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If there is one thing I hate about pubs, it is how supports do not know that they should be supporting! I tell the team that I would like to jungle with Chen or Enchantress. I wait on my team in case someone ninja picks a jungler (learned my lesson from a game where I had Chen, Lycan, and Lone Druid on one team) and to see if we need a hard support (Chen) or a damage dealer/better ganker (Enchantress).
Warlock, Huskar, and Sniper is picked. Well Warlock is a pretty heavy support, and we still have someone else to pick another support. Enchantress it is! The last pick ends up being a Venomancer. Even better. I should be able to get Sheepstick and Ultimate Scepter early on and help a lot mid game. NOPE. Veno and Warlock buy nothing all early game. I have to buy the Flying Courier and first four sets of wards. After that I start telling Veno and Warlock to get wards and anti-invis. Warlock listens and gets some Sentries (although I never noticed them being used to help in teamfights)...Venomancer...well he just says "already got wards. nienienienie" What the fuck T_T So here I am, warding all game, getting an Ultimate Scepter at 35 minutes. We somehow managed to win that 60 minute game. If we wouldn't have, I would've been sooooo pissed. Oh, I didn't even finish my Sheepstick in 60 minutes either. FML
I'd love to pick supports too, but I'm still in the MMR where the thought process cannot extend beyond: 2-1-2 lanes and having 1 (or sometimes two T_T) complete rice carries. The win usually goes to the team that realizes ganking would be a pretty cool idea.
P.S. -> The Veno's first two core items were Power Treads into Vanguard.
edit: That was longer than expected. Sorry for the rant.
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On April 09 2012 13:15 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 12:26 TheYango wrote:On April 09 2012 11:27 Itsmedudeman wrote:
Eh, I'd probably never go mek on those heroes. I think if you really want survivability on those heroes you should just go something like push staff, euls, or bkb. If you get caught in some chain stun/slow, a mek won't help you that much, and usually you can rely on someone else to get mek anyway. Hell, what's a reason NOT to go push staff EVER in ANY game on silencer and OD? You get both. Mek->Force is the most common path of item development for OD/Silencer. The thing is, even with Force Staff, those heroes still lack armor, HP, and HP regen. You could get armor from Shiva's but you won't get Shiva's until quite late. You have more flexibility with HP sources, but many of them don't give it to you at the value that Mek gives it to you (85 HP from the +5 all stats, plus 250 HP heal). And HP regen? You've got yourself limited to Vanguard, Hood/Pipe, and Linken's. Pipe and Linken's are even bigger commitments than Mek, and Vanguard is simply not a better buy than Mekansm for similar stats. The attitude that a support has to be the one getting all the supportive items is somewhat silly. The sheer number of supportive items in the game has reached the point that it's simply not possible for positions 3-5 to get all of them, meaning that there is absolutely nothing wrong with 1st/2nd position carries getting many of the supportive items, because it lets the supports fill out other item choices. Mek is one of the easier and most common support items to get. Most of the time I see OD/Silencer they end up going force > sheep, maybe silence stick and then after that you get what's necessary, but I think those two items are core regardless of the game/comp. Ofc other heroes can go support items like pugna/windrunner, but for heroes like OD/silencer that scales off items and are auto attacking machines? I'd just focus on getting a bkb. Oh, and ofc there's always ghost sceptor.
mek is almost standard on od and silencer
they need the hp regen a lot of the time, the manacost isn't an issue, and it's pretty much the equivalent of a vanguard for their entire team
supports can buy a mek but it'll be really late because they don't get much farm
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The way you guys talk makes me feel like I'm the only guy who plays a supporting support in pubs :l
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On April 09 2012 14:40 Skullflower wrote:
The way you guys talk makes me feel like I'm the only guy who plays a supporting support in pubs :l
I do when I get the hero (like Dazzle or Omni). I play exclusively Sd to become acquainted with many of the heroes so it depends if I get the chance to play the hero or not.
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On April 09 2012 13:41 Whole wrote:
If there is one thing I hate about pubs, it is how supports do not know that they should be supporting! I tell the team that I would like to jungle with Chen or Enchantress. I wait on my team in case someone ninja picks a jungler (learned my lesson from a game where I had Chen, Lycan, and Lone Druid on one team) and to see if we need a hard support (Chen) or a damage dealer/better ganker (Enchantress).
