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On June 11 2013 00:10 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 23:59 teapoted wrote:On June 10 2013 23:54 Qbek wrote:
See guy, dota is a game of knowledge and decision making, not clicking fast(it matters on some heroes, but no nearly as much as in other competitive games). Shop reduces the amount of clicks required, fair game. Most UI improvements give you info. Info makes the game easier. Now, you can see 2 things on the Ui that you couldn't in dota1, that is ally mana and ulti cd (visible in the scoreboard in dota1, super awkward to use). Both of those would be known to you with perfect communication in your team. How about that People will complain about the things not implemented as making the game easier but are fine with the ones in the game because they realize after a year of playing with them that it isn't that big of a deal. The dead horse has been beaten, but that argument is crap. I mean, ask LoL players how big of a deal denying is, you get used to any change unless it's big enough to make you stop playing the game. If denying was removed from Dota, people would be pissed off about it, but unless it was changed back, it's not like people would still talk about it a year or two down the line.
If denying was removed, you don't think people would leave dota or talk about it in a year? I think most would be absolutely furious and lose a lot of faith in icefrog.
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I miss the old stats symbols.
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United Kingdom24425 Posts
On June 11 2013 00:10 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 23:59 teapoted wrote:On June 10 2013 23:54 Qbek wrote:
See guy, dota is a game of knowledge and decision making, not clicking fast(it matters on some heroes, but no nearly as much as in other competitive games). Shop reduces the amount of clicks required, fair game. Most UI improvements give you info. Info makes the game easier. Now, you can see 2 things on the Ui that you couldn't in dota1, that is ally mana and ulti cd (visible in the scoreboard in dota1, super awkward to use). Both of those would be known to you with perfect communication in your team. How about that People will complain about the things not implemented as making the game easier but are fine with the ones in the game because they realize after a year of playing with them that it isn't that big of a deal. The dead horse has been beaten, but that argument is crap. I mean, ask LoL players how big of a deal denying is, you get used to any change unless it's big enough to make you stop playing the game. If denying was removed from Dota, people would be pissed off about it, but unless it was changed back, it's not like people would still talk about it a year or two down the line. If denying was removed people would be talking about it a year later.
Either way your comparison is dumb because I'm referring to non-mechanical changes which help people play the game rather than actually changing the game. As is the case with most UI changes all they do is add more for the beginners and do very little for the high level. Not the same as changing how the actual game is played.
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On June 11 2013 00:01 Firebolt145 wrote:
Kunkka can cast Torrent when he's out of vision range before walking in to avoid you seeing his cast animation. If his blue bar were to suddenly drop, there's no way you can hide that.
Whatever else you guys suggest, enemy mana bars are simply too big of a change.
I already said, I'm not advocating for this particular change or any other, but I don't agree with what you are saying here.
A) Enemy mana bars never felt dumb or "too big a change". I never saw "oh his mana dropped he must have cast a spell" in HoN. People still clue off of animations. Yes, there was a lot of "Oh hes oom we can fight" which in Dota is only available through clicking on somebody. Yes, I think that clicking on somebody like that raises the "skill cap" and is probably a good thing.
B) It is still true that if you can see his mana drop you can see the cast animation. "Oh he cast it out of vision range" so then you didn't see the mana drop either. I'm gonna go with people good enough to notice will also notice a kunkka charging at them full steam, and people bad enough to let a kunkka charge at them full steam who was recently out of vision won't even notice the mana drop. I mean, we are talking like a half second window to notice, decide, and get out. And that is if the kunkka is masterful at casting juuuuust out of vision range. I know I have enough issues dodging torrents that are telegraphed and everything.
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On June 11 2013 00:13 BlitzerSC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 00:02 Tsutchie wrote:On June 10 2013 23:59 teapoted wrote:On June 10 2013 23:54 Qbek wrote:
See guy, dota is a game of knowledge and decision making, not clicking fast(it matters on some heroes, but no nearly as much as in other competitive games). Shop reduces the amount of clicks required, fair game. Most UI improvements give you info. Info makes the game easier. Now, you can see 2 things on the Ui that you couldn't in dota1, that is ally mana and ulti cd (visible in the scoreboard in dota1, super awkward to use). Both of those would be known to you with perfect communication in your team. How about that People will complain about the things not implemented as making the game easier but are fine with the ones in the game because they realize after a year of playing with them that it isn't that big of a deal. im just imagining pudge hook being changed into homing... there'd be riots on the streets! Why not ? I mean Pudge has tons of bugs that still aren't fixed, might as well give him a homing hook. It's not like it will change much anyways since the hook speed is higher than it's supposed to be and it's hard as fuck to dodge.. btw, talking about bugs: http://dev.dota2.com/showthread.php?t=91883uguh, it's not "that" big of a deal but it's still sad that bugs like this still exists.
