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On August 17 2013 04:36 gaymon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2013 04:26 TheYango wrote:
Mana is the main issue. Unless you are really fed and gaining levels quickly, it's too late in the game for you to want Mek by the time Bristle can afford to use one. Because of this, Hood->later Pipe is generally smoother for Bristle. A level 8 Bristle with Mekansm (which is pretty early tbh) and Stick (even excluding the possibility of treadswitching, which most good players will before using mek) will have 540 Mana; combine that with at least one pair of manaboots by that moment and you will easily be able to use Mekansm (unless you are playing against manaburners, but thats rarely the case and if; the enemies arent too likely to use manaburn on you anyways)
No real point talking about what his max mana is when bristle spams like a crack whore. Have to factor in his average mana usage as well.
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On August 17 2013 04:41 GtC wrote:
Wait, I thought you can only cast orbs on ethereal targets. It works both ways?
If you're ethereal yourself, you can still attack by manually casting your orb. You cannot attack ethereal targets orb or no orb.
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On August 17 2013 04:43 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2013 04:36 gaymon wrote:On August 17 2013 04:26 TheYango wrote:
Mana is the main issue. Unless you are really fed and gaining levels quickly, it's too late in the game for you to want Mek by the time Bristle can afford to use one. Because of this, Hood->later Pipe is generally smoother for Bristle. A level 8 Bristle with Mekansm (which is pretty early tbh) and Stick (even excluding the possibility of treadswitching, which most good players will before using mek) will have 540 Mana; combine that with at least one pair of manaboots by that moment and you will easily be able to use Mekansm (unless you are playing against manaburners, but thats rarely the case and if; the enemies arent too likely to use manaburn on you anyways) No real point talking about what his max mana is when bristle spams like a crack whore. Have to factor in his average mana usage as well.
You are able to use ~20 spells + Mek in a fight considering stick and treads, with manaboots and a basi even more
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Bristle outspends lvl 1 lesh ult as soon as he has 2 spells to cast.
He *can* outspend level 2 lesh ult but that requires hitting every cooldown perfectly which kinda ends up in few/no autoattacks which are a lot of his dmg.
Either way, that is a LOT of mana being drained.
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France29748 Posts
On August 17 2013 04:41 GtC wrote:
Wait, I thought you can only cast orbs on ethereal targets. It works both ways?
You can't cast orb on ethereal I think, but you can (manually only) cast orbs while ethereal.
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Ok. For some reason I was always under the opposite impression (you can tell I don't use the item very much). Thanks for all the help!
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On August 17 2013 04:45 Sn0_Man wrote:
Bristle outspends lvl 1 lesh ult as soon as he has 2 spells to cast.
He *can* outspend level 2 lesh ult but that requires hitting every cooldown perfectly which kinda ends up in few/no autoattacks which are a lot of his dmg.
Either way, that is a LOT of mana being drained.
Fun fact, OD made his debut as a competitive hero when BB was the de facto first pick, OD babysit.
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Sounds like a classic "bad pub combo". That admittedly I lost to yesterday, but there were a lot of other factors in that lol.
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Mekansm vs Vanguard
Cost:
Mekansm: 2306 gold
Vanguard: 2225 gold
Vanguard is 81 gold cheaper, but Mekansm builds from slightly cheaper items. Vanguard requires secret shop, but Mekansm requires recipes.
Regen:
Mekansm: 4hp/s aura
Vanguard: 6hp/s
Vanguard is 50% more straight up regen, but Mekansm has an aura which helps your teammates.
Damage Block:
Mekansm: 5 armor + 2 on active
Vanguard: 70% damage block, 40 for melee heroes, 20 for ranged heroes
Vanguard blocks on average 25 damage for melee, 13 damage for ranged, per attack (pseudo random ~60% chance of block).
Mekanism 5-7 armor blocks around an additional ~15%-20% damage for all physical damage. So if your opponents are doing >70-80 for ranged heroes, and >140-150 for melee heroes, Mekansm blocks more damage.
As the game goes on longer, obviously average opponent damage will go up, but also self armor will increase, decreasing the additional % block from more armor (diminishing returns). But if you get no more armor, Mekansm scales much better than Vanguard. Heck, even if you are getting tons of armor, Mekansm still probably scales better over the course of the game.