Warlock, Huskar, and Sniper is picked. Well Warlock is a pretty heavy support, and we still have someone else to pick another support. Enchantress it is! The last pick ends up being a Venomancer. Even better. I should be able to get Sheepstick and Ultimate Scepter early on and help a lot mid game. NOPE. Veno and Warlock buy nothing all early game. I have to buy the Flying Courier and first four sets of wards. After that I start telling Veno and Warlock to get wards and anti-invis. Warlock listens and gets some Sentries (although I never noticed them being used to help in teamfights)...Venomancer...well he just says "already got wards. nienienienie" What the fuck T_T So here I am, warding all game, getting an Ultimate Scepter at 35 minutes. We somehow managed to win that 60 minute game. If we wouldn't have, I would've been sooooo pissed. Oh, I didn't even finish my Sheepstick in 60 minutes either. FML
I'd love to pick supports too, but I'm still in the MMR where the thought process cannot extend beyond: 2-1-2 lanes and having 1 (or sometimes two T_T) complete rice carries. The win usually goes to the team that realizes ganking would be a pretty cool idea.
P.S. -> The Veno's first two core items were Power Treads into Vanguard.
edit: That was longer than expected. Sorry for the rant.
I like it how you blame your mates for not extending their though process beyond 2 1 2 while crying about chen lycan sylla lineup, sylla is a sololane anyways and double jungle is actually really viable, especially when you have 3 STRONG pushers. Vanguard is also a buyable item on venomancer.
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On April 09 2012 13:46 Dead9 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 13:15 Itsmedudeman wrote:On April 09 2012 12:26 TheYango wrote:On April 09 2012 11:27 Itsmedudeman wrote:
Eh, I'd probably never go mek on those heroes. I think if you really want survivability on those heroes you should just go something like push staff, euls, or bkb. If you get caught in some chain stun/slow, a mek won't help you that much, and usually you can rely on someone else to get mek anyway. Hell, what's a reason NOT to go push staff EVER in ANY game on silencer and OD? You get both. Mek->Force is the most common path of item development for OD/Silencer. The thing is, even with Force Staff, those heroes still lack armor, HP, and HP regen. You could get armor from Shiva's but you won't get Shiva's until quite late. You have more flexibility with HP sources, but many of them don't give it to you at the value that Mek gives it to you (85 HP from the +5 all stats, plus 250 HP heal). And HP regen? You've got yourself limited to Vanguard, Hood/Pipe, and Linken's. Pipe and Linken's are even bigger commitments than Mek, and Vanguard is simply not a better buy than Mekansm for similar stats. The attitude that a support has to be the one getting all the supportive items is somewhat silly. The sheer number of supportive items in the game has reached the point that it's simply not possible for positions 3-5 to get all of them, meaning that there is absolutely nothing wrong with 1st/2nd position carries getting many of the supportive items, because it lets the supports fill out other item choices. Mek is one of the easier and most common support items to get. Most of the time I see OD/Silencer they end up going force > sheep, maybe silence stick and then after that you get what's necessary, but I think those two items are core regardless of the game/comp. Ofc other heroes can go support items like pugna/windrunner, but for heroes like OD/silencer that scales off items and are auto attacking machines? I'd just focus on getting a bkb. Oh, and ofc there's always ghost sceptor. mek is almost standard on od and silencer they need the hp regen a lot of the time, the manacost isn't an issue, and it's pretty much the equivalent of a vanguard for their entire team supports can buy a mek but it'll be really late because they don't get much farm
Well, I can honestly say I've never seen a carry silencer/OD with mek.
