then add 2 armor from the active and an extra 95 pure hp from the strength. Plus armor from the 5 agi etc, iunno. And we are utterly disregarding team. | ||
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Gheizen64
Italy2077 Posts
http://dotabuff.com/matches/276638199 Is this normal? This game had an early abandon, then i left the game open and went doing other things, while pugna didn't leave, and now the game appear in dotabuff. If every early abandonement game get registered is pretty shitty. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
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Comeh
United States18919 Posts
On August 17 2013 03:32 Daozzt wrote: Good lord, if you're even slightly hinting that vanguard has more uses on Kunkka than Viper I don't even know what to tell you. I would probably rather get a vanguard on kunkka than I would on viper. Vanguard is just a joke on viper. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
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Kipsate
Netherlands45349 Posts
gotta run that Storm Spirit Vanguard. | ||
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Comeh
United States18919 Posts
On August 17 2013 03:36 Numy wrote: You all have one assist. I can only assume there was a kill before the abandonment. If that happens then starts are recorded. It clearly says when no stats are recorded. Well, he also might have gotten if after the game was "not counted". | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On August 17 2013 03:37 Comeh wrote: Well, he also might have gotten if after the game was "not counted". Yea could be. Just seems weird if it's in his ingame history then it must have been prior. Unless he's only looking at dota buff which in that case he shouldn't worry about. | ||
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Daozzt
United States1263 Posts
On August 17 2013 03:36 Comeh wrote: I would probably rather get a vanguard on kunkka than I would on viper. Vanguard is just a joke on viper. The difference is that Kunkka needs damage to be useful. Viper relies completely on tankiness/hp to be useful because all his damage comes from nethertoxin/corrosive/ult. Therefore vanguard is decent on him in some situations. What are people not understanding? I'm done arguing this topic. | ||
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