Making pudges hook homing might not change much in regards to dodging it, which is indeed hard to do.. but players would stop missing it, which is a massive deal.
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United States47024 Posts
On June 11 2013 00:14 teapoted wrote:
Either way your comparison is dumb because I'm referring to non-mechanical changes which help people play the game rather than actually changing the game.
Then could you provide some more concrete examples? So far catching up on the discussion, the only two things I've seen you suggest are managing screen real estate and "displaying health and mana" (which people convoluted to mean you wanted to display enemy mana bars). You're making this discussion hard for yourself by being so abstract when the discussion is more likely to move forward if you make clear, concrete examples of what you'd change.
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On June 11 2013 00:14 teapoted wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 00:10 Tobberoth wrote:On June 10 2013 23:59 teapoted wrote:On June 10 2013 23:54 Qbek wrote:
See guy, dota is a game of knowledge and decision making, not clicking fast(it matters on some heroes, but no nearly as much as in other competitive games). Shop reduces the amount of clicks required, fair game. Most UI improvements give you info. Info makes the game easier. Now, you can see 2 things on the Ui that you couldn't in dota1, that is ally mana and ulti cd (visible in the scoreboard in dota1, super awkward to use). Both of those would be known to you with perfect communication in your team. How about that People will complain about the things not implemented as making the game easier but are fine with the ones in the game because they realize after a year of playing with them that it isn't that big of a deal. The dead horse has been beaten, but that argument is crap. I mean, ask LoL players how big of a deal denying is, you get used to any change unless it's big enough to make you stop playing the game. If denying was removed from Dota, people would be pissed off about it, but unless it was changed back, it's not like people would still talk about it a year or two down the line. If denying was removed people would be talking about it a year later. Either way your comparison is dumb because I'm referring to non-mechanical changes which help people play the game rather than actually changing the game. As is the case with most UI changes all they do is add more for the beginners and do very little for the high level. Not the same as changing how the actual game is played.
How is it not changing how the game is played? The courier control added in dota 2 doesn't change how you play the game? Having your enemies mana supplied for you without doing anything doesn't change how you play the game?
We can debate forever how big of a deal it is and how good/bad it is, but how can you honestly claim it doesn't change how the game is played?
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On June 11 2013 00:13 Testuser wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 00:10 Tobberoth wrote:On June 10 2013 23:59 teapoted wrote:On June 10 2013 23:54 Qbek wrote:
See guy, dota is a game of knowledge and decision making, not clicking fast(it matters on some heroes, but no nearly as much as in other competitive games). Shop reduces the amount of clicks required, fair game. Most UI improvements give you info. Info makes the game easier. Now, you can see 2 things on the Ui that you couldn't in dota1, that is ally mana and ulti cd (visible in the scoreboard in dota1, super awkward to use). Both of those would be known to you with perfect communication in your team. How about that People will complain about the things not implemented as making the game easier but are fine with the ones in the game because they realize after a year of playing with them that it isn't that big of a deal. The dead horse has been beaten, but that argument is crap. I mean, ask LoL players how big of a deal denying is, you get used to any change unless it's big enough to make you stop playing the game. If denying was removed from Dota, people would be pissed off about it, but unless it was changed back, it's not like people would still talk about it a year or two down the line. If denying was removed, you don't think people would leave dota or talk about it in a year? I think most would be absolutely furious and lose a lot of faith in icefrog.
Denying is a key part of Dota 2 and making all heroes interesting and fun to play. Some Supports get almost no gold in the game and simply provide zoning for the carry and focus on denying, pulling and stacking. Without denying, supports would lose one of the key ways they interact with the enemy team.
I can't ever see it being removed. It is counter intuitive as all hell, and make little sense to a new player. But that goes for everything in Dota 2, really.
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United States47024 Posts
Courier control in DotA 2 still doesn't have "resume last delivery" like DotA 1 did, which is a huge wtf to me.
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United Kingdom24425 Posts
On June 11 2013 00:16 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 00:14 teapoted wrote:
Either way your comparison is dumb because I'm referring to non-mechanical changes which help people play the game rather than actually changing the game. Then could you provide some more concrete examples? So far catching up on the discussion, the only two things I've seen you suggest are managing screen real estate and "displaying health and mana" (which people convoluted to mean you wanted to display enemy mana bars). You're making this discussion hard for yourself by being so abstract when the discussion is more likely to move forward if you make clear, concrete examples of what you'd change. Read my original post where I give examples but also say why giving examples isn't necessary for wanting more flexibility to the designers.
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On June 11 2013 00:12 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 16:48 ETisME wrote:On June 10 2013 15:04 Kraznaya wrote:On June 10 2013 12:46 ETisME wrote:
does anyone think the UI is extremely poorly designed?