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On April 09 2012 14:59 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 13:46 Dead9 wrote:On April 09 2012 13:15 Itsmedudeman wrote:On April 09 2012 12:26 TheYango wrote:On April 09 2012 11:27 Itsmedudeman wrote:
Eh, I'd probably never go mek on those heroes. I think if you really want survivability on those heroes you should just go something like push staff, euls, or bkb. If you get caught in some chain stun/slow, a mek won't help you that much, and usually you can rely on someone else to get mek anyway. Hell, what's a reason NOT to go push staff EVER in ANY game on silencer and OD? You get both. Mek->Force is the most common path of item development for OD/Silencer. The thing is, even with Force Staff, those heroes still lack armor, HP, and HP regen. You could get armor from Shiva's but you won't get Shiva's until quite late. You have more flexibility with HP sources, but many of them don't give it to you at the value that Mek gives it to you (85 HP from the +5 all stats, plus 250 HP heal). And HP regen? You've got yourself limited to Vanguard, Hood/Pipe, and Linken's. Pipe and Linken's are even bigger commitments than Mek, and Vanguard is simply not a better buy than Mekansm for similar stats. The attitude that a support has to be the one getting all the supportive items is somewhat silly. The sheer number of supportive items in the game has reached the point that it's simply not possible for positions 3-5 to get all of them, meaning that there is absolutely nothing wrong with 1st/2nd position carries getting many of the supportive items, because it lets the supports fill out other item choices. Mek is one of the easier and most common support items to get. Most of the time I see OD/Silencer they end up going force > sheep, maybe silence stick and then after that you get what's necessary, but I think those two items are core regardless of the game/comp. Ofc other heroes can go support items like pugna/windrunner, but for heroes like OD/silencer that scales off items and are auto attacking machines? I'd just focus on getting a bkb. Oh, and ofc there's always ghost sceptor. mek is almost standard on od and silencer they need the hp regen a lot of the time, the manacost isn't an issue, and it's pretty much the equivalent of a vanguard for their entire team supports can buy a mek but it'll be really late because they don't get much farm Well, I can honestly say I've never seen a carry silencer/OD with mek.
I don't know how you can carry on silencer without mek he just melts without it
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im pretty sure any veteran playing in pub are mainly picking carries or super pub rape gankers. The ability to control the flow of the game helps your win % hugely. This is also explain why if you play in EU you often get 5 carries team more than US: US actually picking support bc majority of the players are very inexperience.
I only play support when i actually have a party, otherwise i either solo or jungle/carry and i have a pretty decent win rate.
Here are the heroes that you could master to easily win in pubs:
Str:
Huskar, Lycan, Tiny(depend on enemy line up), Pudge, NS, naix
Agi:
BH, Riki(sort of), Ursa (8 min rosh), Sylla (solo mid), Brood(if your team has a jungler and you can solo)
Int:
Storm, WR, furion, QoP, invoker, batrider(sort of)
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United States47024 Posts
On April 09 2012 15:13 andy186 wrote:
I don't know how you can carry on silencer without mek he just melts without it
Well, if someone else is getting Mek, you have options like Janggo, Vit Booster + Hood, or Vanguard. These all give you some mix of HP/HP regen, but these don't have quite the same effectiveness as Mek.
You need all the stats Mek gives you anyway, and you have enough mana to use the active, so there's very little reason for you to force someone else to make Mek when any other item you'd build instead is going to give you similar stats with less effectiveness.
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Lalalaland34504 Posts
Atm CM is my most played hero simply because I pick very late and end up having to play support 90% of the games. The other games I usually notice another one or two people have picked support-capable heroes and I leave it to them to do it while I play another role. Most of the time I am disappointed.
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If you genuinely believe that you are far more skilled than your teammates in a pub and are looking to win probably the easiest thing you can do to help that is take a solo/jungle lane. Laning with a Dazzle who decides that he wants all the last hits over the spectre/AM/weaver gives you brain cancer.
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On April 09 2012 14:40 Skullflower wrote:
The way you guys talk makes me feel like I'm the only guy who plays a supporting support in pubs :l
I usually play whatever I random, but supporting is terrible when solo queueing and 95% of the pubs I get want to carry/solo and fail miserably at it.
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On April 09 2012 16:08 wonderwall wrote:
If you genuinely believe that you are far more skilled than your teammates in a pub and are looking to win probably the easiest thing you can do to help that is take a solo/jungle lane. Laning with a Dazzle who decides that he wants all the last hits over the spectre/AM/weaver gives you brain cancer.
Oh man, I hate when I see that. I realize that in DotA 2, the general level and income of a team is very important. But there are times where I am thinking... why oh why would you cause the people that will actually be killing the other team to be weaker. I know when I play a hard support, I usually get some Lh's but usually focus on either denying creeps or attacking the other team.
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im, currently doing score maximization builds. Have lycan 5 bars, AA chen 4+ bars , a bunch of hard carries 4- 3+ bars -_-...
what is the secret to this sorcery?
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konadora
Singapore66364 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/41jp1.jpg)
o_O
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On April 09 2012 11:54 Firebolt145 wrote:
So lets say you're in a pub and the opponent gets AM, and the player appears to be quite competent with his supports actually supporting him. What heroes do you pick to try and counter him?
