General Discussion - Page 361

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Netherlands12045 Posts

April 09 2012 09:55 GMT

#7201

On April 09 2012 18:50 Yoshi- wrote:

Show nested quote +

On April 09 2012 14:59 Itsmedudeman wrote:

On April 09 2012 13:46 Dead9 wrote:

On April 09 2012 13:15 Itsmedudeman wrote:

On April 09 2012 12:26 TheYango wrote:

On April 09 2012 11:27 Itsmedudeman wrote:
Eh, I'd probably never go mek on those heroes. I think if you really want survivability on those heroes you should just go something like push staff, euls, or bkb. If you get caught in some chain stun/slow, a mek won't help you that much, and usually you can rely on someone else to get mek anyway. Hell, what's a reason NOT to go push staff EVER in ANY game on silencer and OD?

You get both. Mek->Force is the most common path of item development for OD/Silencer.

The thing is, even with Force Staff, those heroes still lack armor, HP, and HP regen. You could get armor from Shiva's but you won't get Shiva's until quite late. You have more flexibility with HP sources, but many of them don't give it to you at the value that Mek gives it to you (85 HP from the +5 all stats, plus 250 HP heal). And HP regen? You've got yourself limited to Vanguard, Hood/Pipe, and Linken's. Pipe and Linken's are even bigger commitments than Mek, and Vanguard is simply not a better buy than Mekansm for similar stats.

The attitude that a support has to be the one getting all the supportive items is somewhat silly. The sheer number of supportive items in the game has reached the point that it's simply not possible for positions 3-5 to get all of them, meaning that there is absolutely nothing wrong with 1st/2nd position carries getting many of the supportive items, because it lets the supports fill out other item choices.

Mek is one of the easier and most common support items to get. Most of the time I see OD/Silencer they end up going force > sheep, maybe silence stick and then after that you get what's necessary, but I think those two items are core regardless of the game/comp. Ofc other heroes can go support items like pugna/windrunner, but for heroes like OD/silencer that scales off items and are auto attacking machines? I'd just focus on getting a bkb.

Oh, and ofc there's always ghost sceptor.

mek is almost standard on od and silencer
they need the hp regen a lot of the time, the manacost isn't an issue, and it's pretty much the equivalent of a vanguard for their entire team
supports can buy a mek but it'll be really late because they don't get much farm

Well, I can honestly say I've never seen a carry silencer/OD with mek.

Everytime i see an OD by a good team, i also see an Mek on OD

well silencer is really rare but OD could get mek after forcestaff to buff the push power if he has room to farm while others supports doesnt. This is often seen in games with minimum kill numbers (less than 1 kill per min) and mostly positioning war between 2 teams which make supports very under level and carry farmed.

TheYango

United States47024 Posts

April 09 2012 09:58 GMT

#7202

On April 09 2012 18:44 NB wrote:
any veteran could teach me the item order of PL?? should i go straight rad after boot+RoH or aquila/tread/vanguard is needed? Also the alt route is still diffisual? Illusion deal orb of venom dmg?

820 playing Phantom Lancer in a pub game recently:

Some notes:
- Vanguard->Radiance is "standard", 820 feels Tranquil+PMS+Vit Booster has higher efficiency, and leaving the Vit Booster allows Heart later. Not everyone might agree though (he mentions that some players like Soul Ring, but he feels that this is inefficient).
- Diffusal is often chosen as a damage item in addition to Radiance, not necessarily as an alternate route
- In DotA 1, Orb of Venom does not work properly with illusions (Illusions place a fake OoV debuff, similar to fake bashes that don't stun or do damage). Not sure how they changed this in DotA 2.

rob.au

1087 Posts

April 09 2012 10:07 GMT

#7203

When I play support in pubs my carry basically never feeds, normally we rape the lane. The reason I hate supporting in pubs is because they fail at last hitting/farming for the rest of the game and we lose after dominating. It's just a huge let down to lose after raping.

Yoshi-

Germany10227 Posts

April 09 2012 10:08 GMT

#7204

Illusions don't fake bash anymore.

Stancel

Singapore15360 Posts

April 09 2012 10:09 GMT

#7205

On April 09 2012 18:58 TheYango wrote:

Show nested quote +

820 playing Phantom Lancer in a pub game recently:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVjGwfncd68

Some notes:
- Vanguard->Radiance is "standard", 820 feels Tranquil+PMS+Vit Booster has higher efficiency, and leaving the Vit Booster allows Heart later. Not everyone might agree though (he mentions that some players like Soul Ring, but he feels that this is inefficient).
- Diffusal is often chosen as a damage item in addition to Radiance, not necessarily as an alternate route
- In DotA 1, Orb of Venom does not work properly with illusions (Illusions place a fake OoV debuff, similar to fake bashes that don't stun or do damage). Not sure how they changed this in DotA 2.