Effective HP:
Mekansm: 5 str = 95 HP + 250 Hp from cast.
Vanguard: 250 HP
If you get the chance to cast and have plenty of mana, Mekansm is clearly the much better Effective HP. If you are likely to get stunlocked until death (or are just too nooby to cast), Vanguard is better Effective HP.
Other:
Mekansm: Cast can heal allies. +2 armor for allies on cast as well. +5 damage and +5 attack speed from attributes, as well as more mana (65) and mana regen (.2 mana/s) and half an armor.
Vanguard: Nothing.
Overall: if you're always by yourself, and your opponents deal under 120 damage (cause they'll be doing more later), it makes sense to get Vanguard as a melee. If you are in a team that does not have another Mekansm, Mekansm is clearly better. Another advantage to Vangaud however, is that it allows you to tank tons of creep attacks. On the other hand, with Mekanism you can still get the casual Stout Shield or Poor Mans Shield to tank creeps. Finally, Vangaurd does not protest against physical damage in spells (pretty sure it doesn't), but Mekansm does. I would not recommend Vangaurd on any ranged hero. I would recommend it on a melee hero if A) it's still early game B) You want to jungle / Expect to be tanking creep lane attacks and C) another hero on your team has / will get a Mekansm.
Also, until this write-up, I totally thought it was a Mekanism, not Mekansm.
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Hey everyone I am not sure where to post this sorry if its in the wrong place I could find a section for it. I am rather experienced and have reached a point where pubs just hold me back I would love to get into competitive series. Any groups or teams looking to make it big let me know. I mostly play a 2 solo mid. Thanks
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On August 17 2013 05:23 Dslym wrote:
Hey everyone I am not sure where to post this sorry if its in the wrong place I could find a section for it. I am rather experienced and have reached a point where pubs just hold me back I would love to get into competitive series. Any groups or teams looking to make it big let me know. I mostly play a 2 solo mid. Thanks
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=360258 is the thread you want. Either contact others who posted or make your own post. Or both.
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people talking about getting vanguard for 3 pages. RIP GD.
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On August 17 2013 03:53 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2013 03:45 evilfatsh1t wrote:
theres nothing wrong with vanguard on viper. there might be better items but there are also times where vanguard does the job quite well. viper doesnt need a damage item very early, has high move speed with phase and a strong slow+nuke. all he really lacks is survivability, and while mek is a decent choice viper doesnt have the biggest mana pool. in long drawn out fights you may find yourself out of mana quite often and a mek, while keeping you alive may also cause you to miss a kill due to lack of mana for your first skill. vanguard hood was core on viper a long time ago, as with other heroes who didnt need any item besides survivability in the early game (razor, dp, bristle). just because there are better alternatives now doesnt mean the old choices are bad But what about mek on bristle back? Or is he to much of a front line fighter for that to be a good idea? (I play a lot of random draft. Sometimes we need to make hard choices, like juggernaght being our hard carry because we don’t have other options)
You'll typically want Hood on Bristleback and only Vanguard when their magic damage is very low.
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On August 17 2013 05:27 crms wrote:
people talking about getting vanguard for 3 pages. RIP GD.
What else are we going to talk about with no tournaments in the near future? Do you have a better topic, like how Bristleback throws his snots so far? It is spit or an overhand throw?
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United States47024 Posts
I would assume he just hocks it straight out of his nose rather than throwing it or anything like that.
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Well when you put it like that, Bristleback is a really disgusting hero...
But it's an overhand throw. Duh.
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On August 17 2013 05:36 TheYango wrote:
I would assume he just hocks it straight out of his nose rather than throwing it or anything like that.
He could like, swallow his snot into his mouth, and then spit it out.
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On August 17 2013 05:36 TheYango wrote:
I would assume he just hocks it straight out of his nose rather than throwing it or anything like that.
I always assume he spat it, since he make the “horking” noise each time. A consistent snot rocket of that level just seems to unrealistic and impractical with really fine control over his nose.
Yeah, that’s right. I said, it unrealistic in dota 2.
P.S. I have taken this thread great places in the last 8 hours. Best workday ever.
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On August 17 2013 05:36 TheYango wrote:
I would assume he just hocks it straight out of his nose rather than throwing it or anything like that.
This is correct. He is basically shooting snot rockets.
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That would dilute it though. Sure he favours purity over distance.
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EPT