I really hate that top bar especially, I feel like it is way too large for the info that it gives. I constantly feel like my vision is blocked by it
not saying it should be ditched completely but maybe at least they can make those hero icons smaller and use something else to show who's ulti is up?
Another is the mana bar of the opponent. in HoN, there is customised UI and one of them (or the original) allows you to show the opponent current mana. I feel that it is an extremely useful info just to have on the screen rather than having to click to check. It's especially important for heroes like anti mage to check whether the heroes have maga for spells or deal bonus damage for the mana burn.
There was also a plug in to show your current item/buff/debuff on your hero. It is a small time bar with the icon of the skill/item at the back and a timer to show how long the duration is. I think the current one in Dota 2 is too small to check and the exact time figure is interesting because there are numerous games where you barely escape by TP scroll at the last 0.x seconds. if they changed the UI people would complain for weeks because its always harder to adjust to something youre not used to I am by no means asking to change a lot. what I want is somthing similar to what I found on google just now: http://i54.tinypic.com/nz5bh4.jpgThose two squares removed are completely useless and we could have more space for visions. I love to have more rooms for vision and just feel less cluster when there are so much more space that could be used for vision. and maybe make those hero icon at top bar smaller along with the ulti green square removed and have another way to show that the hero has the ulti ready. while keeping the clock as big (so that you still have the critical info but without the flatness (linear) feel of the top bar and also provide more vision) the only problem is how it affects balance i suppose Dunno, maybe it's just me. I have only played 100 games so far and so I haven't got to the stage where I can say "that's how it has always been". I have only picked up dota recently again (used to play dota 1 almost every day for 5 years lol) and just thought those bars are kinda annoying and I really want to zoom in to look around more stuff because it is such a nice game to zoom in to look at. Did anyone else find it funny that this screenshot was just one from earlier beta?
but it wasn't
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United States47024 Posts
On June 11 2013 00:19 teapoted wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 00:16 TheYango wrote:On June 11 2013 00:14 teapoted wrote:
Either way your comparison is dumb because I'm referring to non-mechanical changes which help people play the game rather than actually changing the game. Then could you provide some more concrete examples? So far catching up on the discussion, the only two things I've seen you suggest are managing screen real estate and "displaying health and mana" (which people convoluted to mean you wanted to display enemy mana bars). You're making this discussion hard for yourself by being so abstract when the discussion is more likely to move forward if you make clear, concrete examples of what you'd change. Read my original post where I give examples but also say why giving examples isn't necessary for wanting more flexibility to the designers.
This one?
On June 10 2013 19:00 teapoted wrote:
Ultimate notification is fine, it shouldn't be something visible on the hero model because not every hero has ravage. It's just another spell.
As for the rest, yes the UI is terrible. And it isn't going to change.
As a Dota 1 purist but at the same time designer I've said since day 1 that they should have dumped the WC3 UI. It simply isn't as important as people think it is to keep the same UI and you can always give people the option to use a classic UI. People talk about 'well they wouldn't use a classic then' because it's a lower field of view, but this isn't an FPS game, you're not getting any more information out of it you're just getting convenience. And people who think it will effect the balance of the game are just crazy, it would make people into better players maybe, but it's still the same game, you can still gather the same information, it's just slightly easier to gather the information.
And I'm not too fuzzed about minor things in the old UI I'd just like something where the developers at Valve can experiment. Because the only step forward from this UI is the top bar for heroes which I think is superior to what any other game does because it allows you to very quickly glance and see what the state is like without having to look at both left and right and do some analyzing over who is who which is often the case with hero portraits on the left.
The rest of the UI is just standard 10 year old stuff. If you had a blank slate there's so much you could do to make learning the game easier, to make basic mechanics smoother.
And this is not even counting the UI from a spectator stand-point. Although I wouldn't be completely surprised if we got more options in spectator mode in the future for things like hiding the entire UI, zoom out (things you can do in console), I wouldn't bet on it because they've gone this "replaceable HUD" model which is just plain silly.
I don't see any examples. I see the basic idea of "scrap the HUD", but there's absolutely nothing concrete about this. You haven't convinced anyone that whatever you could do to the HUD would be an improvement.
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On June 11 2013 00:19 TheYango wrote:
Courier control in DotA 2 still doesn't have "resume last delivery" like DotA 1 did, which is a huge wtf to me.
For some reason, this just occurred to me yesterday (when I accidentally stole the courier from someone else).
I have no idea why this isn't in the game (granted, it took me a year to start using the "return to base" function when bottle crowing...but whatever.
Also, displaying mana bars would be a pretty big change.
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I hope we won't see mana bars displayed. It's not that hard to click the hero and check it that way.