imo Diffusal should be core on all melee image heroes, like Naga/PL

Kupon3ss

時の回廊10066 Posts

April 09 2012 10:11 GMT

#7206

Well 820's logic is sound, especially for PL, 100% -20 dmg +armor +agi + heal performs about the same if not better than 60% -40 dmg +hp regen in terms of survivability and sustainability in lane and leads to farm better progression of

after radiance + diffusal (optional)

u can split the boots to build into BoT + vlads while booster leads directly into heart

the speed of tranquil boots is quite nice since pl doesn't benefit much for either treads or phase much

cilinder007

Slovenia7251 Posts

April 09 2012 10:15 GMT

#7207

Devine Courage complete ! team was pretty mad about my items but we still won :D

Netherlands12045 Posts

April 09 2012 10:40 GMT

#7208

hmmm 3 level in stats... thats interesting but i guess it gives you the mana needed to spam lance + transquil :-/ also quelling blade bought after vitality is weird -_-...

cilinder007

Slovenia7251 Posts

April 09 2012 10:42 GMT

#7209

I guess its for faster jungling, dont understand chinese so Im not sure but that's the only reason I see

Nilrem

United States3684 Posts

April 09 2012 10:45 GMT

#7210

On April 09 2012 19:15 cilinder007 wrote:
Devine Courage complete ! team was pretty mad about my items but we still won :D

I think the items could have been worse

I am quite tempted to try Divine Courage. I think I may try it tomorrow and hopefully not piss off too many people. I will be going with Sd (since I only play Sd) so this will either go awesomely or it will fail completely.

konadora

Singapore66363 Posts

April 09 2012 10:50 GMT

#7211

On April 09 2012 18:35 wonderwall wrote:

Show nested quote +

Yeah its basically outpush AM as he has no push/counterpush himself or outcarry him as he's not that scary if someone is keeping up with him in rice.

How does late game silencer > am??

Yoshi-

Germany10227 Posts

April 09 2012 10:53 GMT

#7212

Pure damage + silence?

ChrisXIV

Austria3553 Posts

April 09 2012 10:58 GMT

#7213

On April 09 2012 18:25 NB wrote:

Show nested quote +

both of those 2 choices are pretty risky and limited used.

The best counter to AM pickers is just NS + chen/enchan+brood and push the hell outa towers end game around 25 mins. Otherwise late game pure dmg dealer such as OD(as currently see in most of the dota2 SEA games) or silencer(AL|bleek) should be great vs AM once they got sheeps.

Pushing in pubs generally doesn't work. I've been in teams with Furion+Chen+Leshrac and the only tower that went down was the mid one, and that was me.

FV and Viper are risky but OD and Silencer are not?

Spicy_Curry

United States10573 Posts

April 09 2012 11:01 GMT

#7214

On April 09 2012 19:58 ChrisXIV wrote:

Show nested quote +

silencer doesnt work in all situations because am will most likely farm much faster than you with the battlefury cleave

Netherlands12045 Posts

April 09 2012 11:11 GMT

#7215

On April 09 2012 20:01 Spicy_Curry wrote:

Show nested quote +

silencer doesnt work in all situations because am will most likely farm much faster than you with the battlefury cleave

there are 2 ways to play AM: 15 mins BFury into 35 mins 6 slots OR vanguard vlad into 25 mins manta basher. The first build is mostly seen in pub bc you have more room to farm and no one push, the 2nd build however is used for competitive play simply bc AM is much more useful mid game and could enter teamfight, hit people and still alive. The pure dmg dealer is mostly aimed to counter the 2nd type since if you let silencer/OD lane in a free farm lane, they could get their core pretty fast (tread+forcestaff) and start destroying people in teamfights while AM is still building his vlad.

Erasme

Bahamas15899 Posts

April 09 2012 11:37 GMT

#7216

DS gives the easiest shackles in the world

Dead9

United States4725 Posts

April 09 2012 11:55 GMT

#7217

silencer is awful against am ...
even if you somehow keep up in farm he's still going to be putting out much more damage, and his ult melts silencer
od can pretty easily outcarry am if you wanna go that route, but it's a bit harder for him to get his farm up
lycan also works pretty well, you can put a lot of pressure on the towers and necrobook is really good against am

flamewheel

FREEAGLELAND26782 Posts

April 09 2012 11:59 GMT

#7218

Additionally, if Anti-Mage gets a BKB against Silencer and uses it after Global Silence is popped he won't care at all. And then his interaction with Silencer is similar to that against Obsidian Destroyer, often touted as the 'anti Anti-Mage'. AM with BKB means glaives/arcane orbs won't hit hard, yet AM hitting a BKB'd OD/Silencer still hits damn hard.

Firebolt145

Lalalaland34503 Posts

April 09 2012 12:01 GMT

#7219

Wait what's the divine courage build? I had assumed it was just getting divine rapier on every hero but apparently I am wrong...

SKC

Brazil18828 Posts

April 09 2012 12:04 GMT

#7220

On April 09 2012 21:01 Firebolt145 wrote:
Wait what's the divine courage build? I had assumed it was just getting divine rapier on every hero but apparently I am wrong...

http://divinecourage.dy.fi/

Random hero and random items, not really a single build.

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