1) Faceless Void
I normally just outcarry AM with him, and since most players don't go for any survivability on AM and have items like Vlad's and BF he just melts when you catch him in your ulti.
2) Viper
You want to face AM in lane, so he gets 0 farm.
On playing support: I've tried it a few times. Will never play support ever again in pubs, unless I know the carry player is good. When I see Juggernaut with only his starting boots after 10 minutes, or Spectre going 0-5 in 5 minutes, I don't see why I should support them.
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On April 09 2012 17:25 ChrisXIV wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 11:54 Firebolt145 wrote:
So lets say you're in a pub and the opponent gets AM, and the player appears to be quite competent with his supports actually supporting him. What heroes do you pick to try and counter him? 1) Faceless Void I normally just outcarry AM with him, and since most players don't go for any survivability on AM and have items like Vlad's and BF he just melts when you catch him in your ulti. 2) Viper You want to face AM in lane, so he gets 0 farm. On playing support: I've tried it a few times. Will never play support ever again in pubs, unless I know the carry player is good. When I see Juggernaut with only his starting boots after 10 minutes, or Spectre going 0-5 in 5 minutes, I don't see why I should support them.
both of those 2 choices are pretty risky and limited used.
The best counter to AM pickers is just NS + chen/enchan+brood and push the hell outa towers end game around 25 mins. Otherwise late game pure dmg dealer such as OD(as currently see in most of the dota2 SEA games) or silencer(AL|bleek) should be great vs AM once they got sheeps.
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The best counter to AM pickers is just NS + chen/enchan+brood and push the hell outa towers end game around 25 mins. Otherwise late game pure dmg dealer such as OD(as currently see in most of the dota2 SEA games) or silencer(AL|bleek) should be great vs AM once they got sheeps.
Yeah its basically outpush AM as he has no push/counterpush himself or outcarry him as he's not that scary if someone is keeping up with him in rice.
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any veteran could teach me the item order of PL?? should i go straight rad after boot+RoH or aquila/tread/vanguard is needed? Also the alt route is still diffisual? Illusion deal orb of venom dmg?
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On April 09 2012 14:59 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 13:46 Dead9 wrote:On April 09 2012 13:15 Itsmedudeman wrote:On April 09 2012 12:26 TheYango wrote:On April 09 2012 11:27 Itsmedudeman wrote:
Eh, I'd probably never go mek on those heroes. I think if you really want survivability on those heroes you should just go something like push staff, euls, or bkb. If you get caught in some chain stun/slow, a mek won't help you that much, and usually you can rely on someone else to get mek anyway. Hell, what's a reason NOT to go push staff EVER in ANY game on silencer and OD? You get both. Mek->Force is the most common path of item development for OD/Silencer. The thing is, even with Force Staff, those heroes still lack armor, HP, and HP regen. You could get armor from Shiva's but you won't get Shiva's until quite late. You have more flexibility with HP sources, but many of them don't give it to you at the value that Mek gives it to you (85 HP from the +5 all stats, plus 250 HP heal). And HP regen? You've got yourself limited to Vanguard, Hood/Pipe, and Linken's. Pipe and Linken's are even bigger commitments than Mek, and Vanguard is simply not a better buy than Mekansm for similar stats. The attitude that a support has to be the one getting all the supportive items is somewhat silly. The sheer number of supportive items in the game has reached the point that it's simply not possible for positions 3-5 to get all of them, meaning that there is absolutely nothing wrong with 1st/2nd position carries getting many of the supportive items, because it lets the supports fill out other item choices. Mek is one of the easier and most common support items to get. Most of the time I see OD/Silencer they end up going force > sheep, maybe silence stick and then after that you get what's necessary, but I think those two items are core regardless of the game/comp. Ofc other heroes can go support items like pugna/windrunner, but for heroes like OD/silencer that scales off items and are auto attacking machines? I'd just focus on getting a bkb. Oh, and ofc there's always ghost sceptor. mek is almost standard on od and silencer they need the hp regen a lot of the time, the manacost isn't an issue, and it's pretty much the equivalent of a vanguard for their entire team supports can buy a mek but it'll be really late because they don't get much farm Well, I can honestly say I've never seen a carry silencer/OD with mek.
Everytime i see an OD by a good team, i also see an Mek on OD
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EPT