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On June 11 2013 00:19 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 00:13 Testuser wrote:On June 11 2013 00:10 Tobberoth wrote:On June 10 2013 23:59 teapoted wrote:On June 10 2013 23:54 Qbek wrote:
See guy, dota is a game of knowledge and decision making, not clicking fast(it matters on some heroes, but no nearly as much as in other competitive games). Shop reduces the amount of clicks required, fair game. Most UI improvements give you info. Info makes the game easier. Now, you can see 2 things on the Ui that you couldn't in dota1, that is ally mana and ulti cd (visible in the scoreboard in dota1, super awkward to use). Both of those would be known to you with perfect communication in your team. How about that People will complain about the things not implemented as making the game easier but are fine with the ones in the game because they realize after a year of playing with them that it isn't that big of a deal. The dead horse has been beaten, but that argument is crap. I mean, ask LoL players how big of a deal denying is, you get used to any change unless it's big enough to make you stop playing the game. If denying was removed from Dota, people would be pissed off about it, but unless it was changed back, it's not like people would still talk about it a year or two down the line. If denying was removed, you don't think people would leave dota or talk about it in a year? I think most would be absolutely furious and lose a lot of faith in icefrog. Denying is a key part of Dota 2 and making all heroes interesting and fun to play. Some Supports get almost no gold in the game and simply provide zoning for the carry and focus on denying, pulling and stacking. Without denying, supports would lose one of the key ways they interact with the enemy team. I can't ever see it being removed. It is counter intuitive as all hell, and make little sense to a new player. But that goes for everything in Dota 2, really.
Yeah, it'd puzzle me too - it just adds so much to the game. So many midlane match-ups heavily rely on who get's level six the first, and that's mostly just denying.
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On June 10 2013 21:37 teapoted wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 21:09 TheKefka wrote:On June 10 2013 20:50 teapoted wrote:On June 10 2013 20:47 TheKefka wrote:On June 10 2013 19:00 teapoted wrote:
Ultimate notification is fine, it shouldn't be something visible on the hero model because not every hero has ravage. It's just another spell.
As for the rest, yes the UI is terrible. And it isn't going to change.
As a Dota 1 purist but at the same time designer I've said since day 1 that they should have dumped the WC3 UI. It simply isn't as important as people think it is to keep the same UI and you can always give people the option to use a classic UI. People talk about 'well they wouldn't use a classic then' because it's a lower field of view, but this isn't an FPS game, you're not getting any more information out of it you're just getting convenience. And people who think it will effect the balance of the game are just crazy, it would make people into better players maybe, but it's still the same game, you can still gather the same information, it's just slightly easier to gather the information.
And I'm not too fuzzed about minor things in the old UI I'd just like something where the developers at Valve can experiment. Because the only step forward from this UI is the top bar for heroes which I think is superior to what any other game does because it allows you to very quickly glance and see what the state is like without having to look at both left and right and do some analyzing over who is who which is often the case with hero portraits on the left.
The rest of the UI is just standard 10 year old stuff. If you had a blank slate there's so much you could do to make learning the game easier, to make basic mechanics smoother.
And this is not even counting the UI from a spectator stand-point. Although I wouldn't be completely surprised if we got more options in spectator mode in the future for things like hiding the entire UI, zoom out (things you can do in console), I wouldn't bet on it because they've gone this "replaceable HUD" model which is just plain silly. They could just implement a slider to manage the size of it at least.Even LoL has this,kinda miss it. No, they can't. They're never going to allow you to scale it because then they would have just scrapped it and made something new. That doesn't make any sense lol 'To you'. Look, if they were willing to scale the UI they would have completely re-designed it. They went into it saying "this is the amount of space we are taking up". And so they designed it that way. So if they are going to allow you to scale it, any designer would say "well we should just redesign it now that we don't have these restrictions".
What the fuck are you on about dude.I'm not saying that they should enable people to completely overhaul the UI.
There is no reason why there shouldn't be a option to scale the UI,hell,you can scale the hero dots on the map which is a far bigger deal than this if you wanna talk about gameplay.
It has literally no effect on gameplay just gives you less irrelevant clutter and more space on the screen for the actual game.
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So how OP is lich if denying is removed from dota?
(OBVIOUSLY I DON'T WANT DENYING REMOVED, this is just an interesting train of thought. Who improves the most?)
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As 'OP' as gangplank was in LoL when he could deny as the only character.
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On June 11 2013 00:52 Sn0_Man wrote:
So how OP is lich if denying is removed from dota?
(OBVIOUSLY I DON'T WANT DENYING REMOVED, this is just an interesting train of thought. Who improves the most?)
Fwiw, Gangplank, a LoL Champ, used to be the only hero that could deny in that game.
It became so incredibly easy to create massive level advantages in the early game, and naturally it was removed shortly after.
In short, Lich would become first ban material, without question.
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EPT
