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General Discussion - Page 3616
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 17 2013 02:44 Sn0_Man wrote: It provides more except at the cost of some mana (not usually an issue for viper) and ~150g more overall price. The 5 armor is better than 10 or 20 damage block, the heal is the same amount of HP as a vanguard provides, plus the 5 all-stats are useful and give you a higher HP total once you add the heal. Its not remotely close to a sacrifice to opt for mek over vanguard. Vanguard is simply no longer a good item in comparison to many, many other options. This argument will be used in every game where I have a new player who goes for it. Along with the "Any guide that has you rushing Bloodstone is bad and you should stop using it". | ||
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gaymon
Germany1023 Posts
On August 17 2013 02:44 Sn0_Man wrote: It provides more except at the cost of some mana (not usually an issue for viper) and ~150g more overall price. The 5 armor is better than 10 or 20 damage block, the heal is the same amount of HP as a vanguard provides, plus the 5 all-stats are useful and give you a higher HP total once you add the heal. Its not remotely close to a sacrifice to opt for mek over vanguard. Vanguard is simply no longer a good item in comparison to many, many other options. Although your statement is true Vanguard provides 20/40 damage block  | ||
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Yoshi-
Germany10227 Posts
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Comeh
United States18919 Posts
On August 17 2013 02:40 Plansix wrote: Real question: Mek vs Vangard in the world of personal protection, how much less does the MEK provide for the cost of the massive team heal? Its worth noting that Vanguard really doesn't give much at all for a ranged hero. Mek is always better. On August 17 2013 02:49 Yoshi- wrote: Why would you compare vanguard to mek, that makes pretty much no sense. For those Vipers that build Vanguard. | ||
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
On August 17 2013 02:49 Yoshi- wrote: Why would you compare vanguard to mek, that makes pretty much no sense. It makes great sense. Any time a ranged hero would like a vanguard, for 153 more gold he could have a mek which is better IN EVERY SENSE. Except mana. I hate having to go mek on axe because of axe's mana issues. | ||
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Yoshi-
Germany10227 Posts
Moreover, the good thing about mek is that you don't need to carry it, but can still have the same effect, so why should viper buy the mek when you could also spent that money on a real item, while someone who is more suitable(and also has the mana) goes for mek. | ||
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jrkirby
United States1510 Posts
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Yoshi-
Germany10227 Posts
http://www.playdota.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21493 | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On August 17 2013 02:46 Numy wrote: Only time you should buy Vanguard is when you accidentally make it while buying items for your bloodstone Have Stout + Vit Booster, try to buy Hood from side shop, makes Vanguard even though I tried to buy completed Hood in one go. | ||
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
Buying a mek yourself not only greatly enhances your teams ability to fight if necessary, it also outperforms a vanguard in EVERY RELEVANT SITUATION and free's up gold on your supports. By the time your supports would be getting a mek, your vanguard would be approaching irrelevance anyway. Possible exceptions against heroes that burn your mana a lot or on heroes that are wildly mana starved. Obviously if you have a chen or darkseer on your team then let them get the mek. Note that mek on darkseer is in replacement of his "recommended" vanguard, which is awful on him for reasons previously mentioned. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On August 17 2013 02:58 jrkirby wrote: Is the vanguard damage block (or other shields for that matter) before or after armor damage reduction? Note however, that damage block is applied AFTER the Illusion % damage reduction. Consequently, damage block ends up being quite effective vs. Illusion heroes. Combined with the fact that Illusion heroes with Diffusal tend to strain your mana with regard to being able to use Mek, this is actually a specific scenario where Vanguard ends up being quite good. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 17 2013 02:49 Yoshi- wrote: Why would you compare vanguard to mek, that makes pretty much no sense. New players build it on DS because they think it makes them tanky and provides regen. Same with bristle back and a bunch of other “meaty” heroes that soak up punishment. To a new player, it looks like a shield, is built from a shield and numbers pop out of them showing the shots that missed. You need to combat this with math showing that mek is just better. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On August 17 2013 02:58 TheYango wrote: Have Stout + Vit Booster, try to buy Hood from side shop, makes Vanguard even though I tried to buy completed Hood in one go. Is that when you instantly sell and hope no one wonders where your items went to. | ||
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jrkirby
United States1510 Posts
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
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Mataza
Germany5364 Posts
On August 17 2013 02:54 Yoshi- wrote: Well, you build vanguard on a hero, because you expect that the enemy focus you, so if you use mek instead of vanguard, you will often end up with only using mek for youself, and that not really optimal. Moreover, the good thing about mek is that you don't need to carry it, but can still have the same effect, so why should viper buy the mek when you could also spent that money on a real item, while someone who is more suitable(and also has the mana) goes for mek. Using mek only for yourself isn't really a problem? Mek is more of a real item than vanguard. Also you must confuse mekansm for an aura item like vanguard, because its self stats are decent. The only drawbacks are the mana requirement and that multiple meks don't stack. I haven't played viper for a while, though I probably wouldn't buy either, and instead just get a vitbooster/pointbooster on viper. Point is that vanguard is terrible and worse than mek on all heroes except those that are mana starved. | ||
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
On August 17 2013 03:04 jrkirby wrote: So, when is vanguard gonna get a buff, eh? Honestly all I want is disassemblable vanguard  It would make vanguard AM a viable "catch up" build on the way to bfury and basically allow him to jungle much earlier (though slower). It would make vanguard axe fine (turn it into heart and pipe later) It would make vanguard weaver fine too (heart + linkens) though heavily situational. And i'm sure a bunch of other good things too | ||
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Yoshi-
Germany10227 Posts
On August 17 2013 03:00 Sn0_Man wrote: Buying a mek yourself not only greatly enhances your teams ability to fight if necessary, it also outperforms a vanguard in EVERY RELEVANT SITUATION and free's up gold on your supports. By the time your supports would be getting a mek, your vanguard would be approaching irrelevance anyway. Vanguard is cheaper, gives the same hp, doesn't require mana, it works while chainstunned, doesn't get disabled by stuff like AA ulties and gives a higher passive regen. Dunno how you could come to the conclusion that it is better in every relevant situation, when mek may only have a very small advantage. And like I said if you have another hero that could go mek, you should rather save your gold and go for something different. | ||
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Daozzt
United States1263 Posts
I think people are heavily undervaluing the damage block. It's pretty good even though it's halved on ranged. | ||